Princess Madeleine, Chris O'Neill & Family, General News Part 4,February 2021


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hereditarytitles said:
Leonore was born in the US, so she has US nationality by birth and by her father. The other two children were born in Sweden. It depends on the nationality laws of Sweden how it is handled. If they allow dual citizenship, or even three , they might be Swedish because of birth and their mother plus US because of their father.
As I understand it it always depends on the laws of the country where you were born plus on the laws of the country where you decide to move.

Maybe they make exceptions for royals? I don't know and I don't hope so.
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Exactly, it depends on the laws of various countries in their case - not only where they were born but also of their parents' nationalities (at least: Sweden, USA, UK) which is why I was wondering what their nationalities are.

I assume they all have Swedish citizenship via their mother (as Sweden applies Jus Sanguinis). Leonore definitely has US citizenship (as the USA's primary system is Jus Soli); and I believe they could indeed all apply for (or may have automatically acquired) American citizenship through their father (which I assume they did as that would make living in Florida easier). Given that the UK's system (although very complicated with different categories) also is based on Jus Sanguinis since 1983, I assume they also acquired British citizenship at birth via their father. I don't know whether Madeleine has other nationalities to pass on. If Chris lost his German citizenship quite some time ago, his children wouldn't be able to apply for German citizenship through him per the rules posted above. If he didn't lose them, they would have acquired German citizenship at birth it seems - although they probably didn't register as such, as they would most likely need to prove his citizenship first.

For Swedish citizenship there is a difference between those born before and after April 2015, so different rules apply to Leonore than to Nicholas and Adrienne.
- For Leonore the following rule is relevant: the child's mother was a Swedish citizen, and the child was born on or after 1 July 1979.
- For Nicholas and Adrienne the following rule is relevant: one of the parents is a Swedish citizen at the time of the child's birth.
The main difference between prior/after april 2015 is in relation to non-married parents: previously the mother was leading in passing on her citizenship; the father could only do so if married to the child's mother or being unmarried to the child's mother but living in Sweden.

For Leonore it was important/helpful to temporarily live in Sweden to ensure that there is no doubt at all that she doesn't need to obtain approval to retain her Swedish citizenship at age 22:
Loss of Swedish citizenship
Although dual citizenship is permitted, a Swedish citizen who was born outside Sweden and is a citizen of another country will lose Swedish citizenship at age 22 unless he or she is granted approval to retain Swedish citizenship between ages 18–21. However, approval is not required if:

the person has ever been domiciled in Sweden; or
the person has ever been in Sweden under circumstances that indicate a link with Sweden.
The person has domiciled for 7 years in a country participating in the Nordic Council.
In such cases the Swedish citizenship is retained.
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Source

For the UK the following seems relevant: Children born overseas are British citizens by descent if either parent is a citizen otherwise than by descent, subject to regulations.
Given that Chris obtained his British citizenship by being born in London, his children are the first 'British citizen by descent'-generation; meaning they will most likely not be able to pass on that citizenship to their children (unless they meet specific criteria, such as settling in the UK).

For Chris to be able to pass on his US-citizenship to his two younger children, the following applies:
If the birth occurred on or after November 14, 1986, the U.S. national must have resided in the United States for five years, two of them after the age of fourteen, previous to the birth of the child.
It seems Chris meets this criterion as he did both his Bachelor's as well as his Master's in the States; and, of course, they lived in New York when Leonore was born.
 
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Somebody said:
Thanks. The latter doesn't seem to apply to Chris as he did not have German nationality at birth (nor was he eligible to it at that time) as you correctly pointed out. In his case, his German nationality was a third nationality acquired later; would that matter for the final sentence regarding being a permanent holder of dual nationality?
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True, but the following report from 2020 (in English) explains in detail various provisions for loss or renunciation of citizenship in German citizenship law over the past few decades. None of those possibilities would seem to apply to Chris O'Neill.

https://cadmus.eui.eu/bitstream/handle/1814/66430/RSCAS_GLOBALCIT_CR_2020_5.pdf

So, I strongly suspect that Ms. Thorgren was wrong and it was only his passport, not his citizenship, which expired.

If someone could provide a link to all versions of the German citizenship law from 1974 to 2023, that would be best.


Somebody said:
Does Madeleine also have dual/multiple nationality? Her mother after all was also born as a German citizen - but I'm not sure whether she later obtained Brazilian nationality and/or gave up nationalities when she became a Swedish citizen?
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I have not looked into Queen Silvia's nationalities and whether she renounced them on marriage, but Princess Madeleine's Swedish citizenship and Chris O'Neill's British, American and (presumably) German citizenships would have been automatically inherited by all three of their children at birth, regardless of their birthplace.

Swedish citizenship:

https://www.migrationsverket.se/Eng...h-birth-adoption-or-the-parents-marriage.html

British citizenship:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...zenship-on-to-children-born-outside-of-the-uk

American citizenship:

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title8-section1401&num=0&edition=prelim

German citizenship:

https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/visa-service/buergerservice/faq/-/606854
 
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The annoncement of their moving was on post 88 , my post will be 243.
They announced it too early , and now it will be postponed until 2024.
Not clever at all !
 
The court's misinformation about citizenship aside, the fact that Chris O'Neill obtained a new German passport in March explains why the house was publicly listed for sale, and the relocation plan announced, in March.

Somebody said:
Does Madeleine also have dual/multiple nationality? Her mother after all was also born as a German citizen - but I'm not sure whether she later obtained Brazilian nationality and/or gave up nationalities when she became a Swedish citizen?
Click to expand...

Based upon a quick search of the information about Swedish, Brazilian and German citizenship law on the same website as the report I linked to above: It seems that at the time Silvia Sommerlath married, the voluntary acquisition of a foreign citizenship would have automatically deprived her of Brazilian citizenship, if she had it, and the same would apply for German citizenship unless she remained habitually resident in Germany (which she clearly did not). Wives of Swedish citizens no longer automatically acquired citizenship by marriage since a legal change in 1950, so I would assume Silvia was naturalized as a Swedish citizen in 1976 and thereby lost her German and possibly Brazilian citizenship.

LadyFinn said:
About the postponed move Thorgren says that there are so many things to take into account, things that have taken longer than expected and therefore the family has chosen not to force this move back to Sweden. They try to make it so that it fits as well as possible for, above all, the children.
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Contrary to what Ms. Thorgren says, I can't see any evidence that the couple were forced into announcing that they planned to move to Sweden in August 2023.
 
My thinking after hearing all the recent updates is that maybe they announced the move hoping to get it all sorted in time for the children to start school in August but that with so many things to all fall in to place within a set period of time its not been possible to pull it off right now. I assume they don't want to pull the kids out mid-term so will wait until next year now -(not sure if they mean summer 24 or Jan 24, maybe pull the kids out after Christmas? end of school year makes most sense IMO)
Chris applying for German citizenship definitely suggests they have been planning it for sometime.

I've said before that the Swedish Royal Court is too reactive to the media so I do wonder if they got a few too many questions about the house being for sale and caved, if so poor its poor form.
 
According to the Swedish press Alice Sommerlath and her older children held dual German and Brazilian citizenships while Walther Sommerlath and their younger children (including Silvia) who were born in Germany only held German citizenship. This made the family's repatriation to Brazil after the war difficult and the problem wasn't solved until 1947 when they were given visas allowing them to leave the British occupation zone for Brazil.
Silvia Sommerlath became a Swedish citizen on the day before her marriage to King Carl Gustav and the certificate announcing her Swedish citizenship only mentions her as being a citizen of the Federal republic of Germany.
 
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LadyFinn said:
They pay the maintenance, upkeep and guarding of their big house in Pinecrest. And property tax, in 2021 over USD 40,000. Nothing of those they pay of their big apartment at the Royal Stables.
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Looking at the 121 houses currently listed for sale in Pinecrest, FL on realtor.com the most expensive is $16.5 million at 13,000+ sq. ft. The lowest priced is $850,000 at 950 sq. ft. :eek:

COVID increased real estate pricing dramatically here in the US but didn’t double it. I agree that it may be overpriced. Most agencies require a three month listing which tracks with the timeline others have shared. If something hasn’t sold, it looks better for the seller to remove the listing and then relist with the same or different broker because the “days on the market” starts over, and it looks then like a house that’s newly on the market instead of one that was on the market for months and didn’t sell.

I never saw the original listing but if it didn’t sell, it was either overpriced and they chose not to lower the price or there was something else wrong with the property.
 
JR76 said:
According to the Swedish press Alice Sommerlath and her older children held dual German and Brazilian citizenships while Walther Sommerlath and their younger children (including Silvia) who were born in Germany only held German citizenship. This made the family's repatriation to Brazil after the war difficult and the problem wasn't solved until 1947 when they were given visas allowing them to leave the British occupation zone for Brazil.
Silvia Sommerlath became a Swedish citizen on the day before her marriage to King Carl Gustav and the certificate announcing her Swedish citizenship only mentions her as being a citizen of the Federal republic of Germany.
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Thanks! And by taking up Swedish citizenship I assume she forfeited her German citizenship as indicated by Tatiana Maria.
 
Somebody said:
If I understand the court's spokesperson correctly, his mother DID apply for him during that window. However, for some reason he did not renew his German passport, resulting in the loss of his citizenship.

I don't know the German rules but if they are somewhat similar to the Netherlands, this would have happened if he -as someone with dual/triple nationality- had not renewed his passport within 10 years (recently changed to 13 years) and lived all that time outside of the country (for the Netherlands: within the Kingdom or the EU).

As far as I know, Chris never lived in Germany as an adult, so I can fully well imagine him losing his nationality in the case of non-renewal within a specified time limit.

In the Netherlands, losing the privileges of being an EU-national is one of the reasons why someone who lost his/her Dutch nationality might reapply for the lost nationality - by explaining why losing EU-citizenship results in a significant disadvantage. This wouldn't be too complicated for Chris as he previously had British citizenship because of which he already was an EU-citizen, but he recently lost that privilege due to Brexit resulting in him needing his German EU-citizenship to be able to live in Sweden with his Swedish family. However, now they decided not to move there at least for the time being...
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My guess is that without Brexit, he'd never have applied for a German passport. Brexit changed everything for British Passport holders.
Having lived in Britain, we have many friends applying for other nations passports because of heritage of spouses, mothers, fathers ... just to be sure to be able to stay in the EU. You never know.
A friend of us (Australian, with a British passport) is married to a Swedish woman. To date, they cannot relocate to Sweden as a family despite a good job, the wife and 2 children with Swedish passports because the country is so strict in its laws, he does not speak Swedish and the time frame for applying is not doable for them when planning. The lived in more liberal countries in EU, like Spain or Portugal, but for the sake of working they ended up again in UK what they really dislike.
 
Celina d'Abo was married today in West Wratting. Princess Leonore, Prince Nicolas, and Princess Adrienne were apart of the bridal party.
 
:previous: The wedding registry is over at zola.com.

The bride and groom got practically everything on their rarefied list.:whistling:
 
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Stunning bride! I’m assuming that her husband is an American? Will they live in the United States?
 
Somebody said:
UFO No More states:
"Yesterday, Celina d'Abo married Jake Gordano in Cambridgeshire. Celina is the niece to Chris O'Neill and Princess Madeleine - whose 3 children were in the bridal party."
Click to expand...

Twitter is currently blocking non-registered users from viewing the site, so thank you for quoting the post.
 
Margareta Thorgren said to Svensk Damtidning that Madeleine and her family are currently in Sweden. The family will travel back to the US before the school term, but the court will not tell the exact date.
Will Princess Madeleine carry out any official missions in Sweden in the future?
- We will have to come back to that.
Hovet bekräftar_ Chris och Madeleine har bestämt sig _*Svensk Dam
 
LadyFinn said:
Margareta Thorgren said to Svensk Damtidning that Madeleine and her family are currently in Sweden. The family will travel back to the US before the school term, but the court will not tell the exact date.
Will Princess Madeleine carry out any official missions in Sweden in the future?
- We will have to come back to that.
Hovet bekräftar_ Chris och Madeleine har bestämt sig _*Svensk Dam
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From Ms. Thorgren's answer, it sounds as if there is a real possibility that the couple's move to Sweden will be canceled altogether. I cannot imagine why Princess Madeleine would not at least carry out occasional official engagements (the word Svensk Damtidning used was "uppdrag") with the rest of the royal family if they were to return in the future.
 
LadyFinn said:
Margareta Thorgren said to Svensk Damtidning that Madeleine and her family are currently in Sweden. The family will travel back to the US before the school term, but the court will not tell the exact date.
Will Princess Madeleine carry out any official missions in Sweden in the future?
- We will have to come back to that.
Hovet bekräftar_ Chris och Madeleine har bestämt sig _*Svensk Dam
Click to expand...

Wait, what? I really cannot keep up. One minute they are moving to Sweden, the next minute they are not.
 
Tatiana Maria said:
From Ms. Thorgren's answer, it sounds as if there is a real possibility that the couple's move to Sweden will be canceled altogether. I cannot imagine why Princess Madeleine would not at least carry out occasional official engagements (the word Svensk Damtidning used was "uppdrag") with the rest of the royal family if they were to return in the future.
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According to the article, which is in line with what the court has told us, the family's move to Sweden has only been postponed not cancelled. What it says is uncertain is if Princess Madeleine will carry out official engagements after returning to Sweden.
Personally I'll believe that they're moving to Sweden when I see it happen and I'll never stop entertaining the possibility that they might move abroad again.
As usual the otherwise very smoothly run Court PR, besides the occasional hiccup by the King (more prevalent earlier than today), only hits bumps in the road when it comes to Madeleine and her family.
 
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JR76 said:
According to the article, which is in line with what the court has told us, the family's move to Sweden has only been postponed not cancelled. What it says is uncertain is if Princess Madeleine will carry out official engagements after returning to Sweden.
Personally I'll believe that they're moving to Sweden when I see it happen and I'll never stop entertaining the possibility that they might move abroad again.
As usual the otherwise very smoothly run Court PR, besides the occasional hiccup by the King (more prevalent earlier than today), only hits bumps in the road when it comes to Madeleine and her family.
Click to expand...

It sounded a bit "weird", I agree.
I thought she might simply want to spend the last period of her parents life closer to them. And not to put the children to swedish school in autumn but return to the US, I don't believe all that fuss about not having had the time to prepare...

I hope it's not a crush in the couple's relationship, but still find it hard for a person like Chris to live in Sweden only. Of course I do not know him personally but just a feeling it would not suit him, his business life....to young to retire.

Would be surprised if Madeleine was only after the titles, which is often reported in media. This is anachronism, think she is clever enough to face future reality,and as herself will take over the Childhood Dound. from her mother, she'll be fine and have her " officcial" role always.
Another thing is the climate change, much better place to live in the future is of course Scandinavia.
And the system, society.... is sooo different to the US, it's easy to understand if she just wanted a better place for her children to grow up and move home.
But as a scandinavian myself, I have to say this :D
 
Margareta Thorgren told to Svensk Damtidning that the family has left Sweden and went back home to Miami.
- It is true that they have left Sweden, but we will not go out with when they traveled home, confirms Margareta Thorgren.
But Madeleine and Chris will attend the festivities of the King's Golden Jubilee in September.
- Yes, exactly, there is a plan for that, says Margareta Thorgren.
Hovet bekräftar_ Madeleine och Chris har lämnat Sverige _*Svensk Dam
 
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The whole family is back in Sweden for the big Jubilee celebration.
- It is nice that they have the opportunity to participate and it is a unique and big Jubilee, says Margaretha Thorgren.
Madeleine and her family are to leave their luxury residence in Florida and move back home to Sweden permanently. The idea was that they would move already this summer, but the court has previously announced that the move will be postponed until next year. The reason the family is moving later than expected is that they need more time to fix everything before the move.
Exactly when next year the moving load goes has not been decided.
- When we have it, we will of course share it, says Margaretha Thorgren.
Prinsessan Madeleine i Sverige inför storfirandet _ Kungligt _ Expressen

Madeleine was seen in Stockholm.
Prinsessan Madeleine fotad i Sverige utan Chris _*Svensk Dam

Madeleine attended the King's Jubilee events today.
 
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In the US they can feel more anonymous.
 
Svensk Damtidning about Chris's companies
Expressen has reported that Wilton Payments has been losing money for several years and that the company is so small that it is not necessary to give a full annual report.
Now Chris has left another company in crisis.
Chris became a partner in Gloucester Rain LLP (then called Dr Foster Holdings LLP) in May 2012. Now at Companies House, the government authority in charge of company registration in England, you can see that Chris has left the company on August 29.
Chris left after Gloucester Rain LLP had a tough period. The credit institution Endole has long had a rather grim analysis of the situation in the company. They have previously made the assessment that Gloucester Rain LLP was on the verge of bankruptcy.
Chris O'Neill har officiellt lämnat – pappren klara _*Svensk Dam
 
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