Diana/Charles/Camilla's Relationships Part 2

[tiaraprin]

Most of the girls I know who attended finishing school, are very down to earth and 'aware', so much so, they could make a rugby player blush! .

Gee, that is real advertisement for finishing schools. It is one thing to be aware, quite another to make a rugby player blush. There has to be some finesse not utter declasse rubbish.

 

[ysbel]

Diana paid with her life for any sins she may have committed. Charles and Camilla got off scot free for theirs. That is not fair in the scheme of life. While I know life is not fair, this one instance makes my blood boil.

You're so melodramatic, tiaraprin. Diana died because her car hit a tunnel post at over 100 mph and she wasn't wearing a seatbelt. It was not some divine retribution for her sins or Charles would have been killed somehow too as you so eloquently pointed out.

Somehow, I think Charles being left with two teenage boys in shock and grieving for their mother while the rest of the world went mad was not exactly getting off scot-free.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Diana paid with her life for any sins she may have committed. Charles and Camilla got off scot free for theirs

Tiaraprin. {personal remark removed - Elspeth} You have just made the most disgusting statement I have ever heard on a Royal Forum. You are saying that that Diana died in a car crash and that was a result of her sins. It was an accident. It could have been anyone. From your statement, you seem to feel that you want Charles and Camilla to be killed in a similar way and as long as they are alive, they can't be forgiven. Sickening. Absolutely sickening. I didn't like Diana at all but I wouldn't wish the woman dead.

 

[Skydragon]

Gee, that is real advertisement for finishing schools. It is one thing to be aware, quite another to make a rugby player blush. There has to be some finesse not utter declasse rubbish.

Most of the rugby players I know are fine upstanding young men, with a sense of humour!

 

[una]

...they should have not waited 14 years to get a divorce. I don't know what happened there unless it was pressure from the Royal Family to stick together. If so, that was wrong.

According to Hewitt, Diana craved freedom from her loveless marriage throughout their time together. She felt the Queen was the only person who could help her, but the Queen, although sympathetic, had a duty to ensure the smooth succession of the crown, and refused to intervene.

 

[BeatrixFan]

It's all down to being sensible. They could have followed a Duke and Duchess of Kent example or a Princess Anne and Tim Laurence set-up. But she wouldn't keep her mouth shut and she was cut loose. She was to blame for that - nobody else.

 

[Skydragon]

According to Hewitt, Diana craved freedom from her loveless marriage throughout their time together. She felt the Queen was the only person who could help her, but the Queen, although sympathetic, had a duty to ensure the smooth succession of the crown, and refused to intervene.

It seemed to me, that Diana could have pushed to get a divorce but, she wanted to keep all the trappings and neither the Queen or government could agree to that.

 

[ysbel]

According to Hewitt, Diana craved freedom from her loveless marriage throughout their time together. She felt the Queen was the only person who could help her, but the Queen, although sympathetic, had a duty to ensure the smooth succession of the crown, and refused to intervene.

Although, I don't necessarily believe Hewitt, that sounds about right. I think it took Princess Anne who definitely wasn't going to let royal protocol keep her in an unhappy marriage to get a divorce before the royals realized they could survive a divorce.

But Princess Anne had several advantages over Diana - she was a born princess and she wasn't the heir to the throne.

 

[branchg]

It seemed to me, that Diana could have pushed to get a divorce but, she wanted to keep all the trappings and neither the Queen or government could agree to that.

Diana already had it both ways after the separation by remaining in public life and retaining all of her rights and privileges as Princess of Wales and a Royal Highness. She blew it with Panorama and forgot her duty one last time. By doing so, she forced the Queen to assert herself to end the marriage for good.

Had she lived, Diana might have become a supportive force for the monarchy, instead of tearing it down at every turn.

 

[tiaraprin]

Tiaraprin. {personal remark removed - Elspeth} You have just made the most disgusting statement I have ever heard on a Royal Forum. You are saying that that Diana died in a car crash and that was a result of her sins. It was an accident. It could have been anyone. From your statement, you seem to feel that you want Charles and Camilla to be killed in a similar way and as long as they are alive, they can't be forgiven. Sickening. Absolutely sickening. I didn't like Diana at all but I wouldn't wish the woman dead.

I have been entirely misunderstood. Everyone has been talking about who sinned and how much they sinned. I simply stated the price Diana paid for who she was and what she did was that her life was tragically taken away. Charles and Camilla, although I loathe them to no end, I do not wish them dead. I am simply stating they got their cake and are eating it without any form of penitence whatsoever. That is what makes me mad. They got away with all they did and Diana is not here anymore. It isn't fair that she is gone and the people who caused her so much misery are so happy. Diana deserved a long, happy life and didn't get it.

 

[Saragli]

Life isnt fair Tiarapin. Diana died in a tragic car accident. The media chased her, the same media that she invited into her life. If Diana did not give tips to the media, didnt talk to them or do interviews the press would not have been so hounding. That is the truth. When you say C and C recieved no pain for their mishaps you are so wrong. Look at yourself and you will see they have suffered greatly. Everyday is an uphill battle with them. Everyday they have to try to get their charities to shine without grudges and the brutul media destroing their image. Everyday is a battle for them. Diana has caused them that pain. Diana put on a show for the world. A show that made her seem like a tragic victim. She was happy. Dont you forget. People quickly defend the tragic Di and remind us of the unhappy Di, yet, the fun, caring, loving women is never celebrated. The facts are that she wanted to seem like the victim cause she wanted a good settlement. I dont blame her for that. People dont see after the divorce though. People dont see that Charles and Di got along. That they became friends. Why do you think charles went to paris that day, why do you think he fought hard for a royal funeral, why do you think he helped plan the kensington exibition. Diana and Charles let bigones be bigones and started a new happy life. They both have suffered, now, Diana has her peace in a better place and charles has his on earth. Let us celebrate the real Di. The di in the testino pics. The happy di who did good things, moved on and was happy. Let us not scorn charles and accept him for the excellent man that he is. Let us accept Camilla just as Diana did. Trajedy and happiness come together in this world. You mourn when you have too and you have to try to be happy every chance you can get.

 

[Skydragon]

Diana already had it both ways after the separation by remaining in public life and retaining all of her rights and privileges as Princess of Wales and a Royal Highness. She blew it with Panorama and forgot her duty one last time. By doing so, she forced the Queen to assert herself to end the marriage for good.
.

Would she have kept all the trappings if she had left at the beginning of the marriage, when according to her, she realised that the marriage was a farce. It would certainly have been better for the monarchy if it had happened sooner.

 

[Skydragon]

I am simply stating they got their cake and are eating it without any form of penitence whatsoever. That is what makes me mad. They got away with all they did and Diana is not here anymore. It isn't fair that she is gone and the people who caused her so much misery are so happy. Diana deserved a long, happy life and didn't get it.

You say that Charles and Camilla haven't 'paid' but, would they have been subjected to any demonstrations in America if Diana was now living with whichever boyfriend, would she be vilified if she was now mrs al Fayed, with a couple more children looked after by nannies, would misguided people have objected to her re-marrying or suggest that William and Harry hate her latest partner. Would these so called fan clubs have been encouraged to send hate mail to Camilla before her wedding, to wave placards and follow her around the US??
Even on these forums the nasty comments continue, with one member suggesting that the snake necklace she wore, was 'apt', forgetting that Diana had a similar one.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I am simply stating they got their cake and are eating it without any form of penitence whatsoever. That is what makes me mad.

I'm going to be totally frank here. What on earth has it got to do with you? Or me for that matter. It has absoluely nothing. We don't know the secrets of their marriage bed - we know what people have chosen to tell us and I would say that that is only 5% of the actual story. Her affairs, her divorce and Charles and Camilla have nothing to do with her death - the car crashed. It crashed and it killed her. Her time was up just as it can be for any for us. She's gone tiaraprin and I know thats upsetting for you but remember - you didn't know her. Diana told us her side of the story but do we know that was true? If it was, what more could she have said and didn't? You are judging two people you didn't know on 5% of the story and that isn't wise. Constantly decrying Charles and Camilla won't bring her back. Charles and Diana had divorced. He didnt love her and she didnt love him. Now, 8 years after her death, he has remarried. And those are the facts. They didn't get away with it - they had to wait 8 years. Camilla was painted as an evil monster when in fact, she isn't. Charles has had to raise two sons alone without their mother who they loved very much - and thats hard. They've had to deal with a legacy of tapes etc left by Diana that do nothing but damage. It's hard for them. You don't have to feel sympathy for them but Diana is dead. She's gone. And if she was here, she could well be Mrs Al Fayed by now and nothing to do with the RF at all. Whatever your personal feelings, Charles and Camilla don't need the nod from every individual and as much as I hate to say it - they don't need their approval from you and they don't care what you think - they don't care what I think either. It's time to move on and lay the ghosts to rest. Endlessley going over and over the saga wont bring her back or change events. Let it rest.

 

[ysbel]

I have been entirely misunderstood. Everyone has been talking about who sinned and how much they sinned.

Not EVERYBODY is talking about who sinned and how much they sinned. We're talking about a marriage breakup that happens in 1 out of every 2 marriages these days and as when other marriages failed we're talking about factors that went into the breakup.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, by the time a marriage is this screwed up, its pointless to talk about who sinned the most or who sinned first.

 

[Zonk]

I am going to go on record for the second time...its time to close this thread.

We are going round and round and its not going to accomplish anything. Everyone (BeatrixFan, Tiarapin, etc.) is entitled to their opinion and can like or dislike who they want. There are no clear winners with the Charles/Camilla/Diana triangle. Like it or not. Diana is dead, Charles and Camilla are married and they (all three) will FOREVER be tied to each other. History will judge them.

 

[ysbel]

Yes, Zonk, there has been a lot of going round and around, but some interesting facts and opinions have come up amidst people repeating themselves-about Swiss finishing schools, the tunnel between DC and how easy it is to get killed like Diana did, how children react to their parents second spouse, what goes into the decisions for a State funeral, what the Queen Mum was really like.

It's natural to talk about what happened when a marriage ends. With other public marriages we don't have so much that was publicly released so then that's true speculation. Here we have the interesting and sometimes conflicting versions that Diana brought out so there's a lot more material to discuss.

Maybe the thread should be renamed - Charles and Diana, what went wrong.

 

[Skydragon]

Like it or not. Diana is dead, Charles and Camilla are married and they (all three) will FOREVER be tied to each other. History will judge them.

I spoke to a couple of my divorced friends and they said they give very little thought to their new partners ex's, they do not consider themselves tied to them (one ex died in a car accident) in any way. They were relationships that didn't work and they have all moved on. I would imagine that Diana features very little in Charles and Camilla's lives.

 

[Zonk]

I spoke to a couple of my divorced friends and they said they give very little thought to their new partners ex's, they do not consider themselves tied to them (one ex died in a car accident) in any way. They were relationships that didn't work and they have all moved on. I would imagine that Diana features very little in Charles and Camilla's lives.

Skydragon..you are missing my point. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Yes, most remarried couples are not tied to their ex's...but Charles/Diana/Camilla are not most couples. In regards to history, they will be tied together because of the marriage, divorce, affairs, etc. I am also sure that Charles and Camilla don't talk about Diana on a regular (as they shouldn't). In fact, probably the only time her name comes up is probably in relation to her boys. If at all.

 

[ysbel]

What makes the breakup of Charles and Diana so interesting to me is that despite their position and all the hype, their breakup looks surprisingly similar to other marriages I've seen break up.

There are problems, the husband and wife can't communicate, then they reach a point of no return where they're not even trying to communicate and camps start on either side as to how horrible the other person is.

I think the biggest problem is that Diana and Charles couldn't work through their differences because they looked at life from such different angles. This happens not only in marriages but anywhere you have to work with people, like on the job.

Even if you haven't had a bad marriage like this, anyone who has had to work on a project with someone that just doesn't seem to get it and seems to wreck you at every turn can understand what its like to be stuck with someone that you really can't deal with. A lot of times, the person isn't really trying to ruin you they just are trying to get their needs met. You just want to strangle them every time.

It's universal and its called the human condition.

 

[ysbel]

Yes, most remarried couples are not tied to their ex's...but Charles/Diana/Camilla are not most couples.

We must have crossposted Zonk. Yes, Charles and Diana were not most couples but their differences from the rest of us interest me less than what they have in common with us.

 

[Zonk]

Yes, Zonk, there has been a lot of going round and around, but some interesting facts and opinions have come up amidst people repeating themselves-about Swiss finishing schools, the tunnel between DC and how easy it is to get killed like Diana did, how children react to their parents second spouse, what goes into the decisions for a State funeral, what the Queen Mum was really like.

It's natural to talk about what happened when a marriage ends. With other public marriages we don't have so much that was publicly released so then that's true speculation. Here we have the interesting and sometimes conflicting versions that Diana brought out so there's a lot more material to discuss.

Maybe the thread should be renamed - Charles and Diana, what went wrong.

I am all for a honest, open discussion. I just don't think that when the parties are Charles/Diana/Camilla people on this board are open for an honest discussion. Nor are they respectful of other's opinion. Some claim that people can't move on, Diana is dead, yet they are the first ones to drop her name in a discussion. People get upset when its a Camilla thread and Diana's name is mentioned. Are we supposed to act like she NEVER existed. Sorry, as I mentioned before these women will FOREVER be linked by the man they both loved and we were both married to. Also, its not fair to constantly compare Camilla to Diana (jewelry, cloths, state visits, etc). Its not fair to both women. Yes, I realize that its normal to compare people. But let's keep it in perspective

 

[ysbel]

I am all for a honest, open discussion. I just don't think that when the parties are Charles/Diana/Camilla people on this board are open for an honest discussion. Nor are they respectful of other's opinion. Some claim that people can't move on, Diana is dead, yet they are the first ones to drop her name in a discussion. People get upset when its a Camilla thread and Diana's name is mentioned. Are we supposed to act like she NEVER existed. Sorry, as I mentioned before these women will FOREVER be linked by the man they both loved and we were both married to. Also, its not fair to constantly compare Camilla to Diana (jewelry, cloths, state visits, etc). Its not fair to both women. Yes, I realize that its normal to compare people. But let's keep it in perspective

Well I think some people are honest and respectful and I hate for the thread to be closed to them because others are not.

Some people are going to link Diana and Camilla together forever because they were in love with the same man but IMHO that's all they had in common. I see Diana and Charles' marriage failing even if Camilla hadn't existed and even Camilla being the other woman made no guarantees that she and Charles would have a happy marriage today.

If people want to link the three together, I don't mind, what I mind is when anybody gets unfairly blamed for something that is not their fault and then I speak up. Its a matter of ethics for me; I can't sit back and let that happen without saying something and I've stood up for Diana as well as Charles and Camilla on that score-and a lot of other royals that get trashed on this board.

 

[Zonk]

I agree. It also bothers me (and not just on this thread) when unsubstantiated rumours are stated as fact and the gospel.. and when you ask up for back up...no one has anything to say.

 

[ysbel]

One example of how people's opinions can change by what is said on these boards.

I previously thought it was risky and foolish for Diana to release her private life to Andrew Morton and in the Panorama interview. I still believe it did major harm to the monarchy but I can understand why she did it and I may have done the same if I had been in her position.

She was trapped in a disaster of a marriage with the additional burden of royal protocol which to her must have seemed cold and foreign and the Royal Family could not provide her with an out that would make the situation bearable for her. Charles had an out with Camilla, with whom he could have a satisfying relationship. He was born to the protocol and while he may not have liked it, he was used to it and as heir to the throne he would be bound by protocol no matter what happened to the marriage. Ditching Diana would have made no difference in how protocol would have affected his own life.

For Diana it was different, she wasn't used to it and she had an unhappy relationship with the man who brought her into this life. When the marriage was breaking down, I got annoyed with her for not dragging Charles into a divorce court on charges of adultery.

But now I think that it is not so easy to drag a Prince of Wales into a divorce court. And what una said about the Queen being sympathetic but not willing to step in really struck a chord with me. If people see you're hurting, they have the power to do something but they don't, that can be unbearable and you have to do what you must to get out of the situation.

I think the publicizing of her troubles did have a lot of consequences and if she had lived, she definitely would have had some problems with William as he got older, but at the time, I think she thought this was the only thing she could do to get out of a hellish situation. And based on what we know of the Royal Family, I think she was right, it was the only thing she could do to break out of the marriage.

 

[Warren]

The problem with all the Diana/Charles/Camilla threads is that there are two levels of discussion. The first, as we have here now, is what I refer to as the "adult" discussion, and is generally conducted quite civilly. Lots of interesting and thoughtful ideas are expressed which give some depth and understanding.

The second level is the emotive (what I refer to as "irrational") where words such as "sinning", "penitence", "having their cake" etc are bandied about, with the clear inference that since Diana died tragically, C & C must therefore "pay" and suffer forever after. This is then carried over into arguments that Charles is unsuited to be King, which of course is a roundabout way of wishing him ill. Personally I find this standard of "debate" immature and tiresome. Some members react to these kinds of statements by retaliating with derogatory comments about Diana, and away we go again. The cycle repeats itself over and over.

There is no way of restricting comments in this or any other thread to my preferred "adult" level and I am aware some members have chosen to give the D/C&C threads a miss because of the unpleasantness. I don't feel there would be any point in closing this particular thread because, being pessimistic here, I would imagine the debate would just continue elsewhere, and at least we have a designated thread for it.

Again, I thank everyone for their contributions and for keeping the discussion interesting, respectful and civil.

Warren

 

[Skydragon]

Skydragon..you are missing my point. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Yes, most remarried couples are not tied to their ex's...but Charles/Diana/Camilla are not most couples. In regards to history, they will be tied together because of the marriage, divorce, affairs, etc. I am also sure that Charles and Camilla don't talk about Diana on a regular (as they shouldn't). In fact, probably the only time her name comes up is probably in relation to her boys. If at all.

Yes I did misunderstand what you were saying earlier, however I still don't think that Charles or Camilla refer to William or Harry as 'her' children. I'm not even sure they will be tied together forever. They had a very short, if turbulent marriage, most likely the time will come when Diana is remembered as the ex 1st wife, who tragically died in an accident. People in the UK already refer to Camilla as Charles's wife, not the incessent jibe of mistress. Diana will be remembered as the mother of William and Harry and her affairs and behavior will also no longer be mentioned as much.
What people ought to remember is that some people were shouting for a modern monarchy, well they got it, divorces, remarriage, warts and all.

 

[corazon]

The problem with all the Diana/Charles/Camilla threads is that there are two levels of discussion. The first, as we have here now, is what I refer to as the "adult" discussion, and is generally conducted quite civilly. Lots of interesting and thoughtful ideas are expressed which give some depth and understanding.

The second level is the emotive (what I refer to as "irrational") where words such as "sinning", "penitence", "having their cake" etc are bandied about, with the clear inference that since Diana died tragically, C & C must therefore "pay" and suffer forever after. This is then carried over into arguments that Charles is unsuited to be King, which of course is a roundabout way of wishing him ill. Personally I find this standard of "debate" immature and tiresome. Some members react to these kinds of statements by retaliating with derogatory comments about Diana, and away we go again. The cycle repeats itself over and over.

There is no way of restricting comments in this or any other thread to my preferred "adult" level and I am aware some members have chosen to give the D/C&C threads a miss because of the unpleasantness. I don't feel there would be any point in closing this particular thread because, being pessimistic here, I would imagine the debate would just continue elsewhere, and at least we have a designated thread for it.

Again, I thank everyone for their contributions and for keeping the discussion interesting, respectful and civil.

Warren

you're right, Warren, many times we not are racional and we are a little emocional with some post, is the true. But many post no are ''adult post''.

 

[tiaraprin]

Close the thread, enough is enough

This "irrational" poster believes this thread should be closed.

I am so tired of the spinning wheel that never stops. Also, I cannot post what I feel without being called irrational. There is never going to be closure, there is never going to be peace on this board when so many hate each other's personal beliefs.

 

[corazon]

Also, I cannot post what I feel without being called irrational.

I totally agree with you, I feel exatcly the same, for said we loved diana we are irrational, is ridicolus.