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  #4761  
Old 02-04-2020, 08:17 PM
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He might be 'earl of Wessex' by the time he is looking for a 'professional name' - although I am still not sure how that will work out; as the duke of Edinburgh title has not been awarded at the same time as the earl of Wessex and viscount Severn titles, so not sure whether they can become subsidiary titles to the duke of Edinburgh title when it is awarded to Edward. Or that the ducal title won't have subsidiary titles, so Edward will simultaneously hold the ducal and earl titles; while the heir of these titles (or more specifically: of the Earl of Wessex title) will always be known as Viscount Severn.
Yes, they can be used as subsidiary titles without being awarded at the same time. It is quite ordinary for British peers to hold titles awarded at different times as their families were elevated through the ranks (for instance, a commoner being ennobled as a baron, and his great-grandson succeeding as the fourth baron before being elevated to a viscount). The situation may also arise when a special remainder exists and different titles are inherited through the maternal and paternal lines. One example is the Earl Mountbatten, whose much older title Lord Brabourne is used by the heir to the earldom.

James would be expected to be known as Earl of Wessex as a courtesy title when his father becomes Duke of Edinburgh, but he could choose something else if he wishes.
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  #4762  
Old 02-04-2020, 08:17 PM
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He might be 'earl of Wessex' by the time he is looking for a 'professional name' - although I am still not sure how that will work out; as the duke of Edinburgh title has not been awarded at the same time as the earl of Wessex and viscount Severn titles, so not sure whether they can become subsidiary titles to the duke of Edinburgh title when it is awarded to Edward. Or that the ducal title won't have subsidiary titles, so Edward will simultaneously hold the ducal and earl titles; while the heir of these titles (or more specifically: of the Earl of Wessex title) will always be known as Viscount Severn.
Once Edward becomes The Duke of edinburgh, the Earl of Wessex title will be a lower rank, so why couldn’t James use it as a courtesy title?
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  #4763  
Old 02-04-2020, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Once Edward becomes The Duke of edinburgh, the Earl of Wessex title will be a lower rank, so why couldn’t James use it as a courtesy title?
That would be the normal progression: the heir "borrows" his parent's next highest title by courtesy. James could use both Earl of Wessex and Earl of Forfar (but not "The Earl of Wessex" as that would still be Edward), and HIS son, if he has one, would be Viscount Severn, again, without the "the."


You can see this in action in the junior branches of the royal family. The Duke of Gloucester's heir is known as Earl of Ulster and his son Baron Culloden and The Duke of Kent's heir is Earl of St. Andrews and his son is Baron Downpatrick.
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  #4764  
Old 03-02-2020, 04:35 PM
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Will Alexander, Earl of Ulster inherit the title of Duke of Gloucester from his father, Prince Richard?
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  #4765  
Old 03-02-2020, 04:49 PM
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Lord Ulster is the heir apparent to the dukedom of Gloucester and his son ,Lord Culloden next inline.
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  #4766  
Old 03-02-2020, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
Once Edward becomes The Duke of edinburgh, the Earl of Wessex title will be a lower rank, so why couldn’t James use it as a courtesy title?
My reasoning would be that Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn are not subsidiary titles to the duke of Edinburgh title. So, if the rule is that 'subsidiary titles' can be used, it would not apply; if it is just 'lower rank' it would indeed be no problem at all for James to use Edward's other title.
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  #4767  
Old 03-02-2020, 06:33 PM
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My reasoning would be that Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn are not subsidiary titles to the duke of Edinburgh title. So, if the rule is that 'subsidiary titles' can be used, it would not apply; if it is just 'lower rank' it would indeed be no problem at all for James to use Edward's other title.
Many heirs to peerages use courtesy titles that weren't originally subsidiary titles to the highest of their titles. The Duke of Fife was known as the Earl of Southesk before acceding to the dukedom. The two titles don't even originate from the same family but was brought together by the marriage of his grandparents. Another example is the Duke of Norfolk who's heir uses the title of Earl of Arundel - a title that is 200 years older than the dukedom itself and again didn't even originate with the Howard family.
To my knowledge the heir can choose any title available as his courtesy title and its not that uncommon for them to change between generations.
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  #4768  
Old 03-02-2020, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Many heirs to peerages use courtesy titles that weren't originally subsidiary titles to the highest of their titles. The Duke of Fife was known as the Earl of Southesk before acceding to the dukedom. The two titles don't even originate from the same family but was brought together by the marriage of his grandparents. Another example is the Duke of Norfolk who's heir uses the title of Earl of Arundel - a title that is 200 years older than the dukedom itself and again didn't even originate with the Howard family.
To my knowledge the heir can choose any title available as his courtesy title and its not that uncommon for them to change between generations.
Thanks! Good to know. That was my main doubt but if it's common practice among the British peers, I would indeed assume that James will be known as the Earl of Wessex once his father is granted the dukedom of Edinburgh.
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  #4769  
Old 03-02-2020, 07:20 PM
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My reasoning would be that Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn are not subsidiary titles to the duke of Edinburgh title. So, if the rule is that 'subsidiary titles' can be used, it would not apply; if it is just 'lower rank' it would indeed be no problem at all for James to use Edward's other title.
I am not sure what you mean by 'subsidiary title' if not one of lower rank, but how would it be different from the Brabourne case (as I mentioned in post #4764)?
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  #4770  
Old 03-02-2020, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I am not sure what you mean by 'subsidiary title' if not one of lower rank, but how would it be different from the Brabourne case (as I mentioned in post #4764)?
Had missed your post explaining the same as JR76; i.e. that it doesn't matter when the 'lower' title was awarded.

I took subsidiary to be a lower titled tied to a more senior title. The royal typically are given three titles, in which cases one 'creation' includes all three titles, so the lower titles are tied to the senior titles. But apparently that is not a requirement and all 'lower' titles can be considered subsidiary titles to that specific holder (in case they have different hereditary rules that would mean that it could be a temporary constellation of titles; resulting in a title that at one point was a subsidiary title becoming a senior title again - although the other way around is more common).
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  #4771  
Old 03-08-2020, 08:21 AM
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Can someone clarify something for me, quiz question of sorts. If Prince Andrew were to remarry, we'd have a new The Duchess of York, what happens to Sarah's style? Is she still allowed to be Sarah, Duchess of York? I'm aware she loses the style completely if she remarries.
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  #4772  
Old 03-08-2020, 08:25 AM
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She could still use 'Sarah, Duchess of York'.

The 'new wife' will be 'HRH the Duchess of York'
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  #4773  
Old 03-08-2020, 08:44 AM
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Originally Posted by wyevale View Post
She could still use 'Sarah, Duchess of York'.

The 'new wife' will be 'HRH the Duchess of York'
You are completely right. At the same time, given the decision that the second wife of the Prince of Wales, although she was entitled to use "HRH The Princess of Wales", would instead use "HRH The Duchess of Cornwall", it would not surprise me if, in the event of the Duke of York remarrying, it was decided that his second wife would be known as "HRH The Countess of Inverness" for similar reasons.
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  #4774  
Old 03-08-2020, 08:53 AM
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You are completely right. At the same time, given the decision that the second wife of the Prince of Wales, although she was entitled to use "HRH The Princess of Wales", would instead use "HRH The Duchess of Cornwall", it would not surprise me if, in the event of the Duke of York remarrying, it was decided that his second wife would be known as "HRH The Countess of Inverness" for similar reasons.
What similar reasons? If I were the 2nd wife of the Duke of York, there's no way I'd accept the lesser title. I would insist upon "HRH The Duchess of York".
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  #4775  
Old 03-08-2020, 09:01 AM
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What similar reasons? If I were the 2nd wife of the Duke of York, there's no way I'd accept the lesser title. I would insist upon "HRH The Duchess of York".
To clarify, no reason for the decision in regard to the Duchess of Cornwall was stated officially (to the best of my knowledge). But it has been speculated that "Princess of Wales" was too closely associated in the public mind with the first wife of the Prince of Wales, and "Duchess of York" likewise remains closely associated with the first wife of the Duke of York.
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  #4776  
Old 03-08-2020, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
To clarify, no reason for the decision in regard to the Duchess of Cornwall was stated officially (to the best of my knowledge). But it has been speculated that "Princess of Wales" was too closely associated in the public mind with the first wife of the Prince of Wales, and "Duchess of York" likewise remains closely associated with the first wife of the Duke of York.
The Princess of Wales was much loved by the public, had been very unhappily married & cited Camilla as one of the reasons. She then died & became a bit sanctified. Camilla couldn't have taken the title without inviting a deluge of scorn & bad press.

Sarah Ferguson is not popular & has been divorced for years so any new wife wouldn't face the public's disapproval for taking her rightful title.
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  #4777  
Old 03-10-2020, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Archie will automatically becomea Prince when his grandfather becomes king.. (Unless his parents and Charles decide to just leave him with the courtesty title)…
[...] I see a trend towards fewer titles, and less HRHs
As you say, the Letters Patent issued by King George V can be (and on several occasions already have been) overruled by his successors, and it will fall to King Charles to decide whether to follow them with regard to Archie. But the suggestion from at least one palace source is that he will, and the number of HRHs will thus be increased.

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Edward was only made an earl on his marriage, possibly because in due couse he is going to become Duke of Ed..Im not sure why there was another earldom given.. but I see a trend towards fewer titles, and less HRHs
Per reports, Prince Edward simply had a personal preference for the sound of "Earl of Wessex", which he heard from a then recent film, over the sound of "Duke of Cambridge". As he was still granted two peerages (and a third in 2019), there was no reduction in the number of royal peers.
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  #4778  
Old 03-10-2020, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
Can someone clarify something for me, quiz question of sorts. If Prince Andrew were to remarry, we'd have a new The Duchess of York, what happens to Sarah's style? Is she still allowed to be Sarah, Duchess of York? I'm aware she loses the style completely if she remarries.
Any events in Andrew's life can't change Sarah's style/name.
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  #4779  
Old 03-10-2020, 08:49 AM
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We dont know, about Archie. he would normally automatically become an HRH when C becomes King.. but maybe he and the Sussexes will prefer that not to happen. After all they don't use the normal courtesy title for Archie that he is entitled to. I think that Charles may well prefer HRH to be more restricted as it is in European coutntries… IT has been suggested that the York girls are in a bit of a pickle with their being called Princess and HRH, when they themselves are leading relatively normal lives..
I find ti hard to believe that Edward really wanted to be an Earl when the normal thing for a prince getting married was to be made a Duke.. and if the queen wanted him to become D of Edinburgh, she didn't want him to have 2 dukedoms. Its been rumoured that the Earldom of Forfar was bestowed because Ed is not yet D of Edinburgh and she wanted to reward him for hard work.
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  #4780  
Old 03-10-2020, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
The Princess of Wales was much loved by the public, had been very unhappily married & cited Camilla as one of the reasons. She then died & became a bit sanctified. Camilla couldn't have taken the title without inviting a deluge of scorn & bad press.

Sarah Ferguson is not popular & has been divorced for years so any new wife wouldn't face the public's disapproval for taking her rightful title.
Precisely. I think it was wise of Cam to adopt the Duchess of C titlte, but no one would care if Andrew had a new wife who was Duchess of York, which would be her proper title. Sarah has never really been popular and since she left the RF, she is pretty much a laughing stock.
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