Service of Thanksgiving for the Duke of Edinburgh; 29 March 2022

[Viv]

I would expect the guests to be able to read the programme and follow what it said. They had already followed the programme to stand and sit as appropriate but couldn't read the end of the event instructions - sorry I blame them for not reading the programme that clearly tells them to wait. Basic bad manners for any guest to not read the instructions and follow them.

As I said in a previous post: don’t expect senior royals to read the small
print of such programmes! They are used to being “handled” according to a certain measure of precedence when attending royal events abroad, whatever the format! The concept of precedence is in their DNA, it runs in their veins to a degree that would baffle the rest of us.
Another thing: When to stand or sit during a CofE service is a no-brainer
with the BRF in front of you! Even I have figured out when to stand in a CofE service without looking at an instruction sheet

 

[MARG]

The correct title for Nicola Sturgeon is First Minister of Scotland.
What makes you think she was snubbed, she maybe was taking the opportunity to network with other politicians there have been very few face to face meetings for 2 years. Or maybe she sensed there would be a crush and held back.
Why does every action or deed need to be a snub or a fault. Why does there need to be a sinister message in every action.
[.....]

Nice to hear! It shows the Cof and Anglican services around the world are all the same and I bet HM told them to keep the homily short as was her husband's preferred service. Our Vestry told the last new Vicar that we wanted a good, rousing sermon of 10 minutes or less!

As to the giant muddle at the end, I can only concur that royals tend to be "handled" rather than read the footnotes. It must have caused utter horror for those who were organising them when they found that basically, they were trying to herd cats!

I have to admit that I find the interminable ferreting for hidden meanings in every royal move irritating and place the blame firmly on the proliferation of so-called body language experts eager to share their inarguable insight on any given subject irritating in the extreme. Next thing you know we'll be getting them reading glass balls, checking out chicken entrails or having their star signs interpreted. ?

HM walked up the aisle on the arm of her third child who then promptly sat in the chair across to aisle from Anne and next to Edward in what was clear family precedence and I am sure all the senior royals, family and friends expected that especially since Covid has denied many of us the rites and rituals we observe throughout our lives.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

No one has longer been a royal consort than Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark. And what a royal consort he was! Due to the pandemic (and the late Prince's own wishes) there was no State Funeral in the usual form. To compensate this, a special service was held.

Likely we were wrong-footed with the expectation that this service would be alike a proper ceremonial royal funeral. That was not the case and maybe that is what has wrong-footed many of us, not expecting the seemingly "under-organized" character of the service.

 

[Iluvbertie]

As I said in a previous post: don’t expect senior royals to read the small
print of such programmes! They are used to being “handled” according to a certain measure of precedence when attending royal events abroad, whatever the format! The concept of precedence is in their DNA, it runs in their veins to a degree that would baffle the rest of us.
Another thing: When to stand or sit during a CofE service is a no-brainer
with the BRF in front of you! Even I have figured out when to stand in a CofE service without looking at an instruction sheet

It was not 'small print'. It was the same size as the rest of the print. Failure to read it shows an arrogance that isn't acceptable in any human being. The fact that royals need to be 'handled' shows that they aren't actually able to cope in basic situations i.e. they are too dumb to be able to do what I would expect an average 7 year old to do - to READ the programme they are given and to follow the written instructions. They showed that they are rude and arrogant and poorly educated in basic human behaviour.

 

[W.Y.CII]

Wow. "Rude and arrogant". Okay.

 

[Izzie]

Wow..
So now the foreign royals are rude, arrogant, illiterate and stupid. Well maybe next time the apparently superior BRF throw a family shindig they should not bother to demean themselves with the presence of such peasants. Just get some seat fillers instead. That way they can ensure their superior existence and the foreign royals can get on with their business.

Wow. And yes I responded to that comment in kind. Talk about rude and arrogant. Apologies. And with that I'm out.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

It was not 'small print'. It was the same size as the rest of the print. Failure to read it shows an arrogance that isn't acceptable in any human being. The fact that royals need to be 'handled' shows that they aren't actually able to cope in basic situations i.e. they are too dumb to be able to do what I would expect an average 7 year old to do - to READ the programme they are given and to follow the written instructions. They showed that they are rude and arrogant and poorly educated in basic human behaviour.

Margarethe. Beatrix. Carl Gustaf. "Rude and arrogant".
Okay...

 

[tommy100]

At the end of the day, if foreign royals are upset at having to wait for a short time while Philip's family go first then that would reflect poorly on them - personally I suspect while it may have surprised them at the time, it will not have bothered them in the long run. There is always a perception the BRF don't have much time for other Royal Families yet here we see that basically every European RF was present, I'm sure if they felt snubbed or ignored by the BRF at other events in the past they would by now simply have chosen not to attend the service. We hear many accounts of private interactions between the BRF and foreign royals - Queen Silvia visiting Highgrove in private, Daisy visiting on her annual London trip etc. We saw how familiar junior members of the BRF -in Zara and Peter - were in chatting to Anne Marie and Albert so clearly they do see each other and have more interactions than we know. Yes things didn't seem to go to plan on the day, these things happen. The same happened after Fabiola's funeral in Belgium yet no one seems to be suggesting the other European families don't visit them and should have felt snubbed.

As for the actual service, I thought it so telling and touching that a DofE Gold Award winner was one of the only to speak (other than the religious side of things), very fitting as a sign and remembrance of how successful the awards have been. I loved that it was a short service - both for HM but also likely as all knew Philip hated long services. I only just noticed that the Order of Service was also printed largely in green as nod to Philip's colour as well I assume, another lovely tribute to him.
We always seem to hear "how involved HM" has been in things and I always take it with a pinch of salt as on occasions it really seems to be a matter of doing what is always done, follow the usual pattern of things etc. But thinking about it of course HM must have been so involved in this as this event was unexpected and unprecedented in that Philip of course was always planned to have a large funeral and then likely like the Queen Mother a service of thanksgiving after a longer period of time. It seems some of the elements of the Thanksgiving service were originally designed for Philip's funeral but Covid made it impossible. And I hadn't really thought about Philip's family who wouldn't have been able to be there when he was laid to rest, of course HM would want to plan something for them too at Windsor so they could all be together in remembering Philip as they hadn't been able to attend his funeral. It was a well put together service I thought and the events after - Philip's family to Windsor, Foreign Royals to Clarence House, seemed lovely additions.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Wow..
So now the foreign royals are rude, arrogant, illiterate and stupid. Well maybe next time the apparently superior BRF throw a family shindig they should not bother to demean themselves with the presence of such peasants. Just get some seat fillers instead. That way they can ensure their superior existence and the foreign royals can get on with their business.

Wow. And yes I responded to that comment in kind. Talk about rude and arrogant. Apologies. And with that I'm out.

If the BRF did the same thing at a foreign royal event I would describe them the same way - it is good manners for EVERYONE to read the programme and to follow the instructions.

Obviously most people here seem to think that foreign royals (to Britain) shouldn't have to follow basic good manners .... Sorry but I don't care who they are - royals or commoners - EVERYONE should read the programme and follow the instructions - nothing to do with whether they are British or not-British. I hold them ALL to the same standards I expect from 7 year old children.

 

[crm2317]

I feel like people are reading way to much into this!

I’m sure that none of them minded having to wait and laughed it off. Perhaps they did read the programme and simply misunderstood. Perhaps once the Queen’s children and their families had departed they thought that it was their turn? Maybe one of the ushers inside the abbey made a mistake?

Either way I don’t see why people should get themselves wound up going around in circles making assumptions about people we don’t actually know personally!

 

[wartenberg7]

1. This was a FAMILY event not a state occasion so Philip's close family were seated more prominently than more distant family. Philip's four children were in the front row for instance and not according to the normal seating we see for BRF events with the Cambridge's seated more prominently than say Anne who is normally, these days behind the Cambridge's, York's and Wessex's.

2. As it wasn't a state occasion the streets leading to and from the Abbey weren't closed - as they will be for the Jubilee service. London is often gridlocked and traffic was bad on the day of the service which is why the cars/coaches arrived in the order they did.

3. Had the foreign royals followed the issued programme they would have remained in their seats until their transport was ready for them.

This was NOT strictly a family occasion! The government has been invited, too, and Boris (as far as I know not a family member...) sat first row. And State Trumpeters at a family memorial service with the national anthem being sung at the end of the service?! Come on!
Foreign Royals never just get up when it occurs to them, but when they are invited by an usher to do so. Before that, nobody gets up. Otherwise everything goes chaotic like it did here.

 

[Iluvbertie]

The reason it got chaotic was that the foreign royals did get up before they were told to do so - the programme was clear - to remain seated until told to do so but they moved obviously before things were ready for them to do so.

This was a family event because it wasn't a STATE occasion. Families are allowed to invite people who aren't family to family events and when a person is the Head of State the State Trumpeters etc can be asked to play. That doesn't make it anything more than a family occasion.

 

[wartenberg7]

I would expect the guests to be able to read the programme and follow what it said. They had already followed the programme to stand and sit as appropriate but couldn't read the end of the event instructions - sorry I blame them for not reading the programme that clearly tells them to wait. Basic bad manners for any guest to not read the instructions and follow them.

"bad manners" of people who have been so embarressedly misguided by their "hosts"..?!

It is the resposibility of the protocol of the hosting country, monarchy or republic, that invited persons are properly ushered to their seats and to take care of when and how they depart. That´s always been that way and it will probably stay that way. But it was the first time I can think of that a mishap like this happend to the british court, so let´s hope this won´t happen again.

 

[wartenberg7]

The reason it got chaotic was that the foreign royals did get up before they were told to do so - the programme was clear - to remain seated until told to do so but they moved obviously before things were ready for them to do so.
This was a family event because it wasn't a STATE occasion. Families are allowed to invite people who aren't family to family events and when a person is the Head of State the State Trumpeters etc can be asked to play. That doesn't make it anything more than a family occasion.

I didn´t claim it was a STATE occasion, but it was NOT a private one, too! Protocol is not that black and white or simple as we think!
At least, it was the OFFICIAL memorial service of the late Duke. And the Prime and First ministers didn´t come as "Boris" and "Nicola", but in their capacity as head of their respective british governments. And HM Queen Margrethe, for instance, was not invited as distant cousin Daisy, but as The Queen of Denmark and by that the official representative of her country, just like all the other official guests and heads of state present!

 

[Viv]

At the end of the day, if foreign royals are upset at having to wait for a short time while Philip's family go first then that would reflect poorly on them - personally I suspect while it may have surprised them at the time, it will not have bothered them in the long run. .

Tommy100, I don’t believe for one second that any of the foreign royals felt
snubbed; they know how things (normally) work when attending BRF events. However this time, at least some of them would have appreciated if the logistics had been a tad better !
Anyway, we don’t know what information was given to the foreign royal courts about e.g. transportation! I doubt that it was something like
“Westminster” tube station is just around the corner”

 

[wartenberg7]

Tommy100, I don’t believe for one second that any of the foreign royals felt
snubbed; they know how things (normally) work when attending BRF events. However this time, at least some of them would have appreciated if the logistics had been a tad better !
Anyway, we don’t know what information was given to the foreign royal courts about e.g. transportation! I doubt that it was something like
“Westminster” tube station is just around the corner”

Agree, Viv. They are too professional to be snubbed. Still I wished, at least those elderly people with walking difficulties, didn´t had to be left waiting there for so long.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Actually this thread is a compliment to the usually high standard British Court. Around Queen Fabiola's funeral we have seen chaotic situations. But hey... It are the Belgians, you know. What else to expect from them?

But that this confusion occurs at an usually impeccably organised British royal event is why it surprised so many posters. Especially as this was not for a "nobody" but for a record breaking and popular royal consort.

 

[rominet09]

Actually this thread is a compliment to the usually high standard British Court. Around Queen Fabiola's funeral we have seen chaotic situations. But hey... It are the Belgians, you know. What else to expect from them?

But that this confusion occurs at an usually impeccably organised British royal event is why it surprised so many posters. Especially as this was not for a "nobody" but for a record breaking and popular royal consort.

What do you mean "it are the Belgians.....them ?"
I find this very offensive as a Belgian myself??

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It was a comparison of the Belgian and British royal courts' ability to organize royal events, rather than the Belgian and British people. Duc_et_Pair's informative posts documented many instances of less than ideal organization of royal events, including the recent Austrian-Belgian state visit. (Another example).

 

[Mbruno]

:

HM walked up the aisle on the arm of her third child who then promptly sat in the chair across to aisle from Anne and next to Edward in what was clear family precedence and I am sure all the senior royals, family and friends expected that especially since Covid has denied many of us the rites and rituals we observe throughout our lives.

I don't think they were bothered by this, but I don't think they expected it either as it is a departure from precedent. As I noted, at the Queen Mother's funeral, which I see as an analogous situation, family members were seated in back rows and foreign royals were seated in front rows next to the senior members of the British royal family. That is how they are always seated when invited to Westminster Abbey events, regardless of whether it s a state event or not (neither the Queen Mother's funeral nor William and Kate's wedding were state events). As someone mentioned, it is somewhat shocking to see the King of Spain sitting behind a great-great-grandchild of King George V, especially when the King of Spain also happens to be Prince Philip's first cousin twice removed.

It is uncharacteristic of the British Court to depart from precedent. Is that also part of the alleged transition to the next reign?

This was a family event because it wasn't a STATE occasion. Families are allowed to invite people who aren't family to family events and when a person is the Head of State the State Trumpeters etc can be asked to play. That doesn't make it anything more than a family occasion.

The funny thing is that, even if you want to frame it that way, many invited foreign royals, with the possible exception of the Sovereign Prince of Monaco ( I don't know about the Serbians and the Bulgarians, or the Dutch) ARE family. As I noted above, King Felipe and Margaretha, Custodian of the Romanian Crown, are Prince Philip's first cousins twice removed (grandchildren of a first cousin of his?); King Carl Gustaf is his third cousin (both being great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria and Prince Albert); Queen Margrethe and Queen Anne-Marie are his second cousins once removed (daughters of a second cousin of his?); and King Philippe is his second cousin twice removed (grandson of a second cousin?), if I got it right (those family trees can be rather confusing). BTW, Queen Margrethe and Queen Anne-Marie are also Prince Philip's third cousins in the Victoria line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_descendants_of_Queen_Victoria_and_of_King_Christian_IX

 

[Iluvbertie]

"bad manners" of people who have been so embarressedly misguided by their "hosts"..?!

It is the resposibility of the protocol of the hosting country, monarchy or republic, that invited persons are properly ushered to their seats and to take care of when and how they depart. That´s always been that way and it will probably stay that way. But it was the first time I can think of that a mishap like this happend to the british court, so let´s hope this won´t happen again.

They were given WRITTEN instructions in the programme.

[.....]

They left BEFORE the BRF and so found themselves at the door. They didn't follow the clearly written instructions. What more should the hosts have done - have someone sit on them to ensure they don't move?

 

[Stefan]

I don't think they were bothered by this, but I don't think they expected it either as it is a departure from precedent. As I noted, in the Queen Mother's funeral, which I see as an analogous situation, family members were seated in back rows and foreign royals were seated in front rows across the aisle from the senior members of the British royal family. That is how they are always seated when invited to Westminster Abbey events, regardless of whether it s a state event or not (neither the Queen Mother's funeral nor William and Kate's wedding were state events). As someone mentioned, it is somewhat shocking to see the King of Spain sitting behind a great-great-grandchild of King George V who barely has any kinship to Prince Philip, especially when the King of Spain also happens to be Prince Philip's first cousin twice removed.

At the funeral of the Queen Mother the foreign royals sat where this time Andrew, Edward and Sophie and their children sat and in the rows behind.

And the same for the Cambridge Wedding. Not opposite the British Royals.
of course the extended british h RF has become very large by now. Wonder why the don't use the space up the stairs near the High Altar anymore as this was until around 2000 used to seat the close british RF (the Queen and her children and cousins).

 

[Mbruno]

At the funeral of the Queen Mother the foreign royals sat where this time Adrew, Edward and Sophie and their chuildren sat and in the rows behind.

And the same for the Cambridge Wedding. Not opposide the birish Royals.
of course the extended brith Rf has become very large by now. Wodner why the don't use the space up the stairs near the High Altar anymore as this was until around 2000 used to seat the close british Rf (the Queen and her chidlren and cousins).

That is what I meant and I actually posted a video link yesterday showing the exact seating. When I wrote "across the aisle", I didn't mean opposite, but next to with a short gap in between the two groups of seats. I apologize if it was indeed badly worded. I am very bad at giving spatial instructions. That is why I never do it when someone asks me on the street.

 

[Stefan]

That is what I meant and I actually posted a video link yesterday showing the exact seating. When I wrote "across the aisle", I didn't mean opposite, but next to with a short gap in between the two groups of seats. I apologize if it was indeed badly worded. I am very bad at giving spatial instructions. That is why I never do it when someone asks me on the street.

Ok. Sorry then. Probably i missed yesterdays post from you as there is still so much discussion going on in this Thread.

 

[Alison H]

I'm sure that we've all been to umpteen things where we haven't bothered to read the small print properly.

I would have expected there to be ushers to advise people on when it was time for them to leave, and to make sure that no-one headed towards the door before they were supposed to. Regardless of whether or not it was a state event and there were issues of precedence, when there are large numbers of people in a building, you don't want them all trying to get out at once. Even if you go to a Premier League football match, there'll usually be an announcement saying that the away fans shouldn't try to leave the stadium until the home fans have all gone. Something seems to have gone wrong, or not been planned very well.

Given how many big events have taken place at Westminster Abbey over the years, it's surprising that there wasn't better organisation, but it's really not that big a deal. Far worse things happen in life than having to wait in a doorway for a few minutes, even if you're a king or queen, and I doubt that any of them were that bothered about it.

 

[W.Y.CII]

Just a question, maybe I miss something: why it must be the foreign royals' fault if they left at a wrong timing? Why it must be their own decision if they left at a wrong timing?

I rewatched some clips and saw some officer greeted them during the arrival and followed them into the abbey, and when they left, there was some officer leading them as well (I believe it's the same person based on the uniform, I could be wrong though). I assume that person is responsible for the foreign royals group and guiding them.

BTW the foreign royals' aide-de-camp even left before the Wessex. I don't know what's happening here.

Even though it's rare for BRF, it's completely understandable if there's some mishap. But blaming everything on the guests and calling them "rude and arrogant" just doesn't make sense.

Arrival: the gentleman stood next to the gate

Departure: the gentleman walked before Philippe and Mathilde

 

[lula]

The funny thing is that, even if you want to frame it that way, many invited foreign royals, with the possible exception of the Sovereign Prince of Monaco ( I don't know about the Serbians and the Bulgarians, or the Dutch) ARE family. As I noted above, King Felipe and Margaretha, Custodian of the Romanian Crown, are Prince Philip's first cousins twice removed (grandchildren of a first cousin of his?)

King Felipe and Prince Philip were not just family through the Greek line, they were family as descendants of Queen Victoria and the Battenberg-Mountbatten. So they were probably two of the current royals with more family ties from different branches.

Victoria Eugenia and Alice
https://64.media.tumblr.com/1649b9f.../3c803999b0428c6bf5de6b9b0ec0ddec695bf139.jpg

 

[Mbruno]

King Felipe and Prince Philip were not just family through the Greek line, they were family as descendants of Queen Victoria and the Battenberg-Mountbatten. So they were probably two of the current royals with more family ties from different branches.

Victoria Eugenia and Alice
https://64.media.tumblr.com/1649b9f.../3c803999b0428c6bf5de6b9b0ec0ddec695bf139.jpg

Correct, but I assume the Greek line via Queen Sofia is the closest one in degree of kinship ?

In the Victoria line for example, King Felipe would be Prince Philip's third cousin once removed. I would have to look up the Battenberg line, but maybe second cousin twice removed? I believe Prince Philip and Don Juan, Count of Barcelona, were second cousins because Queen Ena and Princess Andrew were both granddaughters of Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine, thus first cousins.

I have a question, however, to the British Royal Family experts. Who is/are the officer(s) in the British Royal Household who would be normally responsible for organizing an event like Prince Philip's service of thanksgiving? There have been some changes in leadership in the Household recently and maybe that explains why protocol was so different on this occasion.

 

[An Ard Ri]

What a shame Lady Pamela Hicks was unable to attend.

 

[maria-olivia]

His closest Cousin alive Prince Michel of Greece was sad not to be between the 30 Family Members the day of his Funerals , he should have represented Greece.
He did not attend the Thanksgiving ?