Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna: Current Claimant to the Throne 1: 2003 - Oct 2006

[Toledo]

Thanks Matryoska.
This is what I was refering about when Warren hinted I was getting off topic again and mentioned

...and therefore has no relevance to Russian Princely Houses.

Warren, the Almanach Gotha does have relevance on Maria's situation as well as the other Russian princely Houses. It's the Robert Rules of Order of all things crowned. My mistake on not staying here longer (I tend to jump thread to thread to catch up reading) to elaborate on why I posted the above on Almanach Gotha in relation to the situation of Grand Duchess Maria's Vladimirovna's status. What I read that got my attention was this paragraph on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almanach_de_Gotha

...Although the almanach's structure changed over years, it consisted essentually of three sections. The first section listed the sovereign houses of Europe. The second section included mediatized houses of German nobility. The third section included other selected families of European nobility.
This division was considered of great social significance, as nobles from the second section were considered legally equal to royals appearing in the first section. For example, if a countess from the second section married a royal from the first section, their alliance was considered equal and their children were not regarded as morganatic, retaining their succession rights. On the other hand, if a countess from the third section married a royal from the first section, their children were treated as morganatic and excluded from the succession line in most monarchies.
...The arbitrary division was a major source of frustration for those families who landed in the third section. For example, the Birons of Courland and Murats of Italy ineffectually claimed their right to be included in the second section. Moreover, most princely families of the Russian Empire were not included in the Gotha at all, while the Bagrationi of Georgia (presumed to be the oldest royal dynasty of Europe) technically deserved the place in the first section. The same may be said for the Girays of Crimea, who claimed descent from Genghis Khan.
The Gotha's condescending attitude towards Eastern European nobility and royalty led to the proliferation of German mediatized princesses in the royal houses of Europe. Another consequence was the ongoing Romanov succession dispute, as the current Head of the Russian Imperial Family is the daughter of the Romanov father and the Bagrationi princess, i.e., a morganaut according to the Gotha standards...

 

[Warren]

Toledo, you are selectively (mis-)quoting me. My point was that the term "mediatised" has no relevance to the Russian Princely Families because "mediatised" relates exclusively to the former reigning (and some non-reigning) Houses of the Holy Roman Empire. Thus the Almanach de Gotha would not include Russian Families in the "Mediatised Houses" section.

As an aside, the Almanach (or at least my version) recognises Nikolai Romanov, Prince of Russia, as the de facto Head of the House, and relegates Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna to the position of also-ran. Many of the contributors to the discussion in the Forums would vehemently disagree with the AdG on this.

 

[Toledo]

Warren, what I meant is that I was reading information on the origins of the Almanach Gotha and how their entries ended up affecting the Russian Princely houses (as in the other families before the Romanovs unified everyone under them) when compared to the German princes. Maybe at some point in you reading my note and, maybe at some point, when I read yours we took the wrong turn and misinterpreted each other
I should have elaborated a bit more on where I was heading with the mediatized thing after understanding a little bit more the way the Almanach was published to exalt some princes while ignore others.


And speaking of the hard working Grand Duchess, here is something that just came out on the news that she did it with no help from her cousins. Her attempt to clear the memory of Czar Nicholas II and his family.

Moscow Court Backs Romanov Descendant In Tsar Execution Case
By RIA Novosti
Aug 8, 2006

...The Moscow City Court on Monday granted a complaint from a descendant of the Russian imperial family against a lower court that refused to recognize the nation's last monarch as a victim of Bolshevik repression... According to Great (should read Grand) Duchess Maria Vladimirovna -- who heads the Russian Imperial House in exile -- Nicholas II, his wife and their two children had been killed on orders from the Bolshevik government.

 

[Benjamin]

Photos of H.I.H. Grand Duchess Maria Wladimirovna:

At the 600th Anniversary of the Royal House of Portugal, with H.R.H. The Duke of Bragança (9 Oct 2003)


Investing persons of service to the Imperial House and Russia with some kind of award/medal (23 December 2003)


Visiting a class of Russian schoolchildren on behalf of an Orthodox charity that she is involved with which helps provide education for poorer students (14 Jan 2004)


All Photographs © www.ImperialHouse.ru

 

[Toledo]

Thanks for the pictures Benjamin. Here is another report on Grand Duchess Maria's fight to restore the image of Czar Nicholas and his family. Except this one does not mention her but the Romanov Family Association! From the other article, it was Maria who started the attempt to reabilitate the memory of the Czar and his family.

Moscow City Court repeals judgement denying rehabilitation to Nicholas II
07 August 2006, 16:52
Interfax-religion.com

 

[Toledo]

Here is the site, The Romanov Dynasty
scroll down for the picture of Grand Duchess Maria. By the way, the picture of the full Russian Coat of Arms is worth a goog check up. Very detailed. I've never seen this image with all the banners around it.

Here is a more detailed picture of Blazon of the Great Imperial Russian Arms
The website has also a section about Genealogy that I'll post in the more detailed Genealogy sub forum. I found this place, as always, by chance, while looking for pictures of the Grand Duchess Maria.

 

[RussianHistoryBuff]

Thanks, Larry
May be but the question of the inheritance is very difficult and confused, cause the straight heir is absent. Young brother of Nikolay II, Mikhail refused from the right of the throne. That days there weren't very many members of the family who wants to wear the crone. Then cousin of the Nikolas Kirill decided to do it independent from the opinion of others.

But it’s not legitimate, cause the heir could be sun/daughter of the ruling king or his granddaughter/grandsun on paternal line. So now nobody could be the heir. Those Romanovs who live aboard are alien for us.
Maria Vladimirovna was a political card of Yeltsin. It was very favorable for both sides.
Putin doesn’t need in such actions.

What’s about elections.

Unfortunately Russians perceive any ruler ( General Secretary, President or somebody else) like a “Tsar-Father”, so Russian people will not insist to revive the monarchy.

For your information, the actual laws of succession of the Russian family Romanov, always lye with the Czar {Czaritsa, Czarinna, Royal Regent} of Russia at the time that he or she is ruling. So, because Nikolai Alexandrovich forgave the morganatic marriage of Kirill {Cyril} Vladimirovich, his claim was legal until an announcement that was made by the "Uncoronated Czar of Russia" Mikhail Alexandrovich. He announced that he was going to leave the ruling of Russia to the Russian people. You can read a translated version of his manifesto at http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/manifestogranddukemikhail.htm , so if you read this, you will understand that Mikhail resigned for all of the Romanov family their title as the Imperial Family of All Russia's. Because Mikhail left the government to the people and the at his time, the current DUMA, the Russian throne does, and never will, have another coronated Czar and Emperor of All Russias. This is particularly irritating to me, because I have always thought that a Russian Royal Family with a parliament would bring Russia the Her former height and glory.

 

[lord_rankin]

RussianHistoryBuff:

I read this manifesto and I did not get that he resigned the Romanov family claim to a throne at all. You must take into account that he asked the people to obey the Provisional Government to maintain order in an already chaotic situation. Don't lose heart, cause I to think that a constitutional monarchy is Russia's answer to a more cohesive country.

 

[branchg]

By virtue of force majeure, HIH Grand Duke Michael reliniquished the imperial authority vested in him as Tsar in favor of the Provisional Government because the imperial system was finished. The dynasty was no longer able to hold ultimate power and lost Russia to the Bolsheviks.

It would take an affirmative referendum of the people to restore the monarchy in Russia and the throne could go to anyone. Since Maria is descended from the most imperial blood, it could be her, but her Georgian heritage would be viewed suspiciously, as would her half-German son.

 

[Benjamin]

LA MAYORÍA DE LOS RUSOS ESTÁN EN CONTRA DE LA RESTAURACIÓN DE LA MONARQUÍA

Moscú, 21 de septiembre, RIA Novosti. Aunque la mayoría de los rusos se manifiestan en contra de la restauración de la monarquía, un 22% la apoyarían.

Según el Centro de Estudios de la Opinión Pública (VTSIOM), no la quieren el 66% de los respondientes, pero el 3% se pronuncian en pro y además saben quién podría ocupar el trono. Otros 19% en principio no tienen nada en contra de la monarquía, pero no ven a aquel que podría desempeñar las funciones de monarca. En comparación con los mediados de la década del 90, el número de los partidarios del restablecimiento del poder zarista se ha duplicado con c reces.
http://sp.rian.ru/onlinenews/20060921/54117167.html
==============================================
According the Center of Studies of Public Opinion, 22% of Russians say that they would support a restoration of monarchy, while 66% say they are against.

 

[Benjamin]

More pictures:

Grand Duke Wladimir, Grand Duchess Leonida, Prince and Princess Louis Ferdinand of Prussia (1 Jul 1965)


Grand Duke Wladimir, Grand Duchess Leonida, Grand Duchess Maria, and Prince Franz Wilhelm of Prussia (23 Aug 1976)

Grand Duchess Maria and Grand Duke Georgiy at the funeral of the Countess of Barcelona (13 Jan 2000)


Source: Seeger-Press

 

[BeatrixFan]

An amazing photograph of the Grand Duchess Maria from the GREMB, originally from DPA.

 

[Royal Fan]

I Was wondering after seeing the French thread Just how likely is a Romanov Restoration in Russia

 

[RachelD]

I Was wondering after seeing the French thread Just how likely is a Romanov Restoration in Russia

Royal Fan, you took the words right out of my mouth!
So, what are the chances of this happening?
I've read that Russians are not much in favor of restoring their royalty, but who knows! I read this when I looked up Grand Duchess Maria, but I can't get ahold of the link where I read this.... Maybe the re-burial will stir up wishes to restore the monarchy...?

 

[BeatrixFan]

Well, in a recent survey 22% of Russians said they wanted a Monarchy.

 

[wymanda]

The Pauline Laws required dynasts to make an equal marriage to a "sovereign" house in order to qualify for succession to the throne.

I would like to ask a question. Is Russia a signatory to the International Bill of Human Rights & the European Equal Opportunity Laws?

If so then it is illegal to discriminate against someone because of their birth or marital status. Were this the case then Maria Vladimirovna would be the rightful claimant with no arguement.

 

[Sean.~]

I would like to ask a question. Is Russia a signatory to the International Bill of Human Rights & the European Equal Opportunity Laws?

If so then it is illegal to discriminate against someone because of their birth or marital status. Were this the case then Maria Vladimirovna would be the rightful claimant with no arguement.

Russia is a republic. Hence there is nothing to claim.

Any claim to a non-existant throne is a claim of pretension, and it is an internicine matter for the family and its supporters. These matters are governed by the family house laws & the laws in effect at the time of Revolution, not the laws of the current Russian Republic. That being said, according to the House Laws, Maria Vladimirovna is the rightful claimant, and she has been pretty much recognized as such by the Russian regime. The jr. Nichaelovichi/Romanovich line are just self-important individuals trying to be something they are not.

 

[wymanda]

Russia is a republic. Hence there is nothing to claim.

Any claim to a non-existant throne is a claim of pretension, and it is an internicine matter for the family and its supporters. These matters are governed by the family house laws & the laws in effect at the time of Revolution, not the laws of the current Russian Republic. That being said, according to the House Laws, Maria Vladimirovna is the rightful claimant, and she has been pretty much recognized as such by the Russian regime. The jr. Nichaelovichi/Romanovich line are just self-important individuals trying to be something they are not.

Sean,
My question related to a hypothetical return of the Romanov's to the throne. If this were to happen then surely some sort of investigation would occur to establish the most eligible candidate. If Russia is a party to the legislation I questioned then the "Pauline" house laws could not be applied &, obviously Maria Vladimirovna would be the obvious heir.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Sean, although Russia is a republic, the Romanovs were hardly removed peacefully. There are many people in Russia (22% apparantly) who are monarchists. Those people want someone to look to, to call their would-be Empress and Maria's doing the right thing by working hard for Russia and appearing in public so that those who want to treat her like an Empress, can.

 

[Royal Fan]

I Think its high time they go from "would be" to "Actual" Nothing against Mr Putin of course

 

[Sean.~]

Sean,
My question related to a hypothetical return of the Romanov's to the throne. If this were to happen then surely some sort of investigation would occur to establish the most eligible candidate. If Russia is a party to the legislation I questioned then the "Pauline" house laws could not be applied &, obviously Maria Vladimirovna would be the obvious heir.

The point of the second part of my post (and my post in the reburial thread )was that Maria Vladimirovna is the obvious heir *according* to the Pauline House Laws.

Moreover, the Russian Federation has pretty much recognized the Vladimirovichi line as the legitimate claimants. This was particularly true during the Yeltsin years.

 

[Sean.~]

Sean, although Russia is a republic, the Romanovs were hardly removed peacefully. There are many people in Russia (22% apparantly) who are monarchists. Those people want someone to look to, to call their would-be Empress and Maria's doing the right thing by working hard for Russia and appearing in public so that those who want to treat her like an Empress, can.

I will try this again. This time I will strive to be clearer.

As I said, it is a matter for the family & its supporters to decide upon. Typically, this is done based on the laws effect at the time the monarchy ended.

Moreover, if one were to go by these laws, one would come to the conclusion that MV is the legitimate claimant to the (non-existant) Romanov throne.

However, since there is no actual throne and it is all hypothetical, people (Like the Nichaeolovichi and the numerous "survivors") will try to make to take advantage and make absurd claims and assertions. It will be up to the various family members and Romanov supporters to decide as to who they want to back. There is no compulsion to support one candidate over another, because it is all pretend. In other words, they should support MV, but people will do whatever suits their own ends. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter. Russia has more pressing problems.

Finally, I know that there are some monarchists in Russia (they usually tend to be the more extreme right-wing elements), However, I question the 22% percent figure, and would be curious to get more details on the study conducted.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I think that you raise a good point Sean. At the end of the day, it's how the President of Russia relates to the family and Yeltsin adored Maria. Putin is equally impressed by her and I think that it is the fact that she doesn't buy into the bickering and giving interviews about her title and her past - she just works with Russian charities and represents Russia where-ever and however she can and I think that for communists like Putin and Yeltsin, there's a big stress on working for respect and not just being given it because of birthright and nobody can claim that Maria doesn't work hard for her respect.

 

[BeatrixFan]

However, I question the 22% percent figure, and would be curious to get more details on the study conducted.

No survey or poll will ever come out 100% accurate. Ask 100 monarchists and you get 100%, ask 100 Republicans and you get 100% also so it's hard to determine. I think it was conducted by RealMeter who also conducted polls in Korea and Greece.

 

[Sean.~]

No survey or poll will ever come out 100% accurate. Ask 100 monarchists and you get 100%, ask 100 Republicans and you get 100% also so it's hard to determine. I think it was conducted by RealMeter who also conducted polls in Korea and Greece.

Do you have a link by any chance or know when it was conducted & what the actual question was? I''m just curious, as I'm sure others are.

Thank you.

Sean ~

 

[BeatrixFan]

I'll find the link. I think it's furthur up in this thread or at the GREMB. If I can find it, I'll post it. I know that the result for Korea was 54.4% and for Russia it was 22%, I can't remember the Greece one. But I'll find it.

 

[BeatrixFan]

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=10817667&PageNum=0

There's the link.

 

[Sean.~]

http://www.itar-tass.com/eng/level2.html?NewsID=10817667&PageNum=0

There's the link.

Thank you. Sorry, I thought I was going to get a link to the actual survey rather than an article. This survey was conducted by a Russian organization.

In any case, as I thought, the 22 percent figure was incorrect.
Thhe article clearly states that:

-Only 10 percent of those surveyed want a monarchy. 3 percent believe in autocracy and 6 percent would like to see a constitutional monarchy. Of those surveyed, ten perecent would support a new dynasty, while only 6 percent wold like to see a Romanov restoration;

--22 percent though the old Soviet System was the best the country ever had and;

-47 percent support the current Presidential system.

Thank you, Beatrixfan, for the link.

 

[BeatrixFan]

I apologise - I havent got the actual survery. It's interesting that the 22% figure was taken from 14600 people. I wonder if it was nation wide then it could be very different.

 

[Sean.~]

I apologise - I havent got the actual survery. It's interesting that the 22% figure was taken from 14600 people. I wonder if it was nation wide then it could be very different.

Yes, but the 22 percent figure was referring to those who supported the Soviet System. Not the monarchial one. Only 10 percent supported the idea of monarchy.