The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #81  
Old 06-07-2014, 04:37 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,330
Most people whether of any religion or of none prefer to mark the major events in their lives with some ceremony. In the case of Spain I would imagine that the majority of the mainly Cathoilc populace, whether they attend Mass every week or not, baptize their children; marry in Church and receive requiem Masses upon dying. Many other people wish to mark the major milestones in their lives in a similar fashion be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Humanist, whatever. Felipe is a Catholic, how devout I don't know, but to have had a Mass asking for God's blessing on his Kingship I think would have been most appropriate and I think most Spaniards would have understood this.
__________________

  #82  
Old 06-07-2014, 04:38 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 66
Oh :-(. I was looking forward to a nice big event!
__________________

  #83  
Old 06-07-2014, 05:01 PM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 6,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by angela View Post
Most people whether of any religion or of none prefer to mark the major events in their lives with some ceremony. In the case of Spain I would imagine that the majority of the mainly Cathoilc populace, whether they attend Mass every week or not, baptize the majority of their children; marry in Church and receive requiem Masses upon dying. Many, if not most, people wish to mark the major milestones in their lives in a similar fashion be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim,humanist, whatever. Felipe is a Catholic, how devout I don't know, but to have had a Mass asking for God's blessing on his Kingship I think would have been most appropriate and I think most Spaniards would have understood this.
Exactly. What difference does it make if most Spaniards have lost their faith and abandoned the Church? What has that to do with anything? The monarchy and the Church are historically linked. Always have been and always will be. The Brits are wise enough to understand this, and have resisted all efforts to secularize their monarchy even though most of QEII's subjects have discarded the Anglican Church.

If you drop one, mark my words the other will soon follow.

The monarchy and the SRF need all the blessings they can possibly get, imo.
__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena
  #84  
Old 06-07-2014, 05:17 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,330
I disagree that when people stop attending Church it automatically means they have abandoned faith. I myself rarely attend Church because the demands of the modern world make it difficult but I am a definite Catholic as far as I am concerned and so are my husband and children.
  #85  
Old 06-07-2014, 05:34 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Kingdom, Heard and McDonald Islands
Posts: 4,061
I hope the future King will attend a Mass in his private chapel before the civil ceremony of the accession.
  #86  
Old 06-07-2014, 05:35 PM
carlota's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: , United States
Posts: 7,086
i have no doubt that leonor and sofia will be present at least at some of the events of the inauguration
__________________
Sign the United Nations Universal Declaration on Animal Welfare: http://www.animalsmatter.org
YOUR DAILY CLICK HELPS ANIMALS SURVIVE!
Feed an animal in need, click for free.
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
Take some time to sign the petitions @: http://www.thepetitionsite.com/animal-welfare/all
  #87  
Old 06-07-2014, 05:44 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Spring Hill, United States
Posts: 2,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I hope so. Nothing invokes a sense of reverence, duty and respect like a cold, secular inauguration, no? Just leave God out of it and all will be well!

All sarcasm aside I am both saddened and confused by how eager people seem to be to cut out and suppress what has been, for better or worse- the second most defining institution in the history of Spain...the Roman Catholic Church.

Why must people in their never ending quest for what they feel is integration and "progress" abandon the things that make them special, who they are?

Would Spain still be Spain without it's monasteries, it's spectacular Cathedrals and it's identity as a Catholic country?

Don't be so quick to abandon it all for secularism and atheism. It's not all it's cracked up to be.

God bless and good luck to the new King and Queen but I have no interest at all in watching this "installation".
No one said anything about atheism. Spain, as many nations have a separation of church and state, which is a good way to run a nation. The Dutch installed their wonderful King Willem-Alexander and the Belgians installed their wonderful King Phillipe, without any religious ceremonies and all works well. There is no need to stuff a specific belief in anyone's face any longer. Each can believe what they will. The king represents them all. Separation of church and state in quite important, it is part of the foundation of my nation.
  #88  
Old 06-07-2014, 05:54 PM
ANNIE_S's Avatar
Super Moderator
Picture of the Week Coordinator
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: -, Spain
Posts: 3,257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Exactly. What difference does it make if most Spaniards have lost their faith and abandoned the Church? What has that to do with anything? The monarchy and the Church are historically linked. Always have been and always will be. The Brits are wise enough to understand this, and have resisted all efforts to secularize their monarchy even though most of QEII's subjects have discarded the Anglican Church.

If you drop one, mark my words the other will soon follow.

The monarchy and the SRF need all the blessings they can possibly get, imo.
Most Spaniards, Catholic or not, practicing or not, prefer not mixing up religion and State, and this is the most State affair that can exist. I don´t know why it is so difficult to understand.

He can have a private religious ceremony if he wants to, but it isn´t going to be an official one. In other words, no Spaniard is going to be forced to attend or see a ceremony of a religion he doesn´t feel belong to in order to see the new king proclamation. No way.

The king must be the king of every Spaniard, not only Catholics. There are agnostic Spaniards, atheist Spaniards, Muslim Spaniards...and all them have the right to belong to this country.

You really can´t compare the situation in UK, where the Head of State is also the Head of the Anglican Church, with a country like Spain where nobody, not even within the RF is forced to belong to a religion. The RF is Catholic because they want to, but they´re not forced to be so. It is not the case, but if Felipe wasn´t Catholic he still would be the rightful king of Spain. It is not the case, but if F&L were not married by the church but only civil married, she still would be the rightful queen of Spain because only the civil laws matter on the State charges, not the Catholic ones.

We don´t even know if they will have a private mass the next day that we won´t see, that can perfectly be. But there is not going to be a mass as a part of the festivities.
__________________
Palaces are not the ones that dignify kings; kings are the ones who honor them with their presence.
Isabel, ep. 26

  #89  
Old 06-07-2014, 06:04 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: n/a, United States
Posts: 691
Quote:
Originally Posted by angela View Post
Most people whether of any religion or of none prefer to mark the major events in their lives with some ceremony. In the case of Spain I would imagine that the majority of the mainly Cathoilc populace, whether they attend Mass every week or not, baptize their children; marry in Church and receive requiem Masses upon dying. Many other people wish to mark the major milestones in their lives in a similar fashion be they Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Humanist, whatever. Felipe is a Catholic, how devout I don't know, but to have had a Mass asking for God's blessing on his Kingship I think would have been most appropriate and I think most Spaniards would have understood this.
I don't think it's that people are saying they shouldn't have some sort of Mass, it just seems like the decision has already been made, and some people are okay with the fact that they've decided not to have one. I don't know that much of an issue has been made of it in Spain at all, and that's where it matters most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Exactly. What difference does it make if most Spaniards have lost their faith and abandoned the Church? What has that to do with anything? The monarchy and the Church are historically linked. Always have been and always will be. The Brits are wise enough to understand this, and have resisted all efforts to secularize their monarchy even though most of QEII's subjects have discarded the Anglican Church.

If you drop one, mark my words the other will soon follow.

The monarchy and the SRF need all the blessings they can possibly get, imo.
Not that I'm in favor of secularizing monarchies or anything, but often such historical links have lead to a more secular population. In the case of Felipe's installment, whether or not a mass is held is going to have little effect on the faith of the population - and if he is religious himself, I'm sure he can find a way to worship in a private way, if he wishes. I'm religious myself, and think a religious ceremony would always be nice, but shouldn't be forced out of some sense of duty, because then I think it can just end up being a bit hollow. (I hope I've made sense - it's certainly a complex issue in general, and one on which I can understand multiple perspectives, but I'm trying to keep it brief.)
  #90  
Old 06-07-2014, 07:35 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 15,861
Huge security operation for the proclamation of King Felipe

! Spanish News Today - Huge Security Operation For Proclamation Of The New King Of Spain
__________________
20th of December 1963,Birth of The Infanta Elena, Duchess of Lugo
  #91  
Old 06-09-2014, 03:37 AM
Alondra's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by ANNIE_S View Post
I feel strange explaining these things, because nothing is really official yet so I feel like I could be giving you wrong information and messing things even more , but still...

About King Juan Carlos proclamation: the event where Sofia wears the hot pink dress was the day of the proclamation. There were no foreign guest at that ceremony.

The event where she wears the blue dress with mantilla was the Te Deum (mass) at San Jerónimo´s church. That was a different day, short after the proclamation, and there were many foreign guest that can be seen in the video posted by An Ard Ri. Afterwards, they went to the Royal Palace and had a balcony appearance (I assume there was a reception/lunch/dinner too).

What we can expect similar to this on Felipe´s proclamation:

Well, the ceremony of proclamation at the Parliament should be quite similar. We don´t know yet about the protocol, but uniforms/morning dress for men and long dress (no tiara and no orders) for ladies like that occasion is quite possible.

Before that ceremony can take place, King Juan Carlos must "stop being king", so he has to signed the Organic Law destined to that (that Law is what the parliament is now preparing and will be ready on June 18th, after the approvals of both Congress and Senate). According to the most recent information, that would take place in a short ceremony the same day that the proclamation, quite probably at the Royal Palace of Madrid (similar to the Dutch abdication). After that happens, Felipe will be already King of Spain, but he has to be inmediately sworn at the Parliament-and it is then when they will go to the Parliament and the ceremony of proclamation takes place.

Since everything happens the same day (probably the same morning), I don´t think we´ll see different clothes from one event to another.

And we are guessing that there will not be foreign guests that day, so if there is going to be some kind of mass, party or reception in order to receiving foreign dignataries, that will be on a different day like it happened with KJC and QS.

Hope this helps
Annie, I think you've done a wonderful job explaining JC proclamation and what to expect with Felipe's. Our monarchy is pretty austere when it comes to ceremonial - we are more about political governance than royal pageantry.

In relation to those asking for a lack of mass, Spain’s article 16.3 of the Constitution states that religious confession can’t be part of the estate. When Juan Carlos swore his own proclamation he did so under Franco’s laws at a time when there was no separation of church and estate. Felipe’s swearing as Prince of Asturias was a secular ceremony, and so will be this one.
  #92  
Old 06-09-2014, 03:51 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,930
I think your monarchy is quite spectacular when it comes to ceremony. Yesterday I saw the ceremonies for the Fallen at the Plaza de Lealtad in Madrid, it was all very beautiful, colourful and perfectly organized. The royal residences in Spain are unbelievably grand and impressive. The ceremonial for Ambassadors offering their Letters of Credence to the King, is one of the most impressive in the world.

Picture: an Ambassador arrives at the Royal Palace in Madrid, source: guardiareal.org
http://www.guardiareal.org/Galerias/...jad_grande.jpg
  #93  
Old 06-09-2014, 04:06 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Christmas Island
Posts: 5,930
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
The monarchy and the Church are historically linked. Always have been and always will be. The Brits are wise enough to understand this, and have resisted all efforts to secularize their monarchy even though most of QEII's subjects have discarded the Anglican Church.
There is one major difference: Spain, but also the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, etc. are secular states. This means: the State has no religion. All citizens are free to practize a religion, or have no Faith at all, the State observes a neutrality.

The King of Spain (or of the Netherlands, or of Belgium, or of Sweden, etc.) are head of that secular state and are, like all citizens, free to practize a religion (or not). The Investiture of His Majesty however, is no religious ceremony but a civil act.

In the United Kingdom, the Church of England still has a privileged position as state church. The King of England still is the supreme governor of that Church. Archbishops and bishops from the Church of England reside in Parliament. The Church of England enjoys privileges other Churches do not have.

Note that King Felipe VI is absolutely free to attend Holy Mass or another religious activity. We have so often seen members of the Spanish royal family attending religious events. But THIS ceremony is purely based on the conditions laid down by the Constitution of Spain. That Constitution says that the King needs to make an allegation before Parliament and then is proclaimed before the Nation.

In Belgium, in Luxembourg, in Spain, all references to God have been scrapped from legal documents. In the Netherlands, where the same secularization has happened, the Government understands that it is maybe better to do the same, but they see it as "historic patrimonium" and have maintained these formulas.

So Willem-Alexander concluded his oath with: "So help me God Almighty!". His Laws start with the formula: "We, Willem-Alexander, by the grace of God King of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Etc. Etc. Etc." or he writes formal letters to Parliament ending with: "And herewith We command You in the Lord's holy protection". On Dutch coins of 2 Euro still the motto "God Be With Us" can be read. Purists in Parliament want to remove these. Successive secular Governments have decided to keep these old formulas purely as unharmful tradition, not meaning that the State has a religion indeed.

  #94  
Old 06-09-2014, 04:17 AM
Alondra's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There is one major difference: Spain, but also the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, etc. are secular states. This means: the State has no religion. All citizens are free to practize a religion, or have no Faith at all, the State observes a neutrality.

The King of Spain (or of the Netherlands, or of Belgium, or of Sweden, etc.) are head of that secular state and are, like all citizens, free to practize a religion (or not). The Investiture of His Majesty however, is no religious ceremony but a civil act.

In the United Kingdom, the Church of England still has a privileged position as state church. The King of England still is the supreme governor of that Church. Archbishops and bishops from the Church of England reside in Parliament. The Church of England enjoys privileges other Churches do not have.

Note that King Felipe VI is absolutely free to attend Holy Mass or another religious activity. We have so often seen members of the Spanish royal family attending religious events. But THIS ceremony is purely based on the conditions laid down by the Constitution of Spain. That Constitution says that the King needs to make an allegation before Parliament and then is proclaimed before the Nation.

In Belgium, in Luxembourg, in Spain, all references to God have been scrapped from legal documents. In the Netherlands, where the same secularization has happened, the Government understands that it is maybe better to do the same, but they see it as "historic patrimonium" and have maintained these formulas.

So Willem-Alexander concluded his oath with: "So help me God Almighty!". His Laws start with the formula: "We, Willem-Alexander, by the grace of God King of the Netherlands, Prince of Orange-Nassau, Etc. Etc. Etc." or he writes formal letters to Parliament ending with: "And herewith We command You in the Lord's holy protection". On Dutch coins of 2 Euro still the motto "God Be With Us" can be read. Purists in Parliament want to remove these. Successive secular Governments have decided to keep these old formulas purely as unharmful tradition, not meaning that the State has a religion indeed.

Superb post. Thanks.
  #95  
Old 06-10-2014, 11:09 AM
PrincessofEurope's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: *, United Kingdom
Posts: 3,196
I hope they release new formal portraits of the couple - in day wear and also tiara and orders. A nice of the Infantas as well with their parents to mark the occassion.
__________________
This is the stuff of fairytales

  #96  
Old 06-10-2014, 11:39 AM
Tilia C.'s Avatar
Super Moderator
Picture of the Week Coordinator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: O, Germany
Posts: 4,422
New portraits would be nice indeed. There really should be at least one formal portrait of the new king and queen in gala wear with tiara and orders. It has never been done for the Asturias couple.

I don't think that they will highlight the Infantas. The NOOS case is still too fresh.
  #97  
Old 06-10-2014, 12:11 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: NN, Lithuania
Posts: 1,142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tilia C. View Post
New portraits would be nice indeed. There really should be at least one formal portrait of the new king and queen in gala wear with tiara and orders. It has never been done for the Asturias couple.

I don't think that they will highlight the Infantas. The NOOS case is still too fresh.
little Infantas
  #98  
Old 06-10-2014, 12:48 PM
Tilia C.'s Avatar
Super Moderator
Picture of the Week Coordinator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: O, Germany
Posts: 4,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spheno View Post
little Infantas
Stupid me!
  #99  
Old 06-11-2014, 06:28 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 1,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I hope the future King will attend a Mass in his private chapel before the civil ceremony of the accession.
Prince Felipe got married in a public Catholic ceremony. It was not a private event at the palace's chapel, but rather a state event with foreign heads of state and government in attendance. The 1979 Spanish constitution was already in force back then, but no one claimed a public religious wedding for the heir apparent and his bride would be unconstitutional.

I don't see why a public thanksgiving mass to mark the new Spanish king's accession would be any different now. Franly, I think the Spanish government is making a mistake.

Of course, a thanksgiving mass does not exclude or replace the secular proclamation ceremony in the Cortes as mandated by the constitution, in the same way Prince Felipe's religious wedding ceremony was no substitute for a civil marriage as required by law. In Belgium, for example, which is also a secular state, King Philippe took the constitutional oath in Parliament as the Belgian constitution requires, but also attended a Te Deum mass at the Brussels cathedral before that. There was no controversy, as there appears to be now in Spain.
  #100  
Old 06-11-2014, 06:32 PM
Jacknch's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Suffolk/Budapest, Hungary
Posts: 4,940
King Juan Carlos abdication: 'Austere coronation' is wasted opportunity say royalists - Telegraph
__________________

__________________
JACK
Closed Thread

Tags
enthronement, inauguration, king felipe vi, musings, queen letizia, spain


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Proclamation of King Felipe VI: June 19, 2014 dazzling King Felipe VI, Queen Letizia and Family 251 08-01-2014 06:40 AM
Spanish Proclamation: Fashion Choices dazzling Royal Style File 72 06-28-2014 08:44 AM
Where to Watch the Abdication and Proclamation Fürstin Taxis Royal Family of Spain 31 06-19-2014 04:13 PM
Victoria and Daniel's Wedding Suggestions & Musings Josefine Crown Princess Victoria, Prince Daniel and Family 280 06-15-2010 04:02 PM
Madeleine & Jonas' Wedding: Suggestions & Musings Lumutqueen Princess Madeleine, Chris O'Neill and Family 26 04-28-2010 02:14 PM




Popular Tags
ascot 2016 best gown best gown september 2016 best hat best outfit catherine middleton style coup d'etat crown prince haakon crown princess mary crown princess mary fashion crown princess mette-marit current events duchess of cambridge dutch state visit e-mail fashion poll grand duke jean greece infanta elena style kate middleton king abdullah ii king felipe king felipe vi king willem-alexander member introduction monarchy new zealand nobel 2015 nobel gala norway november 2016 october 2016 opening of parliament picture of the week prince bernhard prince charles prince philip princess marie princess mary princess mary daytime fashion princess mary fashion princess mary hats princess tatiana queen letizia queen letizia casual outfits queen letizia daytime fashion queen letizia fashion queen letizia style queen mathilde queen mathildes outfits queen maxima queen maxima casual wear queen maxima daytime fashion queen maxima fashion queen maxima gowns queen maxima hats queen maxima style queen rania royal fashion september 2016 state visit state visit to denmark stockholm succession sweden the duchess of cambridge the duchess of cambridge casual wear the duchess of cambridge daytime fashion the duchess of cambridge fashion the duchess of cambridge hats


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:19 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2016
Jelsoft Enterprises