Beatrice and Edoardo: Wedding Suggestions and Musings Thread

[Moonmaiden23]

So how come we refer to the long defunct House of Hanover's members as "prince" and "princess"? Didn't Germany abolish those titles too? They even have their own thread here.

Ditto the Habsburgs of Austria and the French Orleans. ..why are those titles not as "fictional" as the comital Mapelli Mozzi?

If Alessandro Mapelli-Mozzi is comfortable calling himself, his son and their descendants Count and Donna Nobile, that is quite enough for me.

 

[Countessmeout]

Edo would be no different then the Italian and French dukes and German princes using their titles. Prince Ernst august of Hannover anyone??

The show undercover Prince/SS with people using questionable titles is another prime example.

All that matters is Edo doesn't use it. So it will not impact his wife or children. He was raised in England as was his father. He doesn't seem to feel any draw to using the title.

It may be different if it was a title like Count of X.

 

[Moonmaiden23]

I agree with you. I even used the House of Hanover as an example in my comment. I don't see any debate about the futility of using long defunct titles for other members of the nobility on this Forum.

Why isn't Ernst August IV called Mr. Hanover if the same rules apply?

 

[HighGoalHighDreams]

I won't derail this thread with conversations about titles other than that of Edo because (1) it is completely off topic and (2) I have no idea how those titles have any similarities or differences to Edo's situation because until this moment in time, I could not have told you those situations existed. I have no doubt there is an appropriate thread about titles of defunct houses where those who are educated about those situations are happy to engage in discussion.

Nothing in my above post was my opinion. It's literally not a point of debate whether or not Edo's title is a mere fiction or not. To quote the great philosopher Monty Python, it's rolled down the curtain and joined the choir invisible.

Now, there could surely be a debate about whether people should still use these titles. It wouldn't belong in this thread, though (except as it relates to Edo), and you would have a more productive conversation with someone who, prior to this moment, knew there was a person called Prince August of Hanover.

 

[kbk]

The noble titles are preserved in Germany as part of people's official names, for example the head of the Hanoverians is Mr Ernst August Prinz von Hannover. There are some sources claiming that in his British passport he is styled as HRH Ernest Augustus Guelph (??), which includes a bizarre recognition of his Royal Highness style and Anglicization of his family name with no recognition of his princely title, which is not bizarre at all as foreign titles are not recognised within the British realm in general.

official recognition is not given to the use of foreign titles by British citizens and care should be taken not to address any British citizen (whether by naturalisation or otherwise) by such a title

By Royal Warrant of 27 April 1932, the use in England and Wales of foreign titles of nobility was discontinued, and existing warrants licensing the use of such titles were revoked

In Italy, titles are not part of the legal system anymore and their use is a matter of courtesy. Legally, they are non-existent. Thus, Edoardo is a Mr, not a Count. But sure, you can style him however you want.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I won't derail this thread with conversations about titles other than that of Edo because (1) it is completely off topic and (2) I have no idea how those titles have any similarities or differences to Edo's situation because until this moment in time, I could not have told you those situations existed. I have no doubt there is an appropriate thread about titles of defunct houses where those who are educated about those situations are happy to engage in discussion.

Nothing in my above post was my opinion. It's literally not a point of debate whether or not Edo's title is a mere fiction or not. To quote the great philosopher Monty Python, it's rolled down the curtain and joined the choir invisible.

Now, there could surely be a debate about whether people should still use these titles. It wouldn't belong in this thread, though (except as it relates to Edo), and you would have a more productive conversation with someone who, prior to this moment, knew there was a person called Prince August of Hanover.

Prince Ernst, Princess Caroline of Monaco’s estranged husband, father of her youngest child. Fairly well known person-so using him in this context of title discussion is valid.
He is distantly in the line of succession for the British throne, his uncle married Prince Philip’s sister, and he is first cousins with Queen Sophia of Spain and King Constantine as his father’s sister was their mother.

 

[Alison H]

Some people use titles, some don't. I mentioned Jackie Kennedy's sister calling herself Princess Lee Radziwill, presumably because it sounded better than plain old Mrs. There's an ongoing fuss in Austria because legally you shouldn't even use "von" - so von Trapps were officially just the plain old Trapps. In practice, it's up to the person concerned - if Edo wanted to call himself count, I don't suppose anyone would mind, but it seems that he doesn't.

 

[Denville]

Some people use titles, some don't. I mentioned Jackie Kennedy's sister calling herself Princess Lee Radziwill, presumably because it sounded better than plain old Mrs. There's an ongoing fuss in Austria because legally you shouldn't even use "von" - so von Trapps were officially just the plain old Trapps. In practice, it's up to the person concerned - if Edo wanted to call himself count, I don't suppose anyone would mind, but it seems that he doesn't.

I can't see the point. If the titles are not now "legal", because the country is a republic, why use them? Families which were recently royal, I cut some slack, as sometimes they are involved in public life or hope for a restoration.. they continue something of the role they used to have as charity fund raisers etc. but after 70 years, I don't think that Italy is likely to become a monarchy again.. so why use the old titles?

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Note that even HRH Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark had to become a commoner with a fairytale name: Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten, R.N. while the Greek monarchy was alive and his titles legally valid in Greece.

 

[Lilyflo]

How about beaded lace edging on the wedding veil?

I'm not keen on the one in the video but it could be very pretty with hand embroidered motifs or a trim of very fine silk lace. I hope she chooses ivory or cream rather than white as the creamier tones would better suit her colouring.

 

[lashinka2002]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet but I would love to see Princess Beatrice given a duchy in her own right that would pass down to her children in the way that King Edward VII's first born daughter Princess Louise was given the title of Duchess of Fife by Queen Victoria to pass on through her descendants. Two thumbs up for gender equality here!!

 

[lashinka2002]

title

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet but I would love to see Princess Beatrice given a duchy in her own right that would pass down to her children in the way that King Edward VII's first born daughter Princess Louise was given the title of Duchess of Fife by Queen Victoria to pass on through her descendants. Two thumbs up for gender equality here!!

 

[kbk]

Note that even HRH Prince Philippos of Greece and Denmark had to become a commoner with a fairytale name: Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten, R.N. while the Greek monarchy was alive and his titles legally valid in Greece.

I don't believe they were valid any more as he renounced them and became a commoner there too. By his renunciation he left the Greek and Danish royal houses and ceased to be a dynast of the House of Glücksburg.

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet but I would love to see Princess Beatrice given a duchy in her own right that would pass down to her children in the way that King Edward VII's first born daughter Princess Louise was given the title of Duchess of Fife by Queen Victoria to pass on through her descendants. Two thumbs up for gender equality here!!

It was Louise's husband who was created the Duke of Fife, twice. The second creation came in an event of lack of male heirs as they had only two daughters (their firstborn son was stillborn). Thus, on Alexander Duff's death his (second) dukedom passed to his elder daughter, Alexandra. It was not, however, the case of a dukedom which can regularly pass through the female line, it included a special remainder to his daughters and their heirs male. Louise's great-granddaughter and her other future female descendants cannot inherit it.

 

[Denville]

I don't believe they were valid any more as he renounced them and became a commoner there too. By his renunciation he left the Greek and Danish royal houses and ceased to be a dynast of the House of Glücksburg.



It was Louise's husband who was created the Duke of Fife, twice. The second creation came in an event of lack of male heirs as they had only two daughters (their firstborn son was stillborn). Thus, on Alexander Duff's death his (second) dukedom passed to his elder daughter, Alexandra. It was not, however, the case of a dukedom which can regularly pass through the female line, it included a special remainder to his daughters and their heirs male. Louise's great-granddaughter and her other future female descendants cannot inherit it.

Yes it had nothing to do with gender equality. IMO the queen's not at all likely to give titles to daugthers… since the trend is to give less titles, not more...

 

[CyrilVladisla]

There is a way that the cathedral can come to the chapel. Winchester Cathedral Roses could be used to decorate the chapel and also be used in the wedding bouquet. They are white English roses.

 

[Lilyflo]

That's a fabulous old fashioned English rose, bred by David Austin (the best!). It smells divine too without being overpowering. A few years ago I started giving David Austin rose plants as Christmas & birthday gifts because it's an environmentally friendly thing to do & also because they are such wonderful roses. I think the Winchester Cathedral rose would be a great choice for any wedding.

 

[Somebody]

I don't believe they were valid any more as he renounced them and became a commoner there too. By his renunciation he left the Greek and Danish royal houses and ceased to be a dynast of the House of Glücksburg.

That seems to be exactly the point Duc_et_Pair was making ("He had to become a commoner" - meaning he was a Greek prince by birth but could not marry as prince). His titles WERE valid - right up until his renunciation. He was, however, asked/forced/summoned to renounce them (to be allowed) to marry HRH princess Elisabeth of York.

 

[Somebody]

It was Louise's husband who was created the Duke of Fife, twice. The second creation came in an event of lack of male heirs as they had only two daughters (their firstborn son was stillborn). Thus, on Alexander Duff's death his (second) dukedom passed to his elder daughter, Alexandra. It was not, however, the case of a dukedom which can regularly pass through the female line, it included a special remainder to his daughters and their heirs male. Louise's great-granddaughter and her other future female descendants cannot inherit it.

Indeed, so, for this to happen, the queen would need to create Andrew 'duke of York' a second time with a special remainder for his daughters. Not likely to happen.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Do you think Princess Beatrice and Edoardo will use the Marriage Service of Worship 1966 where they state their first name and all of their middle names? Or do you think that they will use the Marriage Service from Common Worship 2000?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Do you think Princess Beatrice and Edoardo will use the Marriage Service of Worship 1966 where they state their first name and all of their middle names? Or do you think that they will use the Marriage Service from Common Worship 2000?

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that the choice of service will ever be made public. But, curiously enough, two out of the three televised British royal weddings since 2000 have employed the now alternative 1960s service instead of the service which has been used for most weddings in the Church of England over the past two decades.

Neither service mandates or prohibits using all of their middle names.

Marriage | The Church of England

A Form of Solemnization of Matrimony (Alternative Services: Series One) | The Church of England

Yes it had nothing to do with gender equality. IMO the queen's not at all likely to give titles to daugthers… since the trend is to give less titles, not more...

I agree that the present queen is not at all likely to give peerages to daughters, but do not perceive a trend towards giving fewer titles: The earldom of Forfar was bestowed on the Earl of Wessex only last year, and there have been reports that Archie Mountbatten-Windsor will take on a princely title when his grandfather becomes king. The absence of peerages for daughters is almost certainly because within the British Royal Family peerages have exclusively been given to men with inheritance restricted to their heirs male, and Queen Elizabeth and the Prime Ministers who have counselled her prefer it that way.

 

[Alison H]

Beatrice and Eugenie wouldn't have been given titles anyway - Prince Michael wasn't given an extra title, nor was the now Duke of Gloucester when his elder brother was the heir. Princess Margaret got married before ideas of gender equality really got going, Princess Anne said that she didn't want her children to have titles so presumably she wouldn't have wanted a duchy for herself even if one had been offered, and, as Prince Charles hasn't got any daughters, the question hasn't really arisen in this generation. Maybe it'll be different when Charlotte grows up, but that's a long way off!

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Beatrice and Eugenie wouldn't have been given titles anyway - Prince Michael wasn't given an extra title, nor was the now Duke of Gloucester when his elder brother was the heir.

Yes, but had she been born male, she would have inherited the Dukedom of York in due course as the now Duke of Gloucester inherited from his father. As it would require parliamentary action to alter the remainder to the dukedom at this stage, the earlier poster was putting forward their suggestion as an alternative method to bring her future title in line with that of the current Duke of Gloucester.

 

[Denville]

Unfortunately, it seems unlikely that the choice of service will ever be made public. But, curiously enough, two out of the three televised British royal weddings since 2000 have employed the now alternative 1960s service instead of the service which has been used for most weddings in the Church of England over the past two decades.

Neither service mandates or prohibits using all of their middle names.

Marriage | The Church of England

A Form of Solemnization of Matrimony (Alternative Services: Series One) | The Church of England




I agree that the present queen is not at all likely to give peerages to daughters, but do not perceive a trend towards giving fewer titles: The earldom of Forfar was bestowed on the Earl of Wessex only last year, and there have been reports that Archie Mountbatten-Windsor will take on a princely title when his grandfather becomes king. The absence of peerages for daughters is almost certainly because within the British Royal Family peerages have exclusively been given to men with inheritance restricted to their heirs male, and Queen Elizabeth and the Prime Ministers who have counselled her prefer it that way.

Archie will automatically becomea Prince when his grandfather becomes king.. (Unless his parents and Charles decide to just leave him with the courtesty title)… Edward was only made an earl on his marriage, possibly because in due couse he is going to become Duke of Ed..Im not sure why there was another earldom given.. but I see a trend towards fewer titles, and less HRHs

 

[Tatiana Maria]

As this relates to British styles and titles in general, I have explained here why I do not see a trend towards fewer titles in the British royal family:

Questions about British Styles and Titles

 

[Denville]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet but I would love to see Princess Beatrice given a duchy in her own right that would pass down to her children in the way that King Edward VII's first born daughter Princess Louise was given the title of Duchess of Fife by Queen Victoria to pass on through her descendants. Two thumbs up for gender equality here!!

Even if it were likely to happen, I don't see Beatrice wanting such a title. What would be the point? I think she and Eugeine prefer to be known informally....

 

[Somebody]

I won't derail this thread with conversations about titles other than that of Edo because (1) it is completely off topic and (2) I have no idea how those titles have any similarities or differences to Edo's situation because until this moment in time, I could not have told you those situations existed. I have no doubt there is an appropriate thread about titles of defunct houses where those who are educated about those situations are happy to engage in discussion.

Nothing in my above post was my opinion. It's literally not a point of debate whether or not Edo's title is a mere fiction or not. To quote the great philosopher Monty Python, it's rolled down the curtain and joined the choir invisible.

Now, there could surely be a debate about whether people should still use these titles. It wouldn't belong in this thread, though (except as it relates to Edo), and you would have a more productive conversation with someone who, prior to this moment, knew there was a person called Prince August of Hanover.

Nonetheless, the queen certainly acknowledges such 'defunct' titles. At her latest large royal gathering she placed the former kings next to her and in doing so gave them more prominence/precedence than the reigning kings and queens.

And I am sure, that if she was to receive prince Ernst August's wife, i.e., the prince of Monaco's sister(!), Caroline would be referred to by the court as HRH The Princess of Hannover just like the Monegasque court does.

And as Beatrice attended Ernst August's sons weddings, I expect them to receive an invitation for this upcoming wedding as well - addressed to TRH prince (and princess) Ernst August of Hanover and TRH prince (and princess) Christian of Hanover; not to mr and mrs Ernst August/Christian of Hanover.

It seems, they only do not use foreign titles (defunct or not) for British citizens; for foreigners different rules apply.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

But the Hanovers are British citizens, aren't they? Moreover, defunct Italian titles were used for the parents-in-law of Lord Nicholas Windsor in the engagement announcement, and their location is given as "of London". It seems the queen is willing to use defunct titles even for British citizens.

 

[Somebody]

But the Hanovers are British citizens, aren't they? Moreover, defunct Italian titles were used for the parents-in-law of Lord Nicholas Windsor in the engagement announcement, and their location is given as "of London". It seems the queen is willing to use defunct titles even for British citizens.

Interesting, so, she is even willing to use it for British citizens (if those citizens also hold another citizenship?) if they use those titles themselves.

In Edo's case, it seems he doesn't use it, so it would be weird for the BRF to start using it.

 

[victor1319]

Even if it were likely to happen, I don't see Beatrice wanting such a title. What would be the point?

Think about the kids, she will hopefully have: It is good to be king... and at least cool to be a countess or count!

It opens a lot of doors for a lot of career and job opportunities... at least in Europeland.

In America this is a different story. The countess Vera of Lehndorff-Steinort made at the hight of the the cold war a career there as the photomodel "Veruschka" - it had this sinister-exotic east european sound... But for the most folks over here in Europe a noble title is still a noble title - in a good way.

 

[Denville]

Think about the kids, she will hopefully have: It is good to be king... and at least cool to be a countess or count!

It opens a lot of doors for a lot of career and job opportunities... at least in Europeland.

In America this is a different story. The countess Vera of Lehndorff-Steinort made at the hight of the the cold war a career there as the photomodel "Veruschka" - it had this sinister-exotic east european sound... But for the most folks over here in Europe a noble title is still a noble title - in a good way.

Beatrice is a princess, she hardly needs any further titles and she will always get jobs because of who she is.. and a Royal Dukedom is rather different to a countess. Anne was happy for her children to have no titles, to be plain mr and Miss Phillips.. Edward was happy for his children to forgo the HRH..and just be Viscount and Lady Louise. She has no need of any further title.