Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna: Current Claimant to the Throne 1: 2003 - Oct 2006

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Warren

Not forgetting one of Grand Duchess Kira's daughters, Princess Marie Cecile, who married HH Duke Friedrich August of Oldenburg.

Correct, although there is some debate as to whether the line would pass through the next eligible male child of Kira, rather than the next eldest eligible child, who is Princess Marie. If valid, then the current Russian pretender would be Princess Marie's eldest son, HH Duke Paul Vladimir of Oldenburg.

[RussianHistoryBuff]

As I do not believe that someone who is royal by marriage should rule when a monarchy that has fallen I shall only give the names of claiments with true Romanov blood. By the way Georgi Mikhailovich Romanov is like Alexander III. By saying this I mean that he is in my opinion (pardon if I offend you) a person who is not extraodinarily bright. Not to mention that if he chooses conservatism like Alexander III, then a Russia with a monarchy would fail miserably. Despite what most people say, Russia has many natural resources that could make it great once again. Once again, in my opinion there are two typews of government that work for a large country and those types of governments would be either a Monarchy with Parliment or a Socialist country that doesn't take advantage of its people. After all, the only reason socialism has a bad name is because of corrupt leaders. The other blood Romanovs are listed below. And no I didn't type any twice. Also, they all have the last name Romanov or, in the Russian formal Romanovich or Romanovna.

Descended From Nicholas I Czar and Emperor of All Russias

Dmitri Pavlovich
Mikhail Pavolivich
Dmitri Romanovich
Nikolai Romanovich
Mikhail Androvich
Andrei Androvich
Peter Androvich
Andrei Androvich
Mikhail Fedorovich
Mikhail Mikhailovich
Nikita Nikitich
Fedor Nikitich
Rostislov Rostaslovich
Nikita Rostaslavich
Nikolai Rostislovich
Nicholas Christopher
Danie Joseph
Cory Christopher

Descended From Alexander II Czar and Emperor of All Russias

Georgi Mikhailovich
Marie Vladmirovna who married-Franz Wilhelm of Pussia
Leonida Goergievna
Angelica Philippa Kauffmann
Paul R. Ilyinsky 1928-2006


The other realatives listed above are usually not spoken of often, but through extensive research one can find their names. Obviously not Georgi or his mother.

[branchg]

They are all Romanovs and descendants of imperial dynasts, but ineligible under the Pauline Laws to succeed to the throne. If Russia ever restored the monarchy (which is highly unlikely), they could choose anyone to be the next Sovereign.

[victoria_89]

does anyone have a current photo of Maria's son ?

[branchg]

Well, in reality, there would be tremendous political difficulties for Maria in the event of an imperial restoration, not least the matter of her German son and Georgian mother, two things the Russian nationalists would never accept. Her ties to the Patriach would also be viewed very suspiciously in light of historic hostilities towards the Church.

Prince Michael of Kent would probably be more favorably viewed as Tsar by all parties, although Marie-Christine's background would not as Tsarina Consort.

[pookiepie]

"But, IMO, instead of fighting amongst themselves, Maria and other claimants should be trying to fight for the favor of their people.
The corruption and control in Russia is bad enough as it is and it's getting worse, if the Imperial Family cared enough about their country to want to be titled as it's representatives, then they should feel just as strongly about the welfare of their people.
They should be fighting to return to their country and work to gain the trust and support of their people (even if it doesn't seem possible at this time), by fighting to be elected into political office or at least join lobbyist groups to be able to make a difference for their people, then they would have something more important than the unearned titles they have now.
They would have the love and respect of their people for making a genuine and positive difference in their lives and wouldn't have to fight for empty titular recognition, but be granted their titles out of their people's respect and pride."

I agree that the fighting is useless, mostly because I don’t believe the monarchy will ever be reinstated. I noticed, though, that you mention the phrase “their people” quite a bit. I think this is inaccurate because the people of Russia today aren’t their people. I haven’t studied the present day romanovs in depth at all so sorry if I make a mistake but from what I understand, the present day romanovs have been living abroad in a bunch of places (and were born abroad as well). They weren’t raised in Russia so they are only Russian by ethnicity, not nationality. Take the guy Georgi who lives in Spain. He, like his mother, was born there making him second generation Spanish, not Russian. Of course he’s of Russian descent (like me) but I don’t believe that people like us (descendents) can call people living in today’s Russia “our people.” My people are Americans and his people are Spaniards. Or, you could say “our people” are those Russians who left before or during the revolution, those who haven’t been tainted by the Soviet ways. The people in modern Russia are the product of the soviet union and these Romanovs who are being born and raised abroad are obviously not. Does this make sense?

[pookiepie]

Originally Posted by Alice Vilghelmina

yes, they visited "motherland", tried to draw attention and to make people respect them, but....One visit about 6=7 years ago is nothing, cause Russians respect their own last royalties but royal descendants......many of them don't speak Russian and have a quarter of Russian blood in good case. They are interested in Russia only for the sake of a political benefit. no more.

well, the last Romanovs had almost no Russian blood seeing as to how each Romanov man married a foreigner. It seems like the German girls were most popular.

[pookiepie]

http://members.surfeu.fi/thaapanen/Articles/st01.html

The late Prince Vladimir Kirillovich of Russia had a significant claim to be head of the Imperial House. The main argument against him was that his fathers mother the Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna was not a member of the Russian Orthodox Church at the time of the Grand Duke Kirill's birth. Apart from various other conditions the heir to the throne of Russia must be the issue of Russian Orthodox parents. Furthermore, criticism has been often levelled whether justly or not at the Grand Duke Kirill with regard to his breaking the oath of allegiance to the Emperor Nicholas II in 1917 and his assumption of the imperial title in 1924 which was against the express wishes of the Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna. Nonetheless genealogically speaking with the death of the Grand Duke Kirill his son Prince Vladimir Kirillovich was the senior male and as such head of the family. Since his death, however, his daughter's assertion that she is now head of the family is false and wholly unjustifiable. Neither she nor Prince Vladimir Kirillovich were entitled to the self appointed rank of Grand Duke nor is Prince Vladimir's widow.
The rules of succession to the throne and headship of the family were laid down and promulgated by the Emperor Paul I on the 6 April, 1796 (17 April, 1796). Succession was strictly by primogeniture, eldest male following eldest male and only in the event of the total extinction of the male line was a female permitted to succeed. This law known as the Pauline Law was reinforced by the Imperial Ukase issued by the Emperor Alexander III on 2 July, 1886 (14 July, 1886). This Ukase went on further to regulate the criteria pertaining to the rank of Grand Duke or Grand Duchess and the qualification of Imperial Highness. In order to avoid the Austrian example where all members of the Imperial House were designated Archdukes, in Russia only sons and daughters or grandsons and granddaughters (in the male line) of a reigning Emperor were permitted to the rank of Grand Duke or Grand Duchess and the qualification of Imperial Highness. Great grandchildren of a reigning Emperor, in the male line only, were Princes of Russia with the qualification of Highness. All other descendants of a reigning Emperor, in the male line only, were Princes with the qualification of Serene Highness. However, the eldest son of a great grandchild was permitted the qualification of Highness.
Under Clause 188 of the rules of the Imperial House of Russia pertaining to marriage; only marriages of equal rank were permitted. This rule was taken from the German ruling houses (ebenbuertig, standegemaess). Any member of the Imperial Family contracting a marriage with an individual no matter how noble but not of equal rank (i.e. not from one of the recognised sovereign or royal families) forfitted the right to remain part of the Imperial Family and any descendants or issue of such legal marriages enjoyed no rights to membership of the Imperial Family and no rights to the succession.
Given the increasing difficulty of enforcing this clause in an ever growing family, under the Emperor Nicholas II an Imperial Ukase no. 1489 dated 11 August, 1911 (24 August, 1911) was issued which modified clause 188 but only for Princes and Princesses of the Imperial House namely great grandchildren and onwards of a reigning Emperor. This modification allowed Princes and Princesses of the Imperial House to contract marriages with individuals of "good standing" but not necessarily of equal birth. The rule pertaining to Grand Dukes and Grand Duchesses and their obligation to contract marriages with individuals of equal birth remained in force. This Ukase of 1911 was inacted in time for the Princess Tatiana Constantinovna of Russia to marry Constantine Alexandrovich Prince Bagration-Mukhransky who was not of equal rank.
Following the murder of Emperor Nicholas II, his son (Czarevich Alexis) and his brother (Grand Duke Michael Alexandrovich), the next in line was his first cousin the Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich. I have already shown above that there was some question about his elegibility. Furthermore, this was compounded by his marriage to a divorced first cousin (Princess Victoria Melita) again something not permitted by the Russian Orthodox Church. On his death in 1938 he was succeeded by his son Prince Vladimir Kirillovich who as a great grandson of a reigning Emperor was not entitled to the rank of Grand Duke. His assumption of that rank was not recognised by most members of the Imperial house and led to an increasing schism in the family.
In 1948 Prince Vladimir Kirillovich contracted a marriage with Leonida Kirby, divorced wife and widow of Sumner Moore Kirby. She was born Leonida Georgievna Princess Bagration-Mukhransky. It was claimed by Prince Vladimir Kirillovich that his wife was of equal rank as a descendent of the early Kings of Georgia. However, this claim is obviously incorrect and inconsistent. This is proven by the marriage of Princess Tatiana Constantinovna of Russia to Prince Constantine Bagration-Mukhransky a cousin of Princess Leonida in 1911. If in 1911 the Bagration-Mukhransky family was not considered of equal rank why should have been such in 1948? Their claim to headship of the Royal House of Georgia which had anyway passed to the Emperor of Russia is based on the possible but not certain extinction of the House of Grouzinsky in 1931. Furthermore, the House of Grouszinsky itself was not recognized in Imperial Russia as being of equal rank to the Imperial Family. Therefore, Prince Vladimir Kirillovich's claim for his wife's equal rank is incorrect and rather more wishful thinking than fact. Indeed, if the Bagration-Mukhansky's claim to equal rank as descendants of the early Kings of Georgia is given credence this would also pertain to various wives of the later Princes of Russia such as the Galitzines who themselves are of royal descent. It must be obvious from the above that this is not the case.
Accordingly, Prince Vladimir Kirillovich's further claim that his daughter is his heir is not viable. Prince Vladimir Kirillovich being a great grandson of a ruling Emperor contracted a marriage with an individual of a good standing and his daughter Princess Maria Vladimirovna is accordingly a Princess of Russia but follows in the line of succession after all the Princes of the blood. Prince Vladimir Kirillovich's appointment of his son in law Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia as a Russian Grand Duke verges on the farcical and it is interesting to note that since Prince Franz Wilhelm and Princess Maria Vladimirovna's divorce, Prince Franz Wilhelm has reverted to his correct rank of Prince of Prussia. Their son Prince George of Prussia is a member of the Imperial House of Hohenzollern and certainly not a member of the Imperial House of Romanov.
In accordance with the laws of succession to the Imperial House of Russia the undisputed head of the family is His Highness Prince Nicholas Romanovich, son of the late Prince Roman Petrovich and Grandson of the Grand Duke Peter Nikolaievich. He is also chairman of the Romanov Family Association to whom all members of the Imperial Family of Russia, with the exception of Princess Maria Vladimirovna, belong.

this is actaully a pretty cool site. they show all the male decendents from the 4 sons.

[Margrethe II]

Not her son, but...

Her Imperial Highness the Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna, Head of the Imperial Family of Russia, Titular Empress and Autocrat of all the Russias...

Credit: Landov



Taken sometime in February of 2006.

"MII"

[Jo of Palatine]

What an interesting thread, especially for a trained lawyer. Thank you for posting all this information.

I read it all carefully and followed the link to the statement of the former lawyer of Grand Duke Vladimir.

As I understood it, Grand Duke Vladimir was undisputed head of the family, as the marriage of his father and the birth of his older sisters had been acknowledged as dynast by the late Tsar Nicholas II, thus it stands to reason that if Vladimir had been born a year before when there still had been a court calendar with an official list of succession he would have been in it as his sisters were.

Not only in my opinion it is the privilege of the head of a Royal family to declare someone to be "ebenbuertig". It happened eg in Bavaria where the marriage of prince Luitpold ("Poldi") and common born princess Ursula was declared "ebenbuertig" (dynastic) after more then 20 years! Only because it had turned out that prince Poldi was to be next in line and they wanted his kids to become part of the succession. Or just see how souverain Dr. Otto von Habsburg-Lothringen manages his family and the claim of common-born daughters-in-law when it pleases him.

So for me there is no doubt about the right of Grand Duke Vladimir to declare his marriage dynast, to style his wife Grand Duchess and to amke his daughter into his heiress. There probably was no need in his understanding to decree it more formally than he did. After all, nobody decrees that "red is red" and "green is green" when this is obvious. It stands to reason as well that the head of the family was not a subject of the rules of his house but the source of it. See the old rule of succession of Sweden where the king was the only member of the Royal house who could marry without his own consent <grin>. Or Tsar peter the Great who made the former maid and commoner Katherina into his spouse and his heiress to boot. Their daughter Elisabeth of course was dynast!

Now you can say that Tsar Paul's law was later - but then it obviously was the privilege of the head of the Family (who then was the souverain ruler as well) to give rules at all - to change Tsar Peter I. habit. Thus of course Grand Duke Vladimir could do as he pleased.

As for the missing acception of other Royal houses. There is a political question involved and acceptance of Grand Duchess Maria could well mean political problems with the Russia of today. And to what avail? Politics are pragmatic....

[RussianHistoryBuff]

Her son is older than 16. He is now the HEAD of the House of Romanov.

[biloxibear39530]

Originally Posted by pookiepie

http://members.surfeu.fi/thaapanen/Articles/st01.html
this is actaully a pretty cool site. they show all the male decendents from the 4 sons.

The Bagrationi Line is far from extinct the principal house, as well as the cadet branches, all have numerous members living both in Georgia and abroad. From the last kings in Tbilisi and Kutaisi, Princess Varvara Bagrationi carried the name and passed the helm to her daughter, HSRH Princess Ekarolinna Ariana who upon her death in 2002 passed it along to her grandson, HSRH Prince Tajyjohn (b. 1963). The title will then pass to his son, Michael (b. 1979).
Since the illegal annexation of "Georgia" by the Russians, the Royal Families of Georgia have deemed the treaties whereby the Russian Crown will convert Georgia Titles into (lesser) Russian ones as null and void. Under the succession laws set down in the time of King David the Builder, Princess Varvara and her daughter are the legitimate claimants to the thrones of Imeretia and Kartlo-Khaketia. Under these same laws, Prince Tajyjohn is the legitimate claimant to both thrones. Also, should the Mingrelian and/or Svaneti Houses expire, he would also be the legitimate claimant to those thrones.

[branchg]

The problem remains the same. If Vladimir declared his marriage to be of equal rank under the Pauline Law (which it could not with his marriage to a subject of Russia), then his cousins' marriages to Russian noblewomen of princely rank were also equal. You cannot make one rule for your wife, but deny the rights conferred by your edict to other imperial dynasts.

Even if we accept that Maria is the rightful Head of the House as a matter of form, the controversy would remain within the family. In any case, most of the royal houses agree she is not of imperial rank, but morganatic.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by RussianHistoryBuff

Her son is older than 16. He is now the HEAD of the House of Romanov.

He is not the Head of the House. If we accept Maria as the rightful Head (which most European royals do not), then George will succeed after her death.

[Margrethe II]

Originally Posted by branchg

He is not the Head of the House. If we accept Maria as the rightful Head (which most European royals do not), then George will succeed after her death.

Thank you branchg,

I was about to post a response along the same lines.

"MII"

[betina]

How about decendants after Alexander 3. Why do they not have succestion right. I would say that granduchess Xenias decendents have a fair right to inherit the throne of russia.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by betina

How about decendants after Alexander 3. Why do they not have succestion right. I would say that granduchess Xenias decendents have a fair right to inherit the throne of russia.

Under the Pauline Law, none of the current Romanovs are eligible to succeed because of unequal marriages. The grandchildren of Vladimir's sister, Grand Duchess Kira, who married Prince Louis-Ferdinand of Prussia, arguably became the rightful heirs (HH Duke Paul Vladimir of Oldenburg or HI & RH Prince Georg-Friedrich von Hohenzollern) after Vladimir's death.

[lord_rankin]

I cannot find a photo of Marias son anywhere. Anybody have a current photo of him? or know where I could get it?

[Warren]

Originally Posted by lord_rankin

I cannot find a photo of Marias son anywhere. Anybody have a current photo of him? or know where I could get it?

courtesy Corbis. No other details.

Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna & Grand Duke Georgi

[bbb]

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2....1342&PageNum=0

the court has turned down her petition