The Family and Background of the Duchess of Cambridge, the Middletons 1, Until 2022

[Iluvbertie]

How are the parents or the wife demonstrating themselves to be social climbers? They / she is a successful entrepreneur, and her wealth allows her access to all sorts of events / venues that she may not otherwise have. If that is social climbing, I am all for it. Why should she not enjoy the benefits of what she has earned?




When was the last time the royal family had a not "unequal marriage"? Diana, Sarah, Sophie, Mark, Tim, Tony A-J, Philip, the QM,..... Mary of Teck?

Elizabeth and Philip would certainly be regarded as an equal marriage surely - he was about 4th or 5th in line to the Greek throne in his own right at the time of his marriage, was the grandson of a king and that king was the brother of Elizabeth's own great-grandmother.

To, as I am sure some will argue, that the Mountbatten line makes it unequal well then the Queen's own antecedents also include the line from British aristocracy to equal out the Mountbatten line.

 

[Wisteria]

When was the last time the royal family had a not "unequal marriage"? Diana, Sarah, Sophie, Mark, Tim, Tony A-J, Philip, the QM,..... Mary of Teck?

Sarah, Sophie, Philip, the Queen mother and Mary of Teck were all from the aristocracy or descended from them and royalty. I won´t talk about Mark and Tim because I just don´t know. Tony Armstrong Jones? No, I dont know about him´, but from what I have read, just because Kate´s mother sells party products on the internet does not change her family background.
Has anyone actually heard her talk? Also has any mention been made of the Middleton senior´s social circle? Just interested that is all.

 

[Zonk]

I don't think you can compare the backgrounds of Sarah, Sophie and Carole Middleton with the Phillip, Queen Mother and Mary of Teck. Mary of Teck and Phillip were royal prior to their marriages.

Sarah and the Queen Mother were/are descended from members of the aristrocracy. (the QM more than Sarah).

Sophie and Carole Middleton are from the same social beginnings.

 

[Wisteria]

Sophie and Carole Middleton are from the same social beginnings.

Sorry Zonk but you are absolutely wrong. Sophie is a distant cousin of her husband, Sarah, Diana etc etc.
Carole is absolutely not, she is from a coal mining family, and there is no shame in that, hardworking people doing what I consider the worst and most dangerous job in the world but aristocracy and royalty - no way.

 

[Zonk]

Well, I need to check out the Sophie forum because Wikipedia (which I acknowledge is not a reliable site) does not give Sophie's beginnings.

I am fully aware that both Sarah and Diana are/were descended from the wrong side of the blanket.

But if we are going to do uneven comparisons, and we are talking about perceived social climbers we can certainly talk about Mary of Tech and Lord Louis Mountbatten, who definitely saw the advantages of their daughter/nephew dating and then marrying into the royal family.

Carole Middleton does appear to have some issues per se and you can definitely tell that she is not from a certain class but I would hardly call her a social climber. As most have mentioned, she and her husband have earned their money the old fashioned way...they earned it. Now we can all denigrate Party pieces if we want...but it has certainly been a good and profitable business that it enabled them to send each of their children to good schools, provide them with a nice home and great vacations. Anyone can become a millionaire if you have a good idea and market it. Look at the people who created white out and post-its!

 

[Wisteria]

Here you are:-

GeneAll.net - Edward, Earl of Wessex

The red dots next to both Prince Edward´s and Sophies names signifies that they are both descended from King William the Conqueror 1066.

Both Louis Mountbatten and Mary of Teck were from royalty but unfortunately impoverished, so naturally it was an advantage to marry well and have money, but they were not as far as bloodline is concerned (remember Kate´s uncle Gary´s words?) unequal.
These days money seems to be the key to everything but it cannot buy a royal or aristocratic background, not an authentic one at least.

 

[Zonk]

Thanks Wisteria! I will check it out.

So you can be royal, impoverished but if you want to better your chances by marrying up its okay? But not okay for those who are hard working? A bit of double standard isn't it?

And not to get too off topic, but all those members of the aristcracy who in the early part of the 20th century had the bloodlines, the stately homes and not the money, so they married the new nouvea riche American and Spanish girls? But the new money is looked down on....still a double standard.

Still, I am not sure if the question has been answered on what definitely makes Carole Middleton a social climber?

Let's face it...it would be nice if William married a girl from the right side of the social scene but then what the Daily Mail do?!

 

[Elspeth]

Sorry Zonk but you are absolutely wrong. Sophie is a distant cousin of her husband, Sarah, Diana etc etc.
Carole is absolutely not, she is from a coal mining family, and there is no shame in that, hardworking people doing what I consider the worst and most dangerous job in the world but aristocracy and royalty - no way.

I think this depends on what you mean by social beginnings (as opposed to genealogical ones). The fact that one or another commoner marrying into the royal family descended from a king several hundred years ago is a bit irrelevant if the family itself has been in the lower middle class for the last few generations. I'm sure there are descendants of William the Conqueror and even Charles II living working-class lives at the moment, and without any of the advantages that Kate Middleton has had from her family's money. I mean, really, would people be holding back from the social-climber label if it was found that Mrs Middleton was descended from Alfred the Great or something? These royal connections are so far-distant as to be meaningless in the 21st century. In the 1970s, Diana was considered a suitable bride for Charles because (among other things) her father was an earl, not because she descended from Charles II. Sarah also descended from Charles II, and she wouldn't have been considered suitable. Camilla was solidly in the upper classes (albeit not an aristocrat), and she also wasn't considered suitable, for much the same reasons that Sarah wouldn't have been. Sophie's immediate family was also self-made and middle-class - and I believe her father gave himself that double-barrelled surname because it was more impressive, which strikes me as the sort of thing a social climber would do - and I doubt that some long-ago connection to an ancient monarch would have made any difference.

 

[Wisteria]

and I doubt that some long-ago connection to an ancient monarch would have made any difference.

Well Kate hasn´t even got that.

 

[Lumutqueen]

These royal connections are so far-distant as to be meaningless in the 21st century.

I quite agree, they mean nothing in this day and age.

Sophie's immediate family was also self-made and middle-class - and I believe her father gave himself that double-barrelled surname because it was more impressive, which strikes me as the sort of thing a social climber would do - and I doubt that some long-ago connection to an ancient monarch would have made any difference.

Certainly sounds like something a social climber might do, but Sophie herself does not seem the type like that. I agree with some earlier posts that Mary of Teck and Lord Louis Mountbatten were extrem social climbers, just because they had a title doesn't make it any excuse.


I personally do not believe Carole Middleton is a social climber, if what she has done over the years has got her associated with a certain class of people thats not her fault, good on her I say.

 

[Marsel]

Well Kate hasn´t even got that.

I don’t think a comprehensive study of Kate’s ancestry has ever been conducted: the furthest we (that is to say, Daily Mail and other newspapers) ever got was her great-great-grandfather.
If her engagement to William is announced, I am sure genealogists will find one or two Royals among her ancestors.

 

[Dierna23]

I agree with some earlier posts that Mary of Teck and Lord Louis Mountbatten were extrem social climbers, just because they had a title doesn't make it any excuse.

Why was Mary of Teck a social climber? I see nothing that she did herself what could cause this declaration, but correct me if I'm wrong.

In my opinion Lord Louis Mountbatten and Mary of Teck can't be compared with Carol Middleton. They both may had the shortcoming because of morganatic marriages in their families, but Queen Mary was a greatgranddaughter of King George III. through her mother and through her father descended from the House of Wurttemberg and through that from the Houses of Habsburg and Wittelsbach. Lord Louis per se was a great grandchild of Queen Victoria and a grandson of the Grand Duke of Hesse. So, they were real aristocracy. Lord Louis may have been ambitious with his issues, true. But in the end his daughters married a Baron and a common interior designer. I personally wouldn't call Louis or Mary social climbers, because they were part of the aristocratic society at least.

However - what about Michael Middleton? I found him at thePeerage.com - Main Page and I thought only aristocracy, those who descend from it or royalty or those who married into aristocracy/royalty are listed there? Has anybody information about that?

 

[Lady Ann]

Mary of Teck was a princess in her own right she did not have to clumb very far of the social food chain. IMO

 

[Zonk]

For the record, Wikipedia defines A social climber is someone who seeks social prominence, for example by obsequious behavior. The term is sometimes used as synonymous parvenu, one who has suddenly risen to a higher economic status but has not gained social acceptance of others in that class. "Social climber" may be used as an insult, suggesting a poor work ethic or disloyalty to roots.

And while Princess May was a Princess she was born a Serene Highness. So she was a but she was a bit further down the chain. And Mary of Teck was considered a social climber because she had no money and she was just that a Serene Highness with no money. Marrying her daughter into the royal family boosted her social status.

And Lord Louis Mountbatten is not considered by some to be a social climber due to the marriages of his daughter but rather how some in the Establishment (mainly I think the Queen Mother) felt he pushed his nephew, Philip of Greece to be Elizabeth's husband. Which is silly since she fell for him when she was very young.

Now if we are going by Wikipedias definition, I am still not sure I would characterize Carole Middleton as a social climber. She has displayed some dubious behavior but nothing truly offensive as I can see.

 

[Dierna23]

Well, I as a commoner wouldn't wether Lord Louis nor Princess May call a social climber. It may be that some courtiers or higher members of the royal family would have said something like that, but I doubt it. I think it depends on your own position as well. Its like with Princess Marina's statement about the Queen Mother and Princess Alice. I bet, a common scottish girl wouldn't have seen them as common scottish girls, but Marina was a princess in her own right... It's a narrow level sometimes.

But my common sense defines a social climber as someone who is a commoner and becomes for example a self made-millionaire. Joseph P. Kennedy, John F. Kennedys father, was called for example an irish Parvenu and his family was never full accepted by the "Brahmins" of Boston. Behaviour plays an important role as well.

 

[Zonk]

Dierna23...you raise excellent points as well. For a long time the family of JFK was considered not up to par as well as the family of Grace Kelly. I don't believe they were original Main Liners.

Lady Elizabeth Bowles Lyon and Lady Alice Montagu Douglas Scott could have been considered social climbers as well.

I guess my point is what makes Carole Middleton so different? She earns an honest and good living. She sent her kids to schools that were better than the schools she went to. Isn't that what good parents do...want better for their kids than they had?

Her daughter happens to be dating the 2nd in the line to the British throne. While I am sure (cause I don't know) that sounds fantastic I would think (and hope) she would be just as happy if her daughter fell in love with a plumber. Which is a also an honest and good professon.

We have veered off slight to the left of topic but I think Mary of Teck, the Queen Mother, Lord Louis Mountbatten, and Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester were used as reference points. It can't be okay for some to marry above their station and not others.

People constantly throw out the claim that Mrs. Middleton is a social climber and to some its an unjust claim. Now if you look at her and you plain just don't like her, well that's your opinion and I have people in the news that I feel the same way about. But if you have a set of rules, it should be used the same way.

 

[Lady Ann]

Zonk wasn't Mary of Teck only consindered for Royal marriage to both princes becasue Qeen Vicoria thought her a strong match for a royal bride. I know that her father had no money and her mother recieved a income from her cambridge relitives but still for QV to think a a good match her family had to have some standing in the royal circiles please correct me if I mistaken in any statement. I do agree with you that Carole Middleton does not seem like a social climber to me either she has worked hard to provide a good life for her children.

 

[Zonk]

Lady Ann,

I would happy to continue the conversation here http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f165/queen-mary-1867-1953-a-5985.html .

I am not sure what QV personally thought of QM other than a lot of people (esp QV) in the family thought May would be a good influence Eddy (Prince Albert Victor). As he had a somewhat dubious work ethic and life.

I am no fan of Carole Middleton but neither do I totally dislike her. Like her daughter I am ambivalent.

I do, however, think its a natural curiousity for the press to write about Kate and her family. Its the only way that the press can learn about Kate. It happened with Diana, Sarah, Camilla and Sophie. I wasn't around for Mark Phillips, but I remember reading a little bit about Tim's people. It even happened with Autumn.

I learned more about Sarah and Diana's parents relationship before either woman was divorced. More than I wanted to know.

 

[Wisteria]

I don´t think it is a case of liking or disliking Carole Middleton, most of us don´t know her at all, but when it comes to approving of her it is a different question all together.
As the mother-in-law of my future King I do not think she is suitable, I do not think
Kate´s brother is a suitable brother-in-law for my future King, nor do I think that Uncle Gary is a suitable uncle-in-law for my future King. That is all.
Also I think that if Diana had a hard time of it with Prince Charle´s circle when she was already the Princess of Wales and the daughter of an Earl then how is Kate going to fare? She is at the moment, how do they say it in royal biographies, "the confidante" of
Prince William, I am fine with that and from what I can read between the lines she and the family seem quite fine with that too. He will have to think about getting married at some time in the future I and I only hope he chooses wisely.

 

[udyusa]

I have to say that I agree with you, Wisteria. None of us here seem to know Carole Middleton well enough to pass judgement on her, one way or another. And yet, I feel as you do. I do hope that when William chooses his bride, he will do so wisely and choose with both his heart And his mind. I am thinking that he will.....

 

[Westminster]

I don´t think it is a case of liking or disliking Carole Middleton, most of us don´t know her at all, but when it comes to approving of her it is a different question all together.

Amen. I feel allways a bit sorry for Kate she seems to be a normal girl but her family doesn't seem very fitting for the british royal family. I remember her brother in woman clothes, her uncle is a cocaine-brain. Too many scandals for my taste. Only the father we dont see much. What does he do with his life?

 

[Mermaid1962]

He works???? Perhaps he's an introvert who doesn't like socializing as much as the women in his family do.

Only the father we dont see much. What does he do with his life?

 

[Westminster]

does anybody know what he works? Sorry, but I really don't know. In the end he seems to be one of the most likable members of the Middleton-family in my eyes because I don't see and hear much of him.

 

[windsorgirl]

I believe this is a new (albeit similar) article about Carole Middleton's choice of dress the other night. I don't understand the reference to her saying "pardon me" at some previous engagement as though it were a faux pas. Can anyone enlighten me there? I did enjoy the writer's self-deprecation before launching into her issues with Mrs. Middleton.

Carol Middleton puts family silver on show - Telegraph

 

[Wisteria]

I don't understand the reference to her saying "pardon me" at some previous engagement as though it were a faux pas. Can anyone enlighten me there?

I am afraid that this is a British "thing" it is considered very low class to use "pardon me" or just "pardon" when the correct form is "Excuse me" this only applies to people living in, England and would never count as a faux pas or even be noticed if said by someone from another country. In Carole´s case the use of this, the use of the word toilet, and chewing gum at Sandhurst branded her as common, and this was before her brother Gary appeared on the scene.
Among the kind of people who surround the BRF the use of this phrase would cause, I am afraid, a snigger.
Before any foreigners or British users of these words shout "snob" remember I am just telling you the way it is - good or bad.

 

[Iluvbertie]

does anybody know what he works? Sorry, but I really don't know. In the end he seems to be one of the most likable members of the Middleton-family in my eyes because I don't see and hear much of him.

As I was under the impression that 'Party Pieces' was a family business I have always assumed that he worked at that along with his wife and children.

 

[Lady Ann]

Also I think that if Diana had a hard time of it with Prince Charle´s circle when she was already the Princess of Wales and the daughter of an Earl then how is Kate going to fare?

Well IMO, when I think of Diana, I try to remember that altough she was from the same circles (how ever one wants to lable her) she was 12 or some odd years younger the PC. His friends really had no conection to her prier to her being Princess of Wales and one might also say she tended to make herself the out cast,(depending on ones opinion). Where as Kate after dating William for so long already seems to fit right in with his circle and to me comes off as fine in her own skin and in her place in Williams life. She does not seem to compete with anyone for his attention the way Diana did for Charles'and IMO dose not feel she has too.

 

[Zonk]

Good points Lady Ann!

Its also worth noting that Sophie has a similar background to Kate and she has adapted very well. Although one should point out that she is married to the third son, so Edward doesn't have the pressure as Charles.

William and Kate dating for a long time is a good thing iMO. At least William knows that Kate can handle the pressure of the press (although it will be ten times worst if they get engaged and married). Truth be told, if Charles and Diana had dated for a longer time, they might have had a better understanding of each other or either broken up before getting married.

 

[Skydragon]

I am afraid that this is a British "thing" it is considered very low class to use "pardon me" or just "pardon" when the correct form is "Excuse me"

We don't use excuse me unless trying to pass someone, we just say 'what' or 'what did you say'! The Carol Middleton story regarding the use of the 'wrong' words was, IMO, invented by the press.

 

[Zonk]

It wouldn't surprise me is a lot of the Carole/Kate Middleton stories were created by the press.

Let's face it...the press was particulary spoiled during the Diana years. Someone who was willing to talk to them (off the record of course). More importantly, there were tons of scandalous stories to talk about and make up!