The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 2: Sep 2022-

[Mbruno]

Totally agree but I don't see it changing any time soon. It is clear that the late Queen didn't value her granddaughters enough to give them her family order (and remember that she had George V's family order and she was only 9 when he died so given it as a little girl and Margaret was even younger). She simply decided that the men could get all the honours and her blood relatives, who were female weren't worthy.

The Queen was reported to be personally very close to the York princesses. Obviously she didn't mix personal affection with official royal honors.

The princesses did not get the RFO probably because they were never expected to attend official events where they could wear it.

 

[Hallo girl]

Here's a list of Recipients (deceased and living)
Royal Family Order of Elizabeth II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Family_Order_of_Elizabeth_II

Thank you, I never thought to look it up there.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The late Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother ,Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon,Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester,Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent and Mary, Princess Royal and Countess of Harewood all had the following RFO's

Royal Family Order of King George V
Royal Family Order of King George VI
Royal Family Order of Queen Elizabeth II

Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone had the following
Royal Order of Victoria and Albert
Royal Family Order of George V
Royal Family Order of Elizabeth II

 

[yukari]

Totally agree but I don't see it changing any time soon. It is clear that the late Queen didn't value her granddaughters enough to give them her family order (and remember that she had George V's family order and she was only 9 when he died so given it as a little girl and Margaret was even younger). She simply decided that the men could get all the honours and her blood relatives, who were female weren't worthy.

Or maybe it has something to do with cost? Medals are basically just ribbon and metal disk, while even if (I suspect) RFO will no longer made from ivory and substitute with glass surely it will still be adorned by diamonds. Yes, the late Queen got her grandpa's RFO when she's 9, but it was a time when they would commission new tiara for royal brides. So maybe when the late queen wanted to gift her granddaughters with diamonds, she preferred to gift them in other forms (necklaces, brooches, etc) which they can wear in many occasions, instead of RFOs which most likely they won't have any chance to wear them.

 

[Princess B]

The RFO was never intended to be an award for service, it always implied that the person wearing the honour is family or close to the monarch.
As such, I think it’s sad that the York princesses and Zara didn’t receive one. I’d have liked the married in family to have also receive it, but these are blood relatives of the monarch as tall about.
As someone who received her grandfathers order for nothing (she wasn’t even expected to ascend to the throne then), I’d have liked the queen to be more generous with the order

 

[muriel]

The RFO was never intended to be an award for service, it always implied that the person wearing the honour is family or close to the monarch.
As such, I think it’s sad that the York princesses and Zara didn’t receive one. I’d have liked the married in family to have also receive it, but these are blood relatives of the monarch as tall about.
As someone who received her grandfathers order for nothing (she wasn’t even expected to ascend to the throne then), I’d have liked the queen to be more generous with the order

The RFO is in the personal gift of the monarch, and it is for the monarch of the day to set the rules. After all, the monarch is the font of all honour.

Each of us would like rules to be in one particular way or another. However, it just doesn't matter, it is for the monarch to decide.

 

[An Ard Ri]

The RFO is in the personal gift of the monarch, and it is for the monarch of the day to set the rules. After all, the monarch is the font of all honour.

Each of us would like rules to be in one particular way or another. However, it just doesn't matter, it is for the monarch to decide.

Some monarchs were more generous with it ,I did hope that the queens granddaughters would have been awarded it before she passed.
Again that was just my thought and not a criticism of her late Majesty.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

I expect The Queen, The Princess of Wales, The Duchess of Edinburgh, The Princess Royal, The Duchess of Gloucester, and Princess Alexandra to be the first recipients of a new RFO… With The Queen’s order probably a bit more elaborate than the others to mark the difference…

It would be nice to see The Duchess of Kent reciveing one as well despite being retired, due to her many years as one of the hardest working royals…

But maybe that would trigger a reaction from other members to give it to Beatrice, Eugenie, Zara, Louise, and Princess Michael of Kent as well… I personally think they all should recive one but i’m quite sure they won’t

 

[Iluvbertie]

The argument could be that Charles is going to give his order to all those who had his mother's and no one else at the moment - that would allow him to give it to The Duchess of Kent but not to his nieces or cousin (Sarah Chatto - another I would have thought the late Queen might have so honoured given how close they were).

Of the list of 'Beatrice, Eugenie, Zara, Louise, and Princess Michael of Kent' we only know that two don't have the late Queen's - Beatrice and Princess Michael. Until there is a situation to see whether the others have it or not we can only assume as there is no announcement of anyone actually receiving it. They appear with it. Until the Jordanian wedding we didn't know one way or the other whether Beatrice had it. It was at that event we learnt that she didn't have it and then have assumed that the others don't have it. It is probably a safe assumption but still only an assumption.

 

[wartenberg7]

The argument could be that Charles is going to give his order to all those who had his mother's and no one else at the moment - that would allow him to give it to The Duchess of Kent but not to his nieces or cousin (Sarah Chatto - another I would have thought the late Queen might have so honoured given how close they were).

Of the list of 'Beatrice, Eugenie, Zara, Louise, and Princess Michael of Kent' we only know that two don't have the late Queen's - Beatrice and Princess Michael. Until there is a situation to see whether the others have it or not we can only assume as there is no announcement of anyone actually receiving it. They appear with it. Until the Jordanian wedding we didn't know one way or the other whether Beatrice had it. It was at that event we learnt that she didn't have it and then have assumed that the others don't have it. It is probably a safe assumption but still only an assumption.

Modern times policy, until the current reign so far, seems to be that only working female members of the RF the Family Order has been given - so, in that respect, the Dchss of Kent, who distanced herself, by the approval of the late Queen, from any kind of royal duties about 30 years ago, and who is much to old and frail these days, to return to public service again, would be no logic recipient of a newly created Royal Family Order of Charles III, if there would be a new one some day at all.
All the other royal ladies you named none of them are working members of the firm - so they are also highly unlikely to ever receive this order.
When it comes to Zara Tindall, Sarah Chatto or Lady Louise, I´m not sure but none of them are "royal" in the common sense (born to a monarch or a Prince of the Blood Royal or married to one). I guess, at least in the past, the Royal Family Order was only given to Princesses or Duchesses (besides female monarchs, of course).

 

[wartenberg7]

 

[Prinsara]

When it comes to Zara Tindall, Sarah Chatto or Lady Louise, I´m not sure but none of them are "royal" in the common sense (born to a monarch or a Prince of the Blood Royal or married to one). I guess, at least in the past, the Royal Family Order was only given to Princesses or Duchesses (besides female monarchs, of course).

Lady Louise is born to a Prince of the Blood Royal; just not styled as one.

 

[Elly C]

I know very little about these things but surely in this day and age being born to a Princess of the Blood Royal would be considered the same as born to a Prince of the same blood, given there has been change to the rule of Primogeniture.

 

[Somebody]

I know very little about these things but surely in this day and age being born to a Princess of the Blood Royal would be considered the same as born to a Prince of the same blood, given there has been change to the rule of Primogeniture.

The only change that was made related to the change in the line of succession was that all children of the then Duke of Cambridge were made royal highnesses and prince(ss) from birth per LP by queen Elizabeth II - as otherwise the situation could have arisen where the future heiress would not be a royal highness while her younger brother would have been (if the LP had not been issued George would still have been HRH Prince George of Cambridge, while Charlotte would have been Lady Charlotte Mountbatten-Windsor and Louis would have been Lord Louis Mountbatten-Windsor; this would have been especially problematic in the case George and Charlotte's birth orders had been reversed).

 

[wartenberg7]

Lady Louise is born to a Prince of the Blood Royal; just not styled as one.

What I meant was that she is styled a "Lady", not "Royal Highness" and "Princess", other than the York-Princesses who´s father is still a royal Duke while Edward chose, until recently, to be styled a Count which was highly uncommon as a son of a reigning monarch. At the same time he remained to be a Prince of the Blood Royal, which I found a bit odd and confusing...
It is not that long ago that "Counts" - and there were no royal Counts existing - were regarded as Commoners by Royalty. Not only by the british one. When in 1923 The Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon married the then Duke of York, she was virtually a commoner marrying into the royal family, which was pretty much unprecedented and very unusual! The same when it came to the then Lady Diana Spencer in 1981. Daughter of a member of the british aristocracy, but a commoner until she got married to the then P o Wales.

 

[wartenberg7]

The only change that was made related to the change in the line of succession was that all children of the then Duke of Cambridge were made royal highnesses and prince(ss) from birth per LP by queen Elizabeth II - as otherwise the situation could have arisen where the future heiress would not be a royal highness while her younger brother would have been (if the LP had not been issued George would still have been HRH Prince George of Cambridge, while Charlotte would have been Lady Charlotte Mountbatten-Windsor and Louis would have been Lord Louis Mountbatten-Windsor; this would have been especially problematic in the case George and Charlotte's birth orders had been reversed).

Why is that a change? As far as I know, all children of a grandson of the monarch were Royal Highnesses and Princes and Princesses, regardless of their sex! Example: The only daughter of George V, until his grandmother´s death Duke of York, was born Princess Mary of York. After her grandfather´s accession in 1901, she became known as Princess Mary of Wales (because her father, as the future King, became Prince of Wales). I don´t see any difference to nowaday´s situation when it comes to Pcss Charlotte!

 

[Somebody]

Why is that a change? As far as I know, all children of a grandson of the monarch were Royal Highnesses and Princes and Princesses, regardless of their sex! Example: The only daughter of George V, until his grandmother´s death Duke of York, was born Princess Mary of York. After her grandfather´s accession in 1901, she became known as Princess Mary of Wales (because her father, as the future King, became Prince of Wales). I don´t see any difference to nowaday´s situation when it comes to Pcss Charlotte!

I'm afraid you are mixing up different time periods. Charlotte was a great-grandchild of the monarch when she was born, not a grandchild. Since the LPs of 1917 that would have meant she would have been born as a lady not a princess and Louis as a lord not a prince (for example the children of the dukes of Gloucester and Kent as well as prince Michael's aren't princes and princesses either - prior to 1917 they would have been styled as hignesses (not royal highnesses!) and titled as prince(ss).

However, this discussion is no longer about the royal family order. Feel free to take it to the appropriate thread about titles.

 

[wartenberg7]

I'm afraid you are mixing up different time periods. Charlotte was a great-grandchild of the monarch when she was born, not a grandchild. Since the LPs of 1917 that would have meant she would have been born as a lady not a princess and Louis as a lord not a prince (for example the children of the dukes of Gloucester and Kent as well as prince Michael's aren't princes and princesses either - prior to 1917 they would have been styled as hignesses (not royal highnesses!) and titled as prince(ss).

However, this discussion is no longer about the royal family order. Feel free to take it to the appropriate thread about titles.

To close this indeed off topic subject on this thread, I still would like to reply that both Mary as well as Charlotte were great-granddaughters of still alive Queen Regnants (and only daughters of a monarch´s heir and grandson) when they were born and both were titled Pricesses of the Blood Royal and Royal Highnesses. Obviously these 1917 rules had no real relevance from Elizabeth IIs point of view...

 

[Iluvbertie]

To close this indeed off topic subject on this thread, I still would like to reply that both Mary as well as Charlotte were great-granddaughters of still alive Queen Regnants (and only daughters of a monarch´s heir and grandson) when they were born and both were titled Pricesses of the Blood Royal and Royal Highnesses. Obviously these 1917 rules had no real relevance from Elizabeth IIs point of view...

When Mary was born she was born as an HH not an HRH. Queen Victoria changed the Letters Patent to extend the right to HRH to the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales a year after Mary was born. Her older brothers were also born as HH and not as HRHs only gaining that styling in 1898. George V reduced those entitled to HRH with his LPs and Elizabeth II returned them to those of Queen Victoria.

That means that Mary was not born as a 'royal' highness.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

On the occassion of his 60:th birthday, His Royal Highness The Duke of Edinburgh has been appointed by His Majesty The King to be a Royal Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle.

He becomes the 5:th living royal member of the said Order, after The King, The Queen, The Duke of Rothesay (as The Prince of Wales is known in Scotland) and The Princess Royal.

The King has also filled the 3 available non-royal spaces to the same order.
The Baroness Black of Strome and The Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws has been appointed Ladies of the Thistle, and Sir Geoff Palmer has been appointed a Knight of the Thistle. That means all 16 spots of the non-royal Knights and Ladies of the Thistle are now filled.

 

[rominet09]

Happy to see this likeable Prince honoured.

 

[Mbruno]

On the occassion of his 60:th birthday, His Royal Highness The Duke of Edinburgh has been appointed by His Majesty The King to be a Royal Knight of the Most Ancient and Most Noble Order of the Thistle.

He becomes the 5:th living royal member of the said Order, after The King, The Queen, The Duke of Rothesay (as The Prince of Wales is known in Scotland) and The Princess Royal.

The King has also filled the 3 available non-royal spaces to the same order.
The Baroness Black of Strome and The Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws has been appointed Ladies of the Thistle, and Sir Geoff Palmer has been appointed a Knight of the Thistle. That means all 16 spots of the non-royal Knights and Ladies of the Thistle are now filled.

I was expecting former PM Gordon Brown to be appointed to the Order of the Thistle, but since all 16 non-royal spots are now filled, I suppose Mr Brown may be later appointed to the Order of the Garter instead like other former prime ministers.

 

[doro]

I was expecting former PM Gordon Brown to be appointed to the Order of the Thistle, but since all 16 non-royal spots are now filled, I suppose Mr Brown may be later appointed to the Order of the Garter instead like other former prime ministers.

I won't be surprised if King Charles appoints David Cameron, Theresa May or Boris Johnson as Knight/Lady of the Garter

 

[Hans-Rickard]

I was expecting former PM Gordon Brown to be appointed to the Order of the Thistle, but since all 16 non-royal spots are now filled, I suppose Mr Brown may be later appointed to the Order of the Garter instead like other former prime ministers.

I am also a bit surprised that Gordon Brown hasn’t been appointed to either the Garter of the Thistle so far… He has waited 14 years now… Only Tony Blair (15 years), Arthur Balfour (17 years) and Edward Heath (18 years) have waited longer i think….

But some more spaces is expected to become vacant in the Order of the Thistle over the following years as one Knight is 100 years old, another one is 97, and several are in their 80:s… So i wouldn’t rule out he will be appointed down the line…

The Order of the Garter have currently 6 vacant non-royal spaces. But it’s rare that more than 2 or 3 appointments are made at the same time.

 

[muriel]

I am also a bit surprised that Gordon Brown hasn’t been appointed to either the Garter of the Thistle so far… He has waited 14 years now… Only Tony Blair (15 years), Arthur Balfour (17 years) and Edward Heath (18 years) have waited longer i think….

But some more spaces is expected to become vacant in the Order of the Thistle over the following years as one Knight is 100 years old, another one is 97, and several are in their 80:s… So i wouldn’t rule out he will be appointed down the line…

The Order of the Garter have currently 6 vacant non-royal spaces. But it’s rare that more than 2 or 3 appointments are made at the same time.

I suspect Gordon Brown will get appointed to the Garter in the not too distant future. Blair was holding up the queue, and I suspect Brown will be the next former PM to be appointed.

 

[Stefan]

I suspect Gordon Brown will get appointed to the Garter in the not too distant future. Blair was holding up the queue, and I suspect Brown will be the next former PM to be appointed.

Would be a bitt odd if David Cameron or one of successors became a Knight before Gordon Brown. But not sure if the have always followed the order of when they had been in office with appointing them a Knight of either the Garter or Thistle.

 

[muriel]

Would be a bitt odd if David Cameron or one of successors became a Knight before Gordon Brown. But not sure if the have always followed the order of when they had been in office with appointing them a Knight of either the Garter or Thistle.

I can't see David Cameron, currently serving as Foreign Secretary, being appointed to the Garter before Brown. Alongside, perhaps, but I think this could be the 2025 in-take, after the General Election.

 

[Stefan]

I can't see David Cameron, currently serving as Foreign Secretary, being appointed to the Garter before Brown. Alongside, perhaps, but I think this could be the 2025 in-take, after the General Election.

Indeed i had forgotten that David Cameron is now foreign Secretary.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

They have often been appointed in the order of when they served but Harold Wilson and James Callaghan both became Knights of the Garter long before Edward Heath - strengthening the rumours that QEII actually disliked Edward Heath.

It will be interesting to see if Charles follows the pattern of appointing previous Prime Ministers and high ranking officials at the royal court like the Earl Marshal, The Lord Chamberlain and the Lord Steward… There has also often been at least one Admiral of the Fleet and a Field Marshal of the Army… Though there is not many 5-star military personel left now as they (apart from a few honorary appointments) stopped promoting former service chiefs to 5-star rank upon retirement in 1995…

 

[wbenson]

https://www.royal.uk/appointments

His Majesty The King has been graciously pleased to appoint His Royal Highness The Prince of Wales, K.G., K.T., A.D.C., to be Great Master of the Most Honourable Order of the Bath.

His Majesty The King has been graciously pleased to appoint Her Majesty The Queen to be Grand Master and First or Principal Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire.

His Majesty The King has been graciously pleased to appoint Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales, GCVO, to be Royal Companion of The Order of the Companions of Honour.

(Also four appointments to the Order of the Garter, in that order's thread.)

---------------

The first two of these were unfinished business from the recent deaths, but Catherine getting the CH was unexpected as no other member of the royal family has ever received it.