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  #301  
Old 12-19-2010, 09:37 PM
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Camilla is an opportuntist. Charles had his life carved out for him. He felt he could have both sides of his bread buttered, so to speak. He never worried about how he would conduct his "affair". It never happened before that a Princess of Wales went public. Times change. Diana, actually, wanted a full time husband. In her circumstances and set, that was ridiculous, but there was this insecure, teenager married to the POW. She wasn't sharing, but to her dismay, she didn't have to, he chose, the other woman, who made him feel important, loved and brilliant. Wow!!! She was smarter than Diana, and, certainly, had more experience, with men.
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  #302  
Old 12-19-2010, 10:13 PM
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I don't see how Camilla was an opportunist. If anyone was an opportunist it was Diana - a young woman who lies to the man about her interests (she claimed she liked blood sports to Charles) when she and Charles were 'dating' is the 'opportunist'. She saw Amanda Knatchbull decline the 'prize' and she knew now the chance had come round to her - and from all the evidence, she played her hand very well and won what all others had not.

There is no question that Diana suffered some serious self-image problems and for that deserves compassion, not censure - but those problems are part and parcel of control issues. I would not say she was insecure in those early days as perhaps too demanding - from what I gather. She seems to have absolutely believed that she should 'rule' and was discomfited with the reality of couple living - with a man who also was accustomed to be the final word. He had given her everything - by choosing her he had given her status and life-long privileges. He had favored her and in return she made it about herself, rather than him, her husband, from which all her status came.

Diana 'going public' was her attempt to control Charles - and to make it about her, again. Diana 'going public' was the saddest and most awful thing to watch - she had lost her moorings, her sense of 'self'. I winced as the drama proceeded and wondered why no one stopped it.

As best as I can make out, Camilla was as we all are in a loving relationship - supportive - something Diana was not, because it was about her. In that she was very immature. That's what I wind up seeing - I didn't see it at once, but eventually I came to realize what she had done. Camilla, for her part, was the friend of friends to Charles. I find Camilla remarkable the more I consider her.
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  #303  
Old 12-19-2010, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Camilla is an opportuntist. Charles had his life carved out for him. He felt he could have both sides of his bread buttered, so to speak. He never worried about how he would conduct his "affair". It never happened before that a Princess of Wales went public. Times change. Diana, actually, wanted a full time husband. In her circumstances and set, that was ridiculous, but there was this insecure, teenager married to the POW. She wasn't sharing, but to her dismay, she didn't have to, he chose, the other woman, who made him feel important, loved and brilliant. Wow!!! She was smarter than Diana, and, certainly, had more experience, with men.
I agree. Camilla along with being older than Diana was also a lot more mature than her. She was able to fulfill the needs of Charles that Diana couldn't fulfill because she was too emotionally immature and had the same needs that Charles had.
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  #304  
Old 12-19-2010, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by sirhon11234 View Post
I agree. Camilla along with being older than Diana was also a lot more mature than her. She was able to fulfill the needs of Charles that Diana couldn't fulfill because she was too emotionally immature and had the same needs that Charles had.

That doesn't make Camilla an opportunist but shows up why the marriage shouldn't have ever taken place - too needy people who should never have been together.

Diana had a romantic belief in life and her family gave her no guidance as they only saw the prize - the throne with a Spencer on it.

Camilla was quite happy being in the background as a friend but Diana had Camilla in her head and sent Charles, as a result back to Camilla's bed. I really do believe that Charles left Diana due to Diana being too demanding, too selfish, and too spoilt to give anything to the marriage as she expected to be spoilt by Charles for the rest of her life but he also understood that there was a duty to perform. By the time she understood that concept the marriage had ended and she had made her story, and her lies, public to manipulate people into believing her 'poor, pretty little me - I have been hardly used and you will all love me and pity me and take revenge on my husband for me'. She was the oppportunist who had it all and threw it away with her lack of trust which also shows a lack of love - which she admits she had as she entered the marriage.
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  #305  
Old 12-19-2010, 11:34 PM
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I never said Camilla was an opportunist, I should have made that clearer when I quoted Countess's post. I refuse to take sides on this old and tired argument of Charles and Camilla as the innocent victims vs Diana the spoiled evil witch, and that goes vice versa. Its pointless because that triangle is complex and not just black and white. These three people are not victims nor are they villains. All they wanted was to truly be with someone they loved. Yes they made bad decisions trying to get what they wanted but that doesen't make Charles, Diana, and Camilla bad people. At times selfish, definetly, but not bad. Its getting quite old that some feel the need to vilify these three. I see the negative and positive sides to Diana, Camilla, and Charles. The positive out weighs the negative imo.
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  #306  
Old 12-19-2010, 11:39 PM
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I am sorry that your post about Camilla being an opportunist wasn't clearer as I too tend to keep clear these days believing that most people know my views on these three and all the rest of those in the marriage - Diana's lovers and the two families and the staff and 'grey men' etc.
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  #307  
Old 12-20-2010, 07:12 AM
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I suspect this conversation may have veered far off the topic of the thread.
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  #308  
Old 12-20-2010, 07:32 AM
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Indeed it has....once AGAIN we are not going backwards and discussing
Diana but the early relationship of Charles and Camilla.
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  #309  
Old 12-20-2010, 09:07 PM
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As intertwined as the 3 stories are, I dont really know how one can discuss one without the others.
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  #310  
Old 12-20-2010, 09:21 PM
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Obviously the early relationship has to be pre-Diana - simple.
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  #311  
Old 12-20-2010, 09:23 PM
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Exactly.
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  #312  
Old 12-20-2010, 09:46 PM
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Zonk may I suggest that the title of the thread add the notes that it is 'pre-Diana' and then people shouldn't be going off topic so easily as it would be clearer about the time period.
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  #313  
Old 12-20-2010, 10:41 PM
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Just to be clear can we have a cut off year, which might narrow the discussion? Thank you!
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  #314  
Old 12-21-2010, 02:44 AM
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Perhaps the cut-off date could be 3rd July 1973, since Camilla married Andrew on the 4th.
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  #315  
Old 12-21-2010, 02:57 AM
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Perhaps the cut-off date could be 3rd July 1973, since Camilla married Andrew on the 4th.

However Charles and Camilla were involved and their friendship was strengthening after that date.

I would suggest the summer of 1980 when Diana started to come on the scene with Charles.
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  #316  
Old 12-22-2010, 07:44 PM
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However Charles and Camilla were involved and their friendship was strengthening after that date.

I would suggest the summer of 1980 when Diana started to come on the scene with Charles.
Diana was invited to Balmoral for the August bank holiday weekend by her brother-in-law Robert Fellowes on behalf of the Queen. Prince Charles's guests were Camilla & Andrew Parker-Bowles (who were considering getting divorced) and Nicolas Soames (with whose sister Andrew was then having an affair). There is no evidence that Prince Charles had any interest in Diana until January 1981 - 1 month before their engagement was announced.
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  #317  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by BellaFay View Post
Diana was invited to Balmoral for the August bank holiday weekend by her brother-in-law Robert Fellowes on behalf of the Queen. Prince Charles's guests were Camilla & Andrew Parker-Bowles (who were considering getting divorced) and Nicolas Soames (with whose sister Andrew was then having an affair). There is no evidence that Prince Charles had any interest in Diana until January 1981 - 1 month before their engagement was announced.

They were on a number of dates before that.

I was in London in December 1980 and she was in the press then and being mentioned as a prospective bride - I still have the papers from then as souvenirs of my trip (I bought a paper every day). They were predicting a February engagement.
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  #318  
Old 12-22-2010, 09:30 PM
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The frenzy started after 7.9.80 when Diana was spotted by Ken Lennox and James Whitaker with Charles while he was fishing in the River Dee at Balmoral. This was the occasion when she walked up to a tree and hid behind it and watched them with a mirror. Her behaviour made them curious and after that occasion her identity was discovered. In October 1980 The Sun had a headline stating Charles and Di would marry the following year.

Don't have time right now to hunt for the actual copy interview with Lennox, but this timing sounds right.

See: frontline: princess and the press: the royals and the press

Maybe the cutoff date for this thread should be the end of summer (i.e. 31st August) 1980, since as at that time there was no hint of a relationship between Charles and Diana.
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  #319  
Old 12-23-2010, 04:31 AM
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So in this article it is claiming that Camilla was with Charles prior to the marriage - is this a reliable source? This is Christopher Wilson with the Daily Mail - is it legit? Was the documentary correct?
Charles and Camilla were certainly lovers in the 1970s.

That has never really been questioned.

To discuss that issue further is beyond the remit of this thread.
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  #320  
Old 12-23-2010, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
The frenzy started after 7.9.80 when Diana was spotted by Ken Lennox and James Whitaker with Charles while he was fishing in the River Dee at Balmoral. This was the occasion when she walked up to a tree and hid behind it and watched them with a mirror. Her behaviour made them curious and after that occasion her identity was discovered. In October 1980 The Sun had a headline stating Charles and Di would marry the following year.

Don't have time right now to hunt for the actual copy interview with Lennox, but this timing sounds right.

See: frontline: princess and the press: the royals and the press

Maybe the cutoff date for this thread should be the end of summer (i.e. 31st August) 1980, since as at that time there was no hint of a relationship between Charles and Diana.
I remember that story, too, about when the press first photographed Diana dating (or hanging out with) Charles. I forget which book, but it mentioned the photographers staked out the spot hoping to catch Charles fishing with then-rumored girlfriend Anna Wallace, but instead saw the younger Diana, and that's how the media sensation started.
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