Princess Madeleine, Chris O'Neill & Family, General News Part 4,February 2021

[Tatiana Maria]

There were some quite intrusive photos of them eating at a restaurant taken from the table next to them doing the rounds on social media so I wouldn't be surprised if that put them off.

I assume you are referring to these?

It didn't take long for the press to go after Chris. Stoppa pressarna, the really mean and bad web gossip magazine, has photos of Madeleine and Chris at a dinner at Sturehof restaurant. There are more articles about Chris and Madeleine at Stoppa pressarna, it's information is very often false.
Bildbeviset_ Chris O’Neill skämde ut sig på krog vid Stureplan _ Stoppa Pressarna

Well that's me told.

Personally I wonder if Chris wasn't keen in the first place and then something like happening may have been enough to push him over the edge.

I do not believe anyone was telling you off, rather noting that if your speculation about the couple being put off their long-planned move by the recent paparazzi photography were correct, then it would indicate they lacked foresight because it was always predictable that such incidents would transpire.

It does seem apparent to me from Chris O'Neill's past public interviews and actions that he has never been keen on moving to Sweden (though I realize that he has never explicitly confirmed his feelings one way or another, and some will disagree). What is less clear to me is why his seeming preferences should consistently take priority over his wife's seeming preferences, especially since (in response to the "breadwinner" controversy of 2015) he has said that he is supportive of gender equality.

Given the unnecessarily nasty coverage Chris always gets in the Swedish press, I am not surprised he doesn't want to live there.

I have not observed nasty coverage of Chris O'Neill (or any other royal) in the mainstream Swedish press, but publications such as Stoppa Pressarna are of course another story.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Do we know if they will stay in the same house? I guess it had to be vacated to be put on the market (has it been sold?) and now they are going back there?

 

[LadyFinn]

Do we know if they will stay in the same house? I guess it had to be vacated to be put on the market (has it been sold?) and now they are going back there?

I guess we have to wait what the Swedish press finds out. Or use Google ourselves to find information about whether Madeleine and family will stay at the same house.
It reads "listing removed" about the house at some brokers' websites.
"Listing removed" means the seller has decided to take the house off market, it usually does not mean that the house was sold. Sellers may have a change of heart and decide not to sell, or have decided to make repairs and renovations before listing again.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I guess we have to wait what the Swedish press finds out. Or use Google ourselves to find information about whether Madeleine and family will stay at the same house.
It reads "listing removed" about the house at some brokers' websites.
"Listing removed" means the seller has decided to take the house off market, it usually does not mean that the house was sold. Sellers may have a change of heart and decide not to sell, or have decided to make repairs and renovations before listing again.

Or have decided not to sell at all and move back in.
Thanks.

 

[marlene]

I wonder if the move to Sweden requires the capital from the sale of their home and since the house isn’t selling then they have to recalculate their finances. The house has been for sale for a very long time so my guess is that it is overpriced. It could be as simple as that.

 

[Silverpot]

I wonder if the move to Sweden requires the capital from the sale of their home and since the house isn’t selling then they have to recalculate their finances. The house has been for sale for a very long time so my guess is that it is overpriced. It could be as simple as that.

Yup, good guess. I've also suspected that the whole move was an economic necessity. It's also according to the gossip that's swirling around.

 

[LadyFinn]

Historian and royal expert Herman Lindqvist to Svensk Damtidning about the delay in the move:
- You can't know what the reason is, but I've read the court's explanation and they say it's not about migration or house sales. But that's not true either, they said this officially for the first time at the beginning of February and then you must have planned the move for quite some time before going ahead with it. They have had well over six months, and that is not a short time for a family that wants to move. There is probably something private behind it that we don't know about.
Sågar hovets förklaring om Madeleine och Chris_ ”Stämmer ju inte” _*Svensk Dam

I wonder if the move to Sweden requires the capital from the sale of their home and since the house isn’t selling then they have to recalculate their finances. The house has been for sale for a very long time so my guess is that it is overpriced. It could be as simple as that.

The house was put for sale on 3rd March and the sale was ended on 16th June and the listing removed. There are many houses in Pinecrest in the same price range which have been for sale much longer time. Yes, the price is high, they paid $3,055,000 when they bought the house in December 2019 and now the price is $7,450,000. According to the ads Madeleine and Chris have made a new roof to the house in 2020 and there is also a newly redesigned Master Bedroom & Bath with Carrerra marble and walk-in shower.

 

[hereditarytitles]

Historian and royal expert Herman Lindqvist to Svensk Damtidning about the delay in the move:
- You can't know what the reason is, but I've read the court's explanation and they say it's not about migration or house sales. But that's not true either, they said this officially for the first time at the beginning of February and then you must have planned the move for quite some time before going ahead with it. They have had well over six months, and that is not a short time for a family that wants to move. There is probably something private behind it that we don't know about.
Sågar hovets förklaring om Madeleine och Chris_ ”Stämmer ju inte” _*Svensk Dam


The house was put for sale on 3rd March and the sale was ended on 16th June. There are many houses in Pinecrest in the same price range which have been for sale much longer time. Yes, the price is high, they paid $3,055,000 when they bought the house in December 2019 and now the price is $7,450,000. According to the ads Madeleine and Chris have made a new roof to the house in 2020 and there is also a newly redesigned Master Bedroom & Bath with Carrerra marble and walk-in shower.

All of it is speculation. I noticed though that Chris has not been looking very healthy recently, he has, I don't know, become chubby, stressed.
Maybe the rumours about his financial situation are true, and therefore they decided to move to Sweden. that could create a problem for him because he wants to be financially independent and support his family .

He would never give up what he built up as his business like Daniel did and he doesn't have to because he is not the husband of a CP.
I all sounds confusing and I hope they will come to a solution, hope there is no marriage crisis .

 

[marlene]

Their house has been for sale for almost 4 months. The market always tells you what your house is worth and it may be that the house is overpriced. They haven’t made that many improvements to the home since they have owned it so I imagine they would have to lower the price significantly to sell it. As interest rates rise it’s difficult for people with mortgages because refinancing could be expensive at this point. Hopefully they can sort this out soon because it is difficult for them to be in limbo like this.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

A few further thoughts regarding some of the speculated reasons for the postponement:

Since the Florida home was pulled from the market on June 16th and the publication of the restaurant photos occurred on June 17th, according to the Stoppa Pressarna link, it appears impossible for the photographs to have been a factor in the change of plans.

If the move was motivated by economic necessity, then I would find the postponement puzzling, because it seems unlikely that after so many years Christopher O'Neill's business would have experienced a sudden and enormous improvement in the past three months since the announcement of the move.

I seem to recall that Princess Madeleine posted on social media about her tenth wedding anniversary a few weeks ago, which would be an odd thing to do if there were serious marital issues.

Their house has been for sale for almost 4 months. The market always tells you what your house is worth and it may be that the house is overpriced. They haven’t made that many improvements to the home since they have owned it so I imagine they would have to lower the price significantly to sell it. As interest rates rise it’s difficult for people with mortgages because refinancing could be expensive at this point. Hopefully they can sort this out soon because it is difficult for them to be in limbo like this.

But Margareta Thorgren explicitly denied that the postponement is connected to the home sale.

 

[Granada]

Perhaps it was a just change of heart, not predicated by health or financial problems. I can sympathize with both, Madeline wanting to be near her family for her and the children's sake. And Chris, on the other hand *maybe* just not wanting to live there.

Didn't Chris grow up in London too ? I thought they lived there for a while too ? I wish they could find a nice place in the Country there.

Hopefully they can figure out a compromise out for their Family. I know what's its like to move to very different locale and be miserable. Not wanting any part of your new "home". It is horrible when one person (me) was forced into a move for my Husband's job. The marriage ended and I'm back where I belong. But I wouldn't wish that unhappiness or stress on anyone. Especially with 3 very young children in the middle.

 

[hereditarytitles]

Perhaps it was a just change of heart, not predicated by health or financial problems. I can sympathize with both, Madeline wanting to be near her family for her and the children's sake. And Chris, on the other hand *maybe* just not wanting to live there.

Didn't Chris grow up in London too ? I thought they lived there for a while too ? I wish they could find a nice place in the Country there.

Hopefully they can figure out a compromise out for their Family. I know what's its like to move to very different locale and be miserable. Not wanting any part of your new "home". It is horrible when one person (me) was forced into a move for my Husband's job. The marriage ended and I'm back where I belong. But I wouldn't wish that unhappiness or stress on anyone. Especially with 3 very young children in the middle.

I fully agree with your points. I also hope for them there are no marital problems, there just seems to be a slight difference of opinions where to live in the future. After the announcement some time ago that they would move to Sweden and putting the Florida house on sale it looked like that they were both d'accord with that decision.

The sudden change in plans comes as a surprise and is feeding the speculations. Maybe there is nothing behind it and the statement of the court that they need more time for the move is just the truth.

 

[JR76]

What to me speaks against it being economic problems that's stopping the family from moving to Sweden is that in Stockholm they'd live rent-free in a recently renovated upmarket flat and have access to free education and free healthcare something which I'd imagine would cost quite a lot of money in Florida.

 

[Prinsara]

What to me speaks against it being economic problems that's stopping the family from moving to Sweden is that in Stockholm they'd live rent-free in a recently renovated upmarket flat and have access to free education and free healthcare.

They don't pay rent in Florida and I assume private schools are not free in Sweden, so I guess insurance and healthcare are still probably not enough to make a difference.

 

[LadyFinn]

They don't pay rent in Florida and I assume private schools are not free in Sweden, so I guess insurance and healthcare are still probably not enough to make a difference.

They pay the maintenance, upkeep and guarding of their big house in Pinecrest. And property tax, in 2021 over USD 40,000. Nothing of those they pay of their big apartment at the Royal Stables.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

I doubt private school will be an issue, it's something the King would probably take care of before it becomes a show stopper.
Somebody mentioned the 'breadwinner' interview from 2015, I can easily believe it's an attitude issue that Chris wants to support the family alone but for some reason it's not possible any longer in Sweden.

 

[Somebody]

Do we know if they will stay in the same house? I guess it had to be vacated to be put on the market (has it been sold?) and now they are going back there?

Why would a house need to be vacated to be put on the market? Is that something that happens for more expensive houses?

The inhabitants need to make sure they are not present whenever someone is coming to visit the house to have a look but other than that, they should be able to live in a slightly more stylized version of their home?!

 

[JR76]

They don't pay rent in Florida and I assume private schools are not free in Sweden, so I guess insurance and healthcare are still probably not enough to make a difference.

It's illegal for all Swedish schools to charge tuition fees. 16,2 % of this year's primary school students were enrolled in a private school and they had all basic costs of education covered by the state in the same way that those enrolled in public schools had. The law is so strictly enforced that schools have gotten into trouble for requiring parents to pay for excursions or entrance fees to museums.

 

[LadyFinn]

Chris O'Neill is a German citizen - again - since March.
When Chris was born in the UK on 27 June 1974, he was eligible for three citizenships; a British one due to him being born in the country, an American one through his father and a West German one through his mother.
He got the first two straight away, the German didn't come until two years later. Margareta Thorgren says that when German legislation prevented citizens from having multiple citizenships, it resulted in Chris not renewing his German citizenship.
In connection with the publication of the planned move to Sweden, Chris contacted the German authorities and explained his case.
- He applied for a new passport via the German embassy in Stockholm and recently, after due administration, the case was granted, says Thorgren.
He is now British, American and German, and as a citizen of an EU country and Schengen member Germany, there are no major difficulties in immigrating to Sweden.
About the postponed move Thorgren says that there are so many things to take into account, things that have taken longer than expected and therefore the family has chosen not to force this move back to Sweden. They try to make it so that it fits as well as possible for, above all, the children.
Is it still 2024 that applies?
- The plan is fixed, 2024.
Chris O'Neills drag inför Sverigeflytten_ Blir tysk _ Kungligt _ Expressen
Translation

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

The fact that Chris applied for a German passport shows the seriousness of a move to Sweden, like Germany a country of EU. The British passport is of no big help in this matter after Brexit.

 

[Somebody]

Chris O'Neill is a German citizen - again - since March.
When Chris was born in the UK on 27 June 1974, he was eligible for three citizenships; a British one due to him being born in the country, an American one through his father and a West German one through his mother.
He got the first two straight away, the German didn't come until two years later. Margareta Thorgren says that when German legislation prevented citizens from having multiple citizenships, it resulted in Chris not renewing his German citizenship.
In connection with the publication of the planned move to Sweden, Chris contacted the German authorities and explained his case.
- He applied for a new passport via the German embassy in Stockholm and recently, after due administration, the case was granted, says Thorgren.
He is now British, American and German, and as a citizen of an EU country and Schengen member Germany, there are no major difficulties in immigrating to Sweden.
About the postponed move Thorgren says that there are so many things to take into account, things that have taken longer than expected and therefore the family has chosen not to force this move back to Sweden. They try to make it so that it fits as well as possible for, above all, the children.
Is it still 2024 that applies?
- The plan is fixed, 2024.
Chris O'Neills drag inför Sverigeflytten_ Blir tysk _ Kungligt _ Expressen
Translation

Has the law been changed in Germany as Chris voluntarily applied to a German passport without apparently loosing his British and American passport. In the Netherlands (that has a similar rule), he would have had to give up his other nationalities unless those countries would not allow for it (such as Morocco and Argentina).

 

[tihkon2]

Has the law been changed in Germany as Chris voluntarily applied to a German passport without apparently loosing his British and American passport. In the Netherlands (that has a similar rule), he would have had to give up his other nationalities unless those countries would not allow for it (such as Morocco and Argentina).

You don't have to give up other citzenships anymore.

 

[Biri]

And it wouldn't have existed any obstacles if all the family had been planning to move permanently to Germany?

 

[hereditarytitles]

And it wouldn't have existed any obstacles if all the family had been planning to move permanently to Germany?

With the laws that have been recently changed, they could have moved to Germany, but that country wasn't ever on their agenda. Chris , having now three passports, US, British and German he can be very lucky indeed, and can live as well in the US, GB and all European EU countries.

I had a big problem years ago with my daughter who was born in the US with a US father and therefore had only a US passport.. When we moved back to Germany they would not give my child a German passport, although she had a German mother.

Some years later they had a law that you could apply for a German passport if you had a German mother, and I did that. They reduced it to one year, wich means you had to do the application within one year, after that it was impossible.

They asked to give up her US citizenship, and we never did. Then they obviously forgot about it.
My daughter now has US and German passports, and considering the laws today, it would have been stupid to give up her US passport.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Chris O'Neill is a German citizen - again - since March.
When Chris was born in the UK on 27 June 1974, he was eligible for three citizenships; a British one due to him being born in the country, an American one through his father and a West German one through his mother.
He got the first two straight away, the German didn't come until two years later. Margareta Thorgren says that when German legislation prevented citizens from having multiple citizenships, it resulted in Chris not renewing his German citizenship.

I have not consulted the statutes of the time, but from all the information I have, Expressen/Margareta Thorgren is wrong. Married women could not pass their German citizenship to their children before January 1, 1975. Chris O'Neill's mother would have needed to voluntarily declare German citizenship for her son during a three-year window between January 1, 1975 to December 31, 1977.

The statement "it resulted in Chris not renewing his German citizenship" also seems to be incorrect. Hereditary citizenship is permanent and does not need to be renewed, as far as I have found. Perhaps his German passport needed to be renewed, but I do not see how he could have lost his German citizenship as the court claims. (He could, in theory, have lost his citizenship by voluntarily applying for another citizenship at some point, but he did not do that. His British and American citizenships were his birthright, and it was announced that he chose not to pursue Swedish citizenship.)

See for example this website of the German Federal Foreign Office:
https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/visa-service/buergerservice/faq/-/606854

German passports are only issued to German citizens. Having German ancestors resp. the fact that your father and/or your mother was/were born in Germany is unfortunately not enough to attain German citizenship. Rather, your father and/or mother have to have been German citizens at the time of your birth. If you were born before 1 January 1975 and your parents were married, you only attained German citizenship if your father was German at the time of your birth or if your parents submitted a declaration by 31 December 1977 stating they wanted German citizenship for their child.

[...]

No, as far as German law is concerned, if your child automatically had two nationalities at birth, he/she does not have to decide between the two at a later stage. Your child is therefore a permanent holder of dual nationality.

 

[Somebody]

Thanks. The latter doesn't seem to apply to Chris as he did not have German nationality at birth (nor was he eligible to it at that time) as you correctly pointed out. In his case, his German nationality was a third nationality acquired later; would that matter for the final sentence regarding being a permanent holder of dual nationality?

Does Madeleine also have dual/multiple nationality? Her mother after all was also born as a German citizen - but I'm not sure whether she later obtained Brazilian nationality and/or gave up nationalities when she became a Swedish citizen?

Do we know which nationalities each of the children have?

 

[hereditarytitles]

I have not consulted the statutes of the time, but from all the information I have, Expressen/Margareta Thorgren is wrong. Married women could not pass their German citizenship to their children before January 1, 1975. Chris O'Neill's mother would have needed to voluntarily declare German citizenship for her son during a three-year window between January 1, 1975 to December 31, 1977.

That is exactly what happened to us at that time. The three year window was the problem. And what really angered me at that time was that it was not communicated to the public at all. Just by chance I read an article about this in a newspaper, otherwise I wouldn't have known.

In Chris' case I am sure it wasn't an issue when he grew up, having already US and British citizenship.
That he applied for a German passport although he never lived in that country and has, as I know, not any relations to it. must have been only because of the planned move to Sweden.

 

[hereditarytitles]

Thanks. The latter doesn't seem to apply to Chris as he did not have German nationality at birth (nor was he eligible to it at that time) as you correctly pointed out. In his case, his German nationality was a third nationality acquired later; would that matter for the final sentence regarding being a permanent holder of dual nationality?

Does Madeleine also have dual/multiple nationality? Her mother after all was also born as a German citizen - but I'm not sure whether she later obtained Brazilian nationality and/or gave up nationalities when she became a Swedish citizen?

Do we know which nationalities each of the children have?

Leonore was born in the US, so she has US nationality by birth and by her father. The other two children were born in Sweden. It depends on the nationality laws of Sweden how it is handled. If they allow dual citizenship, or even three , they might be Swedish because of birth and their mother plus US because of their father.
As I understand it it always depends on the laws of the country where you were born plus on the laws of the country where you decide to move.

Maybe they make exceptions for royals? I don't know and I don't hope so.

 

[Somebody]

I have not consulted the statutes of the time, but from all the information I have, Expressen/Margareta Thorgren is wrong. Married women could not pass their German citizenship to their children before January 1, 1975. Chris O'Neill's mother would have needed to voluntarily declare German citizenship for her son during a three-year window between January 1, 1975 to December 31, 1977.

That is exactly what happened to us at that time. The three year window was the problem. And what really angered me at that time was that it was not communicated to the public at all. Just by chance I read an article about this in a newspaper, otherwise I wouldn't have known.

In Chris' case I am sure it wasn't an issue when he grew up, having already US and British citizenship.
That he applied for a German passport although he never lived in that country and has, as I know, not any relations to it. must have been only because of the planned move to Sweden.

If I understand the court's spokesperson correctly, his mother DID apply for him during that window. However, for some reason he did not renew his German passport, resulting in the loss of his citizenship.

I don't know the German rules but if they are somewhat similar to the Netherlands, this would have happened if he -as someone with dual/triple nationality- had not renewed his passport within 10 years (recently changed to 13 years) and lived all that time outside of the country (for the Netherlands: within the Kingdom or the EU).

As far as I know, Chris never lived in Germany as an adult, so I can fully well imagine him losing his nationality in the case of non-renewal within a specified time limit.

In the Netherlands, losing the privileges of being an EU-national is one of the reasons why someone who lost his/her Dutch nationality might reapply for the lost nationality - by explaining why losing EU-citizenship results in a significant disadvantage. This wouldn't be too complicated for Chris as he previously had British citizenship because of which he already was an EU-citizen, but he recently lost that privilege due to Brexit resulting in him needing his German EU-citizenship to be able to live in Sweden with his Swedish family. However, now they decided not to move there at least for the time being...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Deleted post.