Charles III: Coronation Information and Musings - Part 1

[Tatiana Maria]

Roya Nikkhah and Hugo Daniel of the Times reported:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...repares-king-charles-for-coronation-l0fhwwh5m
https://archive.is/dWi6P

However, the king is understood to be keen not to make members of other faiths feel excluded during the coronation, and it is thought tweaks to the coronation oath, in which the monarch promises to do their “utmost [to] maintain in the United Kingdom the Protestant reformed religion,” are being considered, in consultation with [Archbishop] Welby.

[...]

Only 25 MPs and 25 peers are to be invited to the service — with the names pulled from a hat. In addition, the current cabinet and former prime ministers will attend. [...]

To pacify those MPs and peers who miss out on an invitation, a special audience with the King over afternoon tea will be held in Westminster Hall, the oldest building on the parliamentary estate, on May 2.

I wonder what tweaks to the coronation oath are being considered by the King and Archbishop, if the reporting is correct. Modifying the words prescribed in the Coronation Oath Act 1688 would require Parliament to act, so my guess is that they are only considering adding another question or two at the end about being inclusive of members of other faiths.

ETA: On the other hand, the parliamentary library's briefing on coronation oaths reveals that "the coronation oath has been modified without statutory authority. The present Queen [Elizabeth II] swore a slightly different version of the oath to the 1689 version" in 1953, so apparently there is precedent for simply ignoring the law.

"25 MPs and 25 peers" suggests that the peers who are to be invited will be members of the House of Lords.

 

[Iain]

I even think that Leonor could be present, along with Felipe and Letizia. After all, she is in the United Kingdom and it would be nice if Leonor's debut at an event with European royalty was at a coronation.
It's true that she has to study for the tests, but she can give up a few hours to be there, and on top of that it's Saturday.
We'll wait and see what they decide, but I don't believe she's there either.

Felipe and Letizia will not be there. Monarchs do not attend the enthronement of other monarchs.

 

[Iain]

Roya Nikkhah and Hugo Daniel of the Times reported:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...repares-king-charles-for-coronation-l0fhwwh5m
https://archive.is/dWi6P



I wonder what tweaks to the coronation oath are being considered by the King and Archbishop, if the reporting is correct. Modifying the words prescribed in the Coronation Oath Act 1688 would require Parliament to act, so my guess is that they are only considering adding another question or two at the end about being inclusive of members of other faiths.

ETA: On the other hand, the parliamentary library's briefing on coronation oaths reveals that "the coronation oath has been modified without statutory authority. The present Queen [Elizabeth II] swore a slightly different version of the oath to the 1689 version" in 1953, so apparently there is precedent for simply ignoring the law.

"25 MPs and 25 peers" suggests that the peers who are to be invited will be members of the House of Lords.

The coronation oath was modefied for George V who refused to take the anti-Catholic version.

Unlike England, most Scottish peers do not sit in the House of Lords, so probably none of them will be there. Likewise with MPS, England has 533 while the other three countries have 117 between them, so again, doesn't look like there will be any MPs from the Celtic nations.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The coronation oath was modefied for George V who refused to take the anti-Catholic version.

Unlike England, most Scottish peers do not sit in the House of Lords, so probably none of them will be there. Likewise with MPS, England has 533 while the other three countries have 117 between them, so again, doesn't look like there will be any MPs from the Celtic nations.

In what year was the anti-Catholic version of the coronation oath written?

 

[Lilyflo]

Boys are pages.

Girls have a different title - maids.

I wonder if it would it look OK to have both pages and maids holding the canopy or just maids? I can't recall who they're replacing - is it pages or Duchesses?

 

[SLV]

The coronation oath was modefied for George V who refused to take the anti-Catholic version.



Unlike England, most Scottish peers do not sit in the House of Lords, so probably none of them will be there. Likewise with MPS, England has 533 while the other three countries have 117 between them, so again, doesn't look like there will be any MPs from the Celtic nations.

I can't believe that there will not be any peers from Scotland and Wales invited. Whether they like it or not, they ARE part of the UK. And have the right to be represented. King Charles has been the PoW for too long, not to give thought to such a thing.

 

[wartenberg7]

I wonder if it would it look OK to have both pages and maids holding the canopy or just maids? I can't recall who they're replacing - is it pages or Duchesses?

Pages (Queen Alexandra) and Maids of Honour (all other Queens Consort and Regnant) do help to handle all things clothes, the train etc. while the four Duchesses (Knights of the Garter at the 1953 coronation) have the task to hold the canopy.
https://www.rct.uk/sites/default/fi...nline/9/0/226317-1320070909.jpg?itok=z5XT3BcK
https://www.rct.uk/collection/40446...lexandra-at-the-coronation-of-king-edward-vii
https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en/...ers-of-queen-mary-1911/nomedium/asset/5246133
https://www.prints-online.com/p/164/queen-canopy-bearers-14133215.jpg.webp

 

[Lilyflo]

Pages (Queen Alexandra) and Maids of Honour (all other Queens Consort and Regnant) do help to handle all things clothes, the train etc. while the four Duchesses (Knights of the Garter at the 1953 coronation) have the task to hold the canopy.
https://www.rct.uk/collection/40446...lexandra-at-the-coronation-of-king-edward-vii
https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en/...ers-of-queen-mary-1911/nomedium/asset/5246133

Thank you

If they aren't sticking with tradition and having Duchesses, I suppose anyone who is tall enough could hold the canopy eg pages and/or maids.

 

[sophie25]

I wish they would release a guest list showing what royals will attend. It's funny that Albert of Monaco spoke weeks ago about how he and the princess were attending yet the invites hadn't been sent out at that point as far as we know. I cannot imagine though that he would have said that unless he was certain of going, it's all a bit strange.

 

[Minister of Court]

I wish they would release a guest list showing what royals will attend. It's funny that Albert of Monaco spoke weeks ago about how he and the princess were attending yet the invites hadn't been sent out at that point as far as we know. I cannot imagine though that he would have said that unless he was certain of going, it's all a bit strange.

I presume that other royal courts were notified before the official invitations were sent out in order to make calendar reservations.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

The coronation oath was modefied for George V who refused to take the anti-Catholic version.

Unlike England, most Scottish peers do not sit in the House of Lords, so probably none of them will be there. Likewise with MPS, England has 533 while the other three countries have 117 between them, so again, doesn't look like there will be any MPs from the Celtic nations.

Wouldn’t that exclude people like The Earl of Erroll (Hereditary Lord High Constable of Scotland) ?

I’m sure a few of them will be there

 

[sophie25]

I presume that other royal courts were notified before the official invitations were sent out in order to make calendar reservations.

Yes I suppose it must have been something like that.

 

[Mbruno]

The coronation oath was modefied for George V who refused to take the anti-Catholic version.

Unlike England, most Scottish peers do not sit in the House of Lords, so probably none of them will be there. Likewise with MPS, England has 533 while the other three countries have 117 between them, so again, doesn't look like there will be any MPs from the Celtic nations.

I am pretty sure the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales will be invited, and the leaders of the SNP and Plaid Cymru in the House of Commons too.


I don't think any MPs will be invited other than party leaders and cabinet ministers.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Felipe and Letizia will not be there. Monarchs do not attend the enthronement of other monarchs.

That is not per se true. Sovereigns have attended the enthronement of the Emperor of Japan, of the Pope, of the King of the Netherlands, of the Grand-Duke of Luxembourg. It is true that usually heirs do attend as they often share the generation, have a relationship or even a friendship with the new to be enthroned monarch.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The coronation oath was modefied for George V who refused to take the anti-Catholic version.

Unlike England, most Scottish peers do not sit in the House of Lords, so probably none of them will be there. Likewise with MPS, England has 533 while the other three countries have 117 between them, so again, doesn't look like there will be any MPs from the Celtic nations.

The oath was modified by Edward VII FOR George V. He didn't want to take it as it was but there wasn't enough time to change it for his coronation but he insisted it be changed for his son.

As for peers - I am not expecting most of them to be in attendance. Earl Spencer, for instance, has already said he isn't expecting an invitation.

The 92 elected peers will probably be represented (and there are Scottish peers among those elected peers) and some of the Life Peers and MPs. I would expect the First Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and maybe past holders of that title along with the Opposition Leaders.

Charles will insist on Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish representation.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I have been reading here and elsewhere about possible children being invited. One comment I have read is that 'no underage children would ever be invited in their own right' and yet in 1953 we have this:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/800/mcs/media/images/67929000/jpg/_67929947_452424.jpg

Clearly The late Queen had no issue with inviting underage children.

She even had an 'underage' as in under the legal age of majority at the time being 21 swearing allegiance. The Duke of Kent was 17 at the time of the coronation and took part as much as his Uncle the Duke of Gloucester did. Princess Alexandra, who was 16 also attended, as did both the Gloucester boys and Prince Michael (although Richard and Michael were the two pages).

 

[Toledo]

From this thread to the Sussex thread I notice there is a mix up or confusion on inviting the Sussex children, and all other grandchildren, to having them included into the event. Be it as seated participants or within the event itself.

For my take, no children within the event. But all the kids should be at the palace for the photos and, those from working royals, at the balcony moment.

On this last one the Wales and Edinburgh children with their parents, plus Princess Anne's family. I'll even add in the Kents since they are a stapple on these events for over half a century to tie in past and present.

The rest of the extensive family, Queen Camilla's included, in another room for the many family photos to memorialize the coronation day.

 

[Iluvbertie]

From this thread to the Sussex thread I notice there is a mix up or confusion on inviting the Sussex children, and all other grandchildren, to having them included into the event. Be it as seated participants or within the event itself.

For my take, no children within the event. But all the kids should be at the palace for the photos and, those from working royals, at the balcony moment.

On this last one the Wales and Edinburgh children with their parents, plus Princess Anne's family. I'll even add in the Kents since they are a stapple on these events for over half a century to tie in past and present.

The rest of the extensive family, Queen Camilla's included, in another room for the many family photos to memorialize the coronation day.

If I understand you properly you would have the Kent's - children and grandchildren but not the Gloucester's - seems unfair to me given the over 50 years service by each of the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester.

Personally I would have no children under 12 present other than George as the future King.

I would only have the Wales' children on the balcony.

I wouldn't have the Edinburgh's or Anne's as that would be unfair on Beatrice and Eugenie who have done nothing wrong. Why should they be punished for the actions of their father? Neither Peter nor Zara are royal let alone working royal, Louise is now an adult and not a working royal and James still at school but you would say to two of the late Queen's grandchildren - you aren't good enough to be here with us - effectively you aren't enough of a family member to be with us while her other six grandchildren are there.

I think the balcony should be quite simple - Charles and Camilla, William and Catherine and George - at a stretch I would include Charlotte and Louis - and that is it. The rest are largely irrelevant to the monarchy so they shouldn't be there.

Charles can have all the pictures he wants with other family members behind the scenes but there is no need for a full balcony anymore. Limit the visual to the essentials.

 

[W.Y.CII]

If they want a good, significant photo from the balcony, the King and the Queen plus the Wales (and children) would be definitely enough.

 

[An Ard Ri]

In what year was the anti-Catholic version of the coronation oath written?

The Accession Declaration Act 1910
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_Declaration_Act_1910

 

[crm2317]

I believe the only children that will be present will be George and Charlotte. The other children we have seen at events in the past as they were present as great grandchildren of the Queen and Prince Philip.

As for the balcony I believe we will see Prince Louis there only.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Will there be postcards of the Coronation?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

There seems to be confusion here between the Coronation Oath and the Accession Declaration. They are distinct.


The Accession Declaration is mandated by the Bill of Rights 1688, which provides the monarch with two options for making the declaration: at their first opening of Parliament, or at their coronation. The text of the declaration was amended by Parliament with the Accession Declaration Act 1910, removing anti-Catholic language. The amended text is:

I [here insert the name of the Sovereign] do solemnly and sincerely in the presence of God profess, testify, and declare that I am a faithful Protestant, and that I will, according to the true intent of the enactments which secure the Protestant succession to the Throne of my Realm, uphold and maintain the said enactments to the best of my powers according to law.​

The Coronation Oath is mandated and set out as follows in the Coronation Oath Act 1688. Note that the script refers to "The King and Queen" because it was written for the joint monarchs King William III and Queen Mary II:

The Arch-Bishop or Bishop shall say,

Will You solemnely Promise and Sweare to Governe the People of this Kingdome of England and the Dominions thereto belonging according to the Statutes in Parlyament Agreed on and the Laws and Customs of the same?

The King and Queene shall say,

I solemnly Promise soe to doe.

Arch Bishop or Bishop,

Will You to Your power cause Law and Justice in Mercy to be Executed in all Your Judgements.

King and Queene,

I will.

Arch Bishop or Bishop.

Will You to the utmost of Your power Maintaine the Laws of God the true Profession of the Gospell and the Protestant Reformed Religion Established by Law? And will You Preserve unto the Bishops and Clergy of this Realme and to the Churches committed to their Charge all such Rights and Priviledges as by Law doe or shall appertaine unto them or any of them.

King and Queene.

All this I Promise to doe.

After this the King and Queene laying His and Her Hand upon the Holy Gospells, shall say,

King and Queene

The things which I have here before promised I will performe and Keepe Soe help me God.

Then the King and Queene shall kisse the Booke.
​

 

[Toledo]

Just for fun we should have a friendly Poll going until the Coronation like
What would you like as spectator?
___ Leave all kids outside of the event(s)?
___ Bring them all in, with diapers and video games to keep them busy?
___ Just let William and Charlote attend, rest stay at the palace?

And when the coronation happens, the one who decides is after all King Charles. The government might be running the show but never forget, he is the star of the show.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The government will decide as it is paying for it. Charles will be given xxxx number of invites and the rest will be the government's decision in conjunction with Charles e.g. which charities will be represented will be a combined decision but the bulk of the invites will be who the government wants there. This is a STATE occasion, not a family one.

 

[Somebody]

Just for fun we should have a friendly Poll going until the Coronation like
What would you like as spectator?
___ Leave all kids outside of the event(s)?
___ Bring them all in, with diapers and video games to keep them busy?
___ Just let William and Charlote attend, rest stay at the palace?

And when the coronation happens, the one who decides is after all King Charles. The government might be running the show but never forget, he is the star of the show.

I am pretty sure William will be present as the heir

Personally, I would advocate for having all the Wales-children present as children of the heir and none of the others of that generation; that seems most straight-forward. The king's nieces and nephews should all be invited imho (including James, who is only a few years older than Savannah but of a different generation in the BRF).

 

[Toledo]

I want George and Charlotte present, maybe her with a little tiara. George could wear a mini military uniform. That would be really cute, XIX Century royals used to dress up the small kids in uniforms too for special events.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

I want George and Charlotte present, maybe her with a little tiara. George could wear a mini military uniform. That would be really cute, XIX Century royals used to dress up the small kids in uniforms too for special events.

I doubt we will see a 7 year old in a tiara. It's done in some countries(Morocco comes to mind) but not in Europe. Perhaps a coronet like Elizabeth and Margaret wore at their father's coronation but we might not even see that. Charles did not wear a coronet at his mother's coronation and he was the direct heir.

 

[wbenson]

Mounties to feature in King’s slimmed-down coronation procession

RCMP riders are to accompany the Household Cavalry as part of the King’s official mounted escort in the procession from Westminster Abbey to Buckingham Palace.

Four Mounties led the Queen’s funeral procession last September in plans approved by the Queen herself during her lifetime.

“While plans are still evolving, we can confirm that an RCMP mounted contingent, similar in size to the one that took part in the funeral procession for Queen Elizabeth, is being planned for the coronation of His Majesty King Charles III,” said Corporal Kim Chamberland, an RCMP spokesperson.

 

[Denville]

I want George and Charlotte present, maybe her with a little tiara. George could wear a mini military uniform. That would be really cute, XIX Century royals used to dress up the small kids in uniforms too for special events.

Its not meant to be cute. Charlotte is too young and shouldnt be there. George should certianly NOT wear a mini Uniform.