King Charles and Queen Camilla

[HRH Kerry]

I believe it does! That would be such a big waste of time and money to dedicate so much effort to undo what is automatic.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Thanks for that Jo.

His comments follow confirmation from the Department for Constitutional Affairs that she would become Queen when Charles succeeds to the throne....
Constitutional Affairs Minister Christopher Leslie confirmed her future status when questioned in the Commons....
Mr Leslie said that it was not a morganatic marriage

I think that clears up any confusion!

And one should not forget (I posted that information before..) that Charles is a historian and a dynast of one of the oldest monarchies in the world. So there is a certain chance that for him his title of "Duke of Cornwall" is more important than his title of "Prince of Wales" - because the Duke of Cornwall is necessary the heir direct of the souverain's body while the Prince of Wales could be a grandson...

 

[branchg]

So what happened in the 1936 act when Edward abdicated? What does that act say with regards to Camilla?

It says the wife of the King is Queen Consort and nothing else unless Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth nations agree to it. The rights, titles and precedents of the monarchy rest with Parliament, not the Crown.

Since Edward VIII could not win consent to make Wallis his lawful wife, he abdicated rather than force a constitutional crisis over the issue. In law, The Sovereign can marry anyone they wish and they do not need permission from the Government. In practice, the consent of the Commons is needed since his wife becomes Queen.

Camilla is already married to The Prince of Wales, which required the approval of The Queen and the Government. The consent of the people through Parliament was obtained and she is now in line to become Queen Consort.

That's the end of it.

 

[Elspeth]

Frothy, she is not "known as" The Duchess of Cornwall, she IS the Duchess of Cornwall. When she married Charles, she became Princess of Wales, Duchess of Cornwall and Rothesay, Countess of Chester & Carrick, et. all as the wife of the titleholder. She simply is choosing to be styled by one of her titles, rather than another.

If Prince Charles had no other titles, Camilla would be HRH The Princess Charles at the present time (which is technically her rank and title in the UK through marriage). Once he becomes King, there is no other title for her to use but Queen. Since the wife of the King is Queen, Parliament must consent to the use of a lesser rank and title as there is no precedent for it.

It's the same thing as in 1936 with Edward VIII.

Well, they went through some idiotic contortions in 1937 to pretend that renouncing the throne had included giving up his HRH, so George VI very graciously created him HRH again with the provision that his wife wasn't to share it (so much for the "no morganatic marriage" line he'd been fed while still king, but whatever ). If they can pull off that level of nonsense and get away with it, I expect they can find some legal pretzel to twist into "HRH the Princess Consort" if they really feel they need to.

 

[branchg]

Well, they went through some idiotic contortions in 1937 to pretend that renouncing the throne had included giving up his HRH, so George VI very graciously created him HRH again with the provision that his wife wasn't to share it (so much for the "no morganatic marriage" line he'd been fed while still king, but whatever ). If they can pull off that level of nonsense and get away with it, I expect they can find some legal pretzel to twist into "HRH the Princess Consort" if they really feel they need to.

Well, that was bit tricky from a legal view since Edward was able to marry Wallis only after the Act of Abdication was passed and he did not need permission from the King under the Royal Marriages Act.

Technically, the letters patent of Victoria, Edward VII and George V with regard to the title, rank and styles of the royal family applied to those within the line of succession as descendants of George II. While there is no question Edward remained a son of the sovereign after the Abdication, he still was subject to the fount of honour with regard to his titles and honours.

The real problem with the 1937 Letters Patent was it basically created a morganatic marriage where none had ever existed before for the UK. But since The Duke had renounced his right to the succession on behalf of himself and his future descendants, it could be argued his wife and children had no right to be HRH.

Either way, the case of Wallis and David does not apply to Charles and Camilla since they are already married equally and share royal rank. There is no doubt Camilla will be entitled to become HM The Queen when the time comes.

 

[Frothy]

No, Branch Q, she is "known as" the Duchess of Cornwall and that is not from me, it is a direct quote from royal.gov.uk, the official website of the royal family.

"Known as" is important, and relates directly to the question of her style after Charles's accession. Legally and technically the woman is Princess of Wales, but she might as well not be, because she is only and forever and everywhere "known as" the Duchess of Cornwall - a lesser style she holds. Thus, her status is unquestionably diminished in the eyes of the world, for she is the first princess of wales in history to have this dubious distinction.

I don't know why you, branch, skydragon and others, keep repeating that legislation would be needed to deny her her rank as Queen. We all know that and I have posted to that effect many times. It is confirmed by the spokeswoman for the Dept of Constitutional Affairs.

It is also absolutely irrelevant as to whether or not she will ever be known as "Queen Camilla" and whether, cf the title of the thread, it will be "King Charles and Queen Camilla" (as I understand it you are still arguing that this will be the case?) or, as it will in fact be, as both the government and the royal family say, "King Charles and HRH the Princess Consort".

It will be the latter.

Just as at present with Camilla and Lady Louise, Camilla then will posess technical rights and styles that will not be used. Her status will effectively be immensely reduced.

She is the princess of Wales but is forever "known as" the Duchess of Cornwall.
She will be the queen but will forever be "known as" HRH the Princess Consort, a style that simple letters patent can gazette her with.

So - King Charles and Princess Consort, and no legislation needed for her to be known that way. You don't have to take it from me. I have quoted the government and the royal family both stating that that's how it will be.

 

[Frothy]

PS - I agree that there is no doubt she will be entitled to be known as Queen when the time comes. Unfortunately, there also is very little doubt that she will not be known that way, but will be known as HRH the Princess Consort - unless Charles steps up and stops the madness

Edit to add: she also woulds not hold the title of Queen in her own right - it is dependent on her marriage to the King. It would be quite possible to gazette her, cf Philip and cf Maxima in the Netherlands, as an own-right Princess of the UK. She could then use that sua juris lesser title instead of her married one.

 

[branchg]

Edit to add: she also woulds not hold the title of Queen in her own right - it is dependent on her marriage to the King. It would be quite possible to gazette her, cf Philip and cf Maxima in the Netherlands, as an own-right Princess of the UK. She could then use that sua juris lesser title instead of her married one.

Wrong. Once she becomes Queen Camilla, only Parliament could remove her rank and title, even if the King divorced her. Read up on what happened to Queen Caroline to understand the precedents.

 

[Frothy]

No, you are wrong; Queen Caroline was never divorced from King George IV but was merely estranged and therefore retained her title of Queen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caroline_of_Brunswick#Queen_Consort

Her estranged husband's accession to the Throne in 1820 brought Caroline back to Britain. She had declined monetary offers to stay away. When she arrived in England on June 6, riots broke out in support of her. The King asked his ministers to get rid of her. The Pains and Penalties Bill 1820 was introduced in Parliament in order to strip Caroline of the title of Queen and dissolve her marriage. It was claimed that Caroline had been involved with a low-born man, Bartolomeo Pergami, on the continent. The bill passed the House of Lords, but was not submitted to the House of Commons as there was little prospect that the Commons would pass it.

 

[branchg]

Frothy, I rest my case. ONLY Parliament can remove her rank and title!

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Frothy, I rest my case. ONLY Parliament can remove her rank and title!

Why does noone ever react to my posts? - I said that Charles letting his wife be known as the "Duchess of Cornwall" may well have been deciding that this title is his higher one. So "Queen" is the next step.

 

[Frothy]

Branch, because only parliament, back then, could dissolve her marriage!!

Her rank and title rested with her marriage. She was not divorced, therefore, she could not lose the title of queen!

If she divorces, the queenship goes with it.

 

[Frothy]

Jo, sorry to have missed your post, I thought you were joking. Duchess of Cornwall is a lower title, and I'm sure the PoW would have seen it that way.

Interesting 'Consort' snippet. Albert was not made Prince Consort for his marriage, just gazetted HRH four days before the wedding. He was not officially made Prince Consort until some years later although everybody called him that from the get-go.

Edit to add: also, Jo, thought you were joking because it is wholly because Prince Charles has decided that she will be known as Princess Consort that Queen unfortunately isn't the next step, in common parlance anyway.

It's Charles's decision that got us into the King Charles and Princess Consort jam we find ourselves in. Charles must reverse it.

 

[branchg]

Why does noone ever react to my posts? - I said that Charles letting his wife be known as the "Duchess of Cornwall" may well have been deciding that this title is his higher one. So "Queen" is the next step.

In a sense, it IS a higher title (at least in the peerage of the UK) because he automatically became The Duke of Cornwall in 1952 as the eldest son and heir of The Sovereign. He also is entitled under law to the income and monies accrued from the Duchy itself as the eldest son and heir.

The title "Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester" is subject to the will of The Sovereign and is a tradition, rather than automatic. It is a more senior title because it is Prince of The Principality of Wales, rather than just a Duke of a duchy, however, it is lower than being a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland ("HRH The Prince Charles").

So, my point regarding Camilla's current style and title remains the same. If her husband had no peerage or honours, she would be HRH The Princess Charles, which technically is senior in precedence than any peerages she holds as the wife of the titleholder.

Camilla has chosen to be known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall (with the consent of the Sovereign) which is fine because it doesn't change her status as a princess of the UK through marriage or her official precedence in the kingdom.

 

[branchg]

Prince Charles has decided that she will be known as Princess Consort that Queen unfortunately isn't the next step, in common parlance anyway.

It's Charles's decision that got us into the King Charles and Princess Consort jam we find ourselves in. Charles must reverse it.

It is not Charles decision as to what his wife will be called when he ascends the throne. That's why it was worded very carefully to say "it is intended" because the Crown cannot alter the title or style of the succession. That rests solely with Parliament with rights of assent to all the Crown Commonwealth nations.

There is no "jam" as you put it. He is not yet King and she is not yet the wife of the King. When and if this comes to pass, the Prime Minister will consult with Parliament and the Commonwealth to discuss the issue.

If polls show a strong majority of Britons oppose Camilla becoming Queen, then legislation will be introduced and passed by Parliament providing she will not share the King's rank, instead being styled at the will of the Sovereign as fount of honour. A separate bill defining her financial rights and claims against the royal estate will also have to be included in the Bill.

That's how it works in the UK parliamentary system of constitutional monarchy. It's not up to the King to do whatever he feels like doing.

 

[Skydragon]

Legally and technically the woman is Princess of Wales, but she might as well not be, because she is only and forever and everywhere "known as" the Duchess of Cornwall - a lesser style she holds. Thus, her status is unquestionably diminished in the eyes of the world,

Legally she is Princess of Wales and although you clearly see her status as diminished, very many people do not. They see her as Camilla, the beloved wife of Prince Charles and a very important lady. Something that just having a title, any title cannot give.

If polls show a strong majority of Britons oppose Camilla becoming Queen, then legislation will be introduced and passed by Parliament providing she will not share the King's rank, instead being styled at the will of the Sovereign as fount of honour. A separate bill defining her financial rights and claims against the royal estate will also have to be included in the Bill.

Already more and more people are realising what asses they made of themselves and are happily supporting Charles and Camilla. When the time comes, IMO, the last thing that will be on anyone's mind is introducing this sort of legislation.

 

[branchg]

The Duchess of Cornwall is treated the same and granted the same honour and precedence as The Princess of Wales is. It is simply a title, which matters far less than her status as the wife of the heir to the throne. She is a Royal Highness and the second lady in the kingdom after HM The Queen.

The people have accepted Camilla as a good addition to the royal team and an honourable wife for Prince Charles. That is what is important here and I have no doubt she will be welcomed by most as HM Queen Camilla.

 

[Frothy]

Sky, you don't see threads on TRF saying "Prince and Princess of Wales current events". It's everywhere, this downgrade. I assure you, I am a big Camilla fan. I hate what is being done to her titles. I hate messing with titles in general but care more in Camilla's case as I admire her so much.

Branchq,

You said

If polls show a strong majority of Britons oppose Camilla becoming Queen, then legislation will be introduced and passed by Parliament providing she will not share the King's rank, instead being styled at the will of the Sovereign as fount of honour. A separate bill defining her financial rights and claims against the royal estate will also have to be included in the Bill.

That's how it works in the UK parliamentary system of constitutional monarchy. It's not up to the King to do whatever he feels like doing.

Actually, none of that will have to happen. She will automatically become Queen, but will be known as and styled by her lesser title, which will be created, making her HRH the Princess Consort. Refer you to the statement from the Department of Constitutional Affairs to just that effect, above.

I think the government knows best what legislation will have to be enacted to entitle the queen to be known as HRH the Princess Consort.

There's no question of stripping her of her rank as queen. But she will still be known by a new, lesser title the King will confer upon her.

 

[branchg]

Actually, none of that will have to happen. She will automatically become Queen, but will be known as and styled by her lesser title, which will be created, making her HRH the Princess Consort. Refer you to the statement from the Department of Constitutional Affairs to just that effect, above.

I think the government knows best what legislation will have to be enacted to entitle the queen to be known as HRH the Princess Consort.

There's no question of stripping her of her rank as queen. But she will still be known by a new, lesser title the King will confer upon her.

She is automatically Queen Consort when Charles becomes King upon the death of his mother. The precedents of 1936 make it clear the wife of the King is Queen and cannot be "styled" as anything else without legislation being passed by Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth.

The King cannot act alone and issue letters patent creating his wife "HRH The Princess Consort" when she legally holds the title and rank of HM The Queen. Parliament would have to introduce a Bill to remove her legal rank, essentially making her a commoner ("Lady Camilla Mountbatten-Windsor"), freeing the King to create her a princess of the UK in her own right with precedence after His Majesty.

So, it's not so simple as you describe. It is legal and constitutional, with perogative of interpreting laws that rest with Parliament and not the Crown.

 

[Oppie]

The commonwealth doesn't need to a law in regards to Camilla title, they will be consulted but it is up to the British Parliament to pass any laws in regards to her titles.

They will pass there own law regarding Charles title.

 

[branchg]

The commonwealth doesn't need to a law in regards to Camilla title, they will be consulted but it is up to the British Parliament to pass any laws in regards to her titles.

They will pass there own law regarding Charles title.

Correct. However, the Statute of Westminster grants all nations with The British Sovereign as head of state the right to assent in any change to the title, style or succession of the monarchy.

Given this point, the Crown Commonwealth nations would essentially have to include the title of the Consort when passing bills recognizing Charles as the new Sovereign and Head of State of their nations.

 

[Frothy]

Branch, what the debate comes down to is going with either your personal assertion that this is the case:

The precedents of 1936 make it clear the wife of the King is Queen and cannot be "styled" as anything else without legislation being passed by Parliament and the Crown Commonwealth.

The King cannot act alone and issue letters patent creating his wife "HRH The Princess Consort" when she legally holds the title and rank of HM The Queen. Parliament would have to introduce a Bill to remove her legal rank, essentially making her a commoner ("Lady Camilla Mountbatten-Windsor"), freeing the King to create her a princess of the UK in her own right with precedence after His Majesty.

or, you can have my argument to the contrary, which is she will be Queen, but NO legislation is needed to create her HRH the Princess Consort and that she can be styled this way whilst remaining Queen.

The difference is your assertion is merely an assertion, and my argument is backed by sources from the government

A Department for Constitutional Affairs spokeswoman confirmed that legislation would be needed for Camilla not to become Queen automatically on Charles's succession.

"I think traditionally that's probably the case because in all similar circumstances in the past in past royal marriages that is what has happened," said the spokeswoman.

"But I think she is not going to be referred to as Queen, she will be referred to as the Princess Consort." Asked about the position of other countries where the Prince of Wales would become head of state on his succession, the spokeswoman replied: "I think you are right in thinking it would require legislation for her not to be Queen."

and the Royal Family:

http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/page5559.asp

After the wedding, Mrs Parker Bowles became known as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall. When The Prince of Wales accedes to the throne, she will be known as HRH The Princess Consort.

I have sources as to what will be required, and you do not. Which is why I just cannot let it pass when I see some sort of statement that Camilla, although techincally queen, will be known as anything other than HRH the Princess Consort. It is only you who say she cannot be both queen and styled by and use a lesser title simultaneously. The government and Buck House both say otherwise. These are official sources and I prefer to go with them.

 

[Skydragon]

Sky, you don't see threads on TRF saying "Prince and Princess of Wales current events". It's everywhere, this downgrade.

I have no problem with her using the 'lesser' title, I believe that with all the bad publicity that surrounded the title PssoW, it is better to skip a generation or two.

 

[Judy_PD]

Personally i'd not like the idea of Camilla being Queen at all. I think it'd ruin some opinions of Diana's memory. Only my opinion but i want her to stay how she is and this took a long time for me to accept her even coming into the royal family but i've kinda gotten used to her now.

 

[ysbel]

IWhich is why I just cannot let it pass when I see some sort of statement that Camilla, although techincally queen, will be known as anything other than HRH the Princess Consort.

Actually the scenario is far from certain. Government sources have been quoted as saying that something will come to pass when Charles ascends the throne that the laws on the books say is an impossibility.

How anyone can translate that scenario into a certainty that Camilla will be known as Princess Consort is beyond me. At best the situation is up in the air as to what her title will be. The statements say one thing; the laws anotehr.

The reason that some are leaning towards the possibility that Camilla will be known as Queen is the fact that government sources have been known to lie occasionally in order to keep up appearances in public.

 

[branchg]

Frothy, I have agreed at many different points along the way that IF everyone is on the same page that is it OK for Camilla to be legally Queen Consort, but known as Princess Consort instead, than that is what will happen.

My point is there is no basis constitutionally this will come to pass without legislation due to the precedents and perogatives of the law. The statements you are citing and quoting are vague statements of intent from ministries, which may not be valid when the time comes.

If the public indicates opposition to Camilla being Queen, then it will be done one way or another. So, I agree with you.

 

[ysbel]

Personally i'd not like the idea of Camilla being Queen at all. I think it'd ruin some opinions of Diana's memory. Only my opinion but i want her to stay how she is and this took a long time for me to accept her even coming into the royal family but i've kinda gotten used to her now.

That in my opinion is the worst reason not to grant Camilla the title of Queen. The monarchy cannot be turned into a century long living memorial to Diana or the Royal Family might as well just close up shop and turn Britain into a republic.

 

[Frothy]

I so agree, and it was the worst of reasons not to call her Princess of Wales. I want to see Camilla as Queen. (Known as). Perhaps an equerry is reading this and could ask HRH to change his mind, say 'you know it'll all be very awkward at a time of national mourning so we are now intending that she will simply use the normal title of Queen'.

You know what to do to bury the news? Announce that 'Princess Consort' is a dead duck the day Kate and William get engaged!

 

[love_cc]

I think circumstances will change so when the times come, Camilla will be called and known as Queen Camilla. The most important thing is that Charles will success the throne after his mother. Once he becomes King, I believe Camilla will be accpeted as Queen Consort and there will be no challenge because it is a tradition that King's wife will be known as a Queen.

Frothy, I think all you quotes are official sources and they are quite powerful. I agree with you that these are current views about Camilla's future title as Queen Consort presenting many difficulties. If necessary, she may be known as HRH Princess Consort if the majority of British citizens stronly opposed a HM Queen Camilla.

However all I want to state is that the circustamnces changes. The view of the government will change and the palaces will finally change their positions as well. Even the view of the current government does not represent the view of the future governemnt. And the palace announcements are more likely to be an intention rather than a decision upon a situation.The Princess Consort farce is to avoid any challenge about Charles's succession right in my opinion.I know it sounds very cunning and a bit dishonest about the situiation, but I think this is the case.

Prince Charles alwyas fights with the time and use a long period of time to solve some difficult problems such as his remarriage,such as the challenge of his succession right. In a way he always gets what he wants because he gambles with the time.All we can do is to wait rather than the speculation.

 

[Roslyn]

You know what to do to bury the news? Announce that 'Princess Consort' is a dead duck the day Kate and William get engaged!

Sneaky! I like it .