Charles III: Coronation Information and Musings - Part 1

[CyrilVladisla]

This will probably be the last coronation of the British monarchs. Oh well. As more things get replaced and changed.

Which newscasters have stated that this is the last coronation?

 

[Iluvbertie]

No one has said this will be the last coronation. It is simple speculation largely by British republicans or those who want to throw away the only thing Britain has left - its traditions and heritage.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Every tradition once started as a novelty.

 

[Denville]

No one has said this will be the last coronation. It is simple speculation largely by British republicans or those who want to throw away the only thing Britain has left - its traditions and heritage.

If that's all Britain has left, then the country's shot.

 

[Durham]

Well yes indeed! Fortunately there's a lot more to old Blighty than just the monarchy!!

 

[valeas]

Well, you certainly didn't get that I was complaining about agnatic primogeniture...

As for Amalia, yeah sure, she's come of age, but she is an awkward 19 year old girl and, judging by the recent Caribbean Tour, she can't handle an engagement on her own. Elisabeth will be 22 this year and has more experience with solo engagements. So, there is a difference, and that's why Amalia is on par with Leonor, IMHO. As for Leonor not attending, who is Don Felipe going to send then? Doña Elena? I bet Felipe's consort would be delighted. ?

I very much agree. Amalia does not seem fit for the job or enjoy any of what we can see. Maybe an occasion like the coronatiion would make her feel even more uncomfortable and unsecure.
I can't see the plan behind her education or if its simply her nature who denies it. She is very different to all other heir in Europe.

Leonor is younger but has given several speeches and acts very professionally instead of Amalia. Has Amalia had any solo engagements yet?

Elisabeth is confident and no doubt she can do it.

 

[Adda]

How very moving that the Chrism Oil has been made with olives from the Monastery of Mary Magdalene, where Princess Alice is buried.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Which newscasters have stated that this is the last coronation?

I’m simply this because the fact that all the bits that used to be part are being removed to accommodate certain sensibilities and tip-toeing is why I say that.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

I very much agree. Amalia does not seem fit for the job or enjoy any of what we can see. Maybe an occasion like the coronatiion would make her feel even more uncomfortable and unsecure.
I can't see the plan behind her education or if its simply her nature who denies it. She is very different to all other heir in Europe.

Leonor is younger but has given several speeches and acts very professionally instead of Amalia. Has Amalia had any solo engagements yet?

Elisabeth is confident and no doubt she can do it.

The Princess of Orange was at the Investiture of her own father, is at every mass public event called King's Day where the royals are engulfed by public, she was solemnly installed into the Council of State of which she is the future president, she has given a live tv broadcast public speech during that Installation, she has visited all four parts of the armed forces including her own tank Regiment Hussars Princess Catharina-Amalia, she has co-operated in a book abour her life, made live Zoom sessions from the palace during Covid and is - in all glanz und gloria - part of the colourful ceremonial events at the annual Princes' Day and yet this Princess of Orange, this gifted university-student politics, psychology, law and economics (PPLE) is not able to attend the ceremony and the festivities in London because "she does not seem fit for the job" ????

 

[lucien]

Amalia does not seem fit for the job?Seems to me some are not fit to write where they know next to nothing about.!

Stick with HM Coronation,where we all look forward to

 

[lucien]

The Princess of Orange can perfectly handle an engagement on her own. By the way: no any senior royal is "on their own" as they are always accompanied by courtiers and security. When the Princess of Orange would travel to London, she would be accompanied by one or two Hofdames (ladies-in-waiting) and a Kamerheer (chamberlain) or a particulier secretaris, she would have a fleet of security around her, at the airport she would be welcomed by her father's Ambassador in London and have residence in his residence in Hyde Park (if not given accomodation in a palace) and use the Netherlands' Embassy's fleet of cars (if not provided for by the hosts). And at Coronation Day the British Household would assign one of their courtiers as escort to the Princess, so that she will always have a "guide" so to say.

Indeed!That is how things go....and only that way!..Not fit for the job somebody wrote here.[.....]

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Here is a 1953 Queen Elizabeth II official coronation festivities souvenir book.
http://www.etsy.com/listing/1378310245/vintage-1953-queen-elizabeth-ii-official
Will there be a King Charles III official coronation festivities souvenir book?

 

[CyrilVladisla]

What is the Anointing Ceremony?

 

[LauraS3514]

What is the Anointing Ceremony?

It is this anointing that separates the UK monarchy from its European colleagues and, I believe, why "routine" abdication has remained off the table. The closest parallel is the Norwegian consecration.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It is this anointing that separates the UK monarchy from its European colleagues and, I believe, why "routine" abdication has remained off the table. The closest parallel is the Norwegian consecration.

The Coronation Ceremony is almost a copy-paste from the Inthronisation Ceremony of Roman-Catholic, later Anglican bishops.

That is also why in other European monarchies, bar the Vatican, these coronations are ended: the famous Separation of Church and State ("the State has no religion").

In the UK bishops from the Church of England still have seats in Parliament, which is impossible to imagine in the rest of Europe. This whole rite, with prayers, blessing and anointment, is to be seen with the Inthronisation of new Popes.

 

[lucien]

The Coronation Ceremony is almost a copy-paste from the Inthronisation Ceremony of Roman-Catholic, later Anglican bishops.

That is also why in other European monarchies, bar the Vatican, these coronations are ended: the famous Separation of Church and State ("the State has no religion").

In the UK bishops from the Church of England still have seats in Parliament, which is impossible to imagine in the rest of Europe. This whole rite, with prayers, blessing and anointment, is to be seen with the Inthronisation of new Popes.

That about sums it up yes...Far too many clergy revelling in their wide colourfull ropes,really......a travesty in most countries in regard to an Inthronisation,seperate the State from the Church,by all means..It is 2023 AD,not BC.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

The Coronation Ceremony is almost a copy-paste from the Inthronisation Ceremony of Roman-Catholic, later Anglican bishops.

That is also why in other European monarchies, bar the Vatican, these coronations are ended: the famous Separation of Church and State ("the State has no religion").

In the UK bishops from the Church of England still have seats in Parliament, which is impossible to imagine in the rest of Europe. This whole rite, with prayers, blessing and anointment, is to be seen with the Inthronisation of new Popes.

Does Denmark not also have an official church? I'm not sure about the other Scandinavian kingdoms.

 

[JR76]

That is also why in other European monarchies, bar the Vatican, these coronations are ended: the famous Separation of Church and State ("the State has no religion").

That's not entirely correct. In Norway (1905/2012) and Sweden (1873/2000) the last monarch was crowned more than a century before the separation of state and church. Denmark still has a state church, but their last anointing ceremony was performed in 1840.
That said it's going to be interesting to see if the blessing ceremony for the future King Haakon VIII in the Nidaros Cathedral will be performed in the same form as for his father and grandfather given the changed legal status of the church.

Does Denmark not also have an official church? I'm not sure about the other Scandinavian kingdoms.

The Lutheran Church of Denmark is the state supported church in Denmark while it's sister churches in Norway and Sweden are no longer state churches. Both still has many ties to the state and their respective royal families.

 

[Mbruno]

Does Denmark not also have an official church? I'm not sure about the other Scandinavian kingdoms.

The (Lutheran) Church of Denmark, as far as I understand, is an established church in the sense that the Queen is the supreme authority and church ordinances have to be adopted by Parliament ( although I was told that, in practice, such ordinances are never changed). But there is no coronation or annointment of the monarch (at least not anymore).

The Church of Sweden was separated from the state, meaning that the church is now completely self-governed through its General Synod and its archbishops, bishops and parishes. Certain elements of the church constitution, however, including the obligation that the church must follow a Lutheran doctrine and be organized in parishes and dioceses, are defined in an act of the Swedish Parliament, which, I believe, can be changed only by Parliament itself.

Similarly, the Church of Norway is also self-governed now, but retains a constitutional status of "national church" and receives public funding.

Both in Denmark, in Norway and in Sweden, the monarch must be a member of the respective national Lutheran church. And, in Sweden, in addition, all "princes and princesses of the Royal House" must be raised in the Lutheran faith adopted by the Church of Sweden and "members of the Royal Family" (I am quoting the Act of Succession) who do not profess that faith are excluded from the line of succession.

So my impression as an outside observer is that technically Denmark is the only country with an established church in the sense of a church that is under state government through the civilian authorities, but the churches in Norway and Sweden are still "semiofficial" in the sense that they are partly regulated by public law and the monarch must be a member of the church.

 

[Saragli]

The Scottish/Norwegian models are what I would really like to see for England next. Remove it as the state church, remove the bishops from parliament, but keep it as a "national" church with symbolic links to the state and some financing for places like Westminster Abbey. This would allow an historical connection to continue and for the coronation/anointing to continue in its current form.

 

[Kronprinz]

Duke and Duchess of Sussex receive official invite to coronation of King Charles, couple's representative indicates

Sky News

Harry and Meghan have been invited to the King's coronation, their spokesperson has indicated, despite tensions with Buckingham Palace over bombshell disclosures made by the prince.

"An immediate decision on whether the duke and duchess will attend will not be disclosed by us at this time."

 

[muriel]

Duke and Duchess of Sussex receive official invite to coronation of King Charles, couple's representative indicates

Sky News

I had no doubt that H&M would be invited, I am glad it has been made public.

Personally, I see no merit in this game of not revealing just yet whether H&M would accept the invite or not. If Harry had any sense, he would be there for what is going to be one of the biggest days of his father's life.

 

[Alison H]

There've been some claims in the press that there's "e-mail correspondence" going on about whether or not they'll attend. I hope there isn't. The King doesn't need to be dragged into negotiations about it. Either they come or they don't - let them decide.

 

[Asteria12]

The Scottish/Norwegian models are what I would really like to see for England next. Remove it as the state church, remove the bishops from parliament, but keep it as a "national" church with symbolic links to the state and some financing for places like Westminster Abbey. This would allow an historical connection to continue and for the coronation/anointing to continue in its current form.

How likely would it be for England to adopt this?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Not once Charles III has signed his coronation oath unless he is going to break it (but he has a track record of breaking oaths taken in church so that wouldn't be a surprise). He will be promising to uphold the status of the CoE at the coronation ... which is a major reason for it being a religious ceremony. He will not only be crowned as King - that can happen anywhere - but he will be crowned as the Supreme Governor of the CoE and that has to be in a church.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Not once Charles III has signed his coronation oath unless he is going to break it (but he has a track record of breaking oaths taken in church so that wouldn't be a surprise). He will be promising to uphold the status of the CoE at the coronation ... which is a major reason for it being a religious ceremony. He will not only be crowned as King - that can happen anywhere - but he will be crowned as the Supreme Governor of the CoE and that has to be in a church.

But when Parliament ends the special position of the Church of England, ends it to be the "State Church", then King William or King George will possibly no longer be the Supreme Governor as being the head of state of a modern and secular country ("the State has no religion") is hard to combine with the headship of a Church.

 

[Claire]

I want to create some anointing oil - did anyone see an article where it will tell you exactly the quanities of the essential oils?

 

[Iluvbertie]

But when Parliament ends the special position of the Church of England, ends it to be the "State Church", then King William or King George will possibly no longer be the Supreme Governor as being the head of state of a modern and secular country ("the State has no religion") is hard to combine with the headship of a Church.

Unless the legislation is passed between accession and coronation passing such legislation will require the monarch to break his/her coronation oath.

That is why it is so hard to change as the time frame is limited and with Charles not even waiting a year it could be even shorter in future making it even harder.

Disestablishment is not as easy in England as it is in other countries because of the way the laws etc have been set up - deliberately to make it difficult - basically to force a monarch to choose between the coronation oath and the throne.

 

[An Ard Ri]

I want to create some anointing oil - did anyone see an article where it will tell you exactly the quanities of the essential oils?

Olive Oil seems to be the principal ingredient with sesame, rose, jasmine, cinnamon, neroli, benzoin, amber and orange blossom

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/04/uk/king-charles-iii-coronation-oil-gbr-intl/index.html

 

[CyrilVladisla]

What type of flowers will be used at the Coronation? ??