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  #2481  
Old 07-03-2016, 12:24 PM
hel hel is offline
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Originally Posted by miche View Post
A college of 300 students (Trinity) within a bigger University of thousands (Cambridge), how are you so sure that they knew each other?
Miche, could I ask (because I've been looking for the numbers and can't find them) where the figure of 300 students at Trinity in 1910 comes from? It's so frustrating when one's Google-fu fails one!
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  #2482  
Old 07-03-2016, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by hel View Post
Miche, could I ask (because I've been looking for the numbers and can't find them) where the figure of 300 students at Trinity in 1910 comes from? It's so frustrating when one's Google-fu fails one!
I'm sorry I'm using today's number.

This cambridge site said there were 1,191 students at Cambridge in 1910
https://www.cam.ac.uk/about-the-univ...ieth-centuries
from the same site (University of Cambridge)
Quote:
In the First World War (1914-19), 13,878 members of the University served and 2,470 were killed.
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  #2483  
Old 07-03-2016, 03:17 PM
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The Duchess of Cambridge: Family, Wealth and Background

The 13K would have been more than just students. Almost every able body man from their late teens to their early 40s could volunteer or later be drafted. From Claudia Joseph's book Lionel Lupton was in the Royal Field Artillery and Albert Spencer in the Life Guards per Wikipedia. They didn't join the same regiment together.


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  #2484  
Old 07-03-2016, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by tonyferen View Post
"Both her sides (Mum and Dad) of the (Kate's) family were lower income working class".

This is what "Queen Camilla" told me this morning.
When and where?
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  #2485  
Old 07-03-2016, 03:45 PM
hel hel is offline
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Thank you very much, miche. Those numbers, to me, tend to support the idea that they knew each other.

With 1191 students across Cambridge, one can probably estimate that there were probably between 60 and 110 at Trinity proper (right now, Trinity has 5 or 6% of the undergrad population, but there were 8 fewer colleges then, so it may have had a higher proportion, but probably not more than 10%).

Those students would have been split across 3 or 4 years, giving an entering class size of 20 at the minimum to 37 at the maximum.


Two people who entered the college in the same year could hardly avoid knowing each other, given that the colleges provide accommodation and a dining hall.

Edited to add:
And my math is totally off since when I looked, it's actually 1191 matriculating students. So it would actually be between 60 and 110 students entering each year (5-10% of the 1191) with no further division by class size.

I suppose it's possible to have no contact with one person amongst 110 whom one lives in the same building with, but it frankly seems unlikely. While there's no definitive evidence that they knew each other, I'd be very surprised indeed if they didn't. There are about the same number of grade 1 students at my child's school, spread across 6 classrooms, and she has a pretty good handle on who most of them are after a single year.
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  #2486  
Old 07-03-2016, 04:02 PM
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Those are the number for the University as a whole, out of 1,191 students, it would be a much smaller number at Trinity college. So it is very possible that they knew each other using the 1910 numbers.
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  #2487  
Old 07-03-2016, 04:06 PM
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The Express article says they even studied the same subject. I have to agree, it would be surprising if they didn't know each other.

The Luptons had sufficient social status and money at the time to easily move within the same circles as Albert Spencer
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  #2488  
Old 07-03-2016, 05:31 PM
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Michael Middleton in no way comes from aristocracy, money yes, aristocracy no. And his money connections were never hidden. It is a well known fact Kate's education was paid for through a family trust on her father's side. It was how her parents could send their kids to expensive boarding schools before their company took off.

his 'artistocratic connections', none he is actually descended from:

Baroness Airedale: William Lupton III had several children. His son Frances III was Olive's grandfather, she was the daughter of his eldest son. Frances' brother Damton fathered Kate Lupton (a first cousin of Olive's dad). Kate married Baron von Schunck, and their daughter married Baron Airedale.

Sir Charles Lupton: was a knight, he receive the OBE. He certainly wasn't an aristocrat. Charles was Olive's Uncle, her father Frances' younger brother (2 of the five sons of Frances Lupton III).

Lady Bullock: Lady Bullock is of a similar relation as Baroness Airedale. Besides Frances and Damton (Olive and Baroness Airedale's grandfathers), William had a third son Joseph. Joseph's son Henry was a cloth merchant and had five children, among them Geoffrey Lupton, a leading figure in the arts and crafts movement. Lady Bullock was born Barbara Lupton, Henry's daughter. Her husband was Sir Christopher Bullock, a civil servant, but a member of the powerful Bullock family. He had some aristocratic blood in the female line. His maternal grandmother was the daughter of the 5th Earl of Orkney. He was a knight commander of the order of bath, and a commander of the order of the british empire, hence his title.

Olive Lupton's father established a trust for his descendents. One of those was Peter Middleton, an Oxford educate pilot, and Michael's father. The Middleton side (Olive marrying Richard Noel Middleton) were solicitors for generations. Michael's niece Lucy is a solicitor.
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  #2489  
Old 07-03-2016, 06:03 PM
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Here's confirmation that he attended Trinity.

THE WAR LIST OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CAMBRIDGE 19141918
Quote:
It was felt that, as an official record of the war services of Cambridge men, this list ought to include only those who were Cambridge men at the time of their war service.
TRINITY COLLEGE 427
LUND,H. Capt., R.A.M.C. (2nd W. Gen. Hospital, T.F.) 1878
LUPTON, A. C. Capt., Yorkshire Hussars and Remount 1893 Service
LUPTON, B. C. Capt., D. of Wellington's (W. Riding 1913 Regt., T.F.) (W2.) M.C.andBar
*LUPTON, F. A. Major, W. Yorks. Regt.(T.F.) 1904 Killed in action 19 Feb. 1917
LUPTON, H. R. Capt., W. Yorks. Regt.; attd. North- 1912 umberland Fus. (W 4.) M.C. M.
*LUPTON, L. M. Lieut., R.F.A.(T.F.) (W.) M 2. 1910 Killed in action 1 6 July 1916
*LUPTON, M. Capt., W. Yorks. Regt. 1906 Killed in action 19 June 1915
LUPTON, N. D. Major, W. Yorks. Regt.(T.F.) and 1894 London Regt. (Rifles); Major, Spec. List (Cmdt., Reception Camp)

But the Lupton/Spencer link is still missing
and this book seems
to dispel that notion that they joined together

There are Spencer's listed, including at Trinity College but no Albert Spencer.

The book can be found online in various forms including text and through subscription from the University's website or previewed through google book.
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  #2490  
Old 07-03-2016, 06:10 PM
hel hel is offline
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But the link that you posted from Peerage about Albert says that he graduated from Trinity College.
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  #2491  
Old 07-03-2016, 06:43 PM
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Yes, they went to Trinity. No evidence they ever did more then sit in a crowded dining hall or lecture hall together, is the point some are making.
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  #2492  
Old 07-04-2016, 09:59 PM
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Yes - there is unfortunately evidence that the two men were together for three years. The Express article points out that they were at Trinity from 1910 - 1913.

"In a remarkable coincidence Lieutenant Lupton attended Trinity College, Cambridge at the same time as Princess Diana's grandfather Albert Spencer, 7th Earl Spencer, where both men studied the same subject.

After studying together between 1910 and 1913 the two men enrolled at the same time to play their part in the war effort."

Lionel Lupton actually did graduate in 1913 - I checked.

The two college mates would have been in the same dining hall - eating together morning, noon and night for 3 years.

And they did a subject together they were both enrolled in Bachelor of Arts.

We just have to accept that Kate's family were allowed to attend VERY expensive college/university with the POSH Spencers.

It's very sad. Cheerio
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  #2493  
Old 07-04-2016, 10:07 PM
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Just because they ate in the same dining hall and took some classes doesn't mean they knew each other than in passing. I certainly went to an University the same size as their classes for my BA. While there maybe 30 English majors, I couldn't claim to even know half more than in passing. There is no evidence that these men remotely knew each other.
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  #2494  
Old 07-04-2016, 10:39 PM
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Lets look at the facts

You misunderstand the UK Express article.

It is not saying that they were great friends.

It is saying that they were at college together - which had well under 100 students in it at that time (1910-1913) - we have established that (read the earlier posts).

These two toffs were in a dining hall every day for 3 years morning, noon and night.

They most likely did sports together, music, balls etc etc etc

Also, as the paper states (and you can check up the Cambridge alumni website) they were taking a tutorial in the same subject.


When you enrolled in a subject at Cambridge - both during WW1 and today - you attend lectures AND tutorials AT THE COLLEGE (in this case the richest college - Trinity)

Tutorials at Cambridge before WW1 were of a small size and held in the tutors room THIS IS A FACT.

The two men knew each other. We must accept the facts.

These two fellows would have done chapel together too.

I was, like you, devastated to read this terrible information - it is in the Cambridge Times newspaper/website too.

I hate to think of Kate's family as associating with the Spencers in any way at all.

All the best
Ant.
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  #2495  
Old 07-04-2016, 11:10 PM
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I don't think the media has ever published articles sneering at the ancestry and family of Michael Middleton, have they? There have been various news items over the years since Kate's engagement that have pointed to facets of the Middletons' middleclass past, and the general public have accepted it and not (in general) negatively commented on it. That would be the same with the Lupton connection. In other words, it's known that Mike Middleton's family were successful industrialists who led a comfortable upper middle class lifestyle.

It's been Carole Goldsmith's working class family background and her perceived social climbing that has drawn criticism, a sort of 'know your place and don't move upwards' view. I think, since the engagement, the tabloid media has concentrated more on stories of Carole (with the possible exception of Pippa) and various unfavourable reports of her brother Gary for example, inferring as clearly as they can, without breaking libel laws, that 'this family' (Carole's family) is 'as common as muck,' to use a working class English expression.

In other words, I don't think Lionel Lupton going to university with Albert Spencer would raise anybody's ire among the British public, but any stories of Carole's grandfather acting in an upperclass manner would.

In many ways the British media has played it both ways, with tales of Kate's coal mining ancestors to pacify readers who feel that the Royals are too remote, too posh, but also featuring stories of mill owners living country gentry lifestyles from Mike's side to placate readers who think the Goldsmiths were just too downmarket to be family to royals. (Remember James Whittaker's remarks before the engagement?)
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  #2496  
Old 07-04-2016, 11:48 PM
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Some of James less than flattering comments. The Middletons were in good company, he took swipes at royals and commoners alike.

James Whitaker: Listen to his frank insight on Kate Middleton, Pippa Middleton, Prince William, Prince Charles and Princess Diana - Mirror Online

I honestly think it was knowing that no one really wants the Cinderella any more. The Cinderella looks like a gold digger now a days, a social climber out for a man for his money. But they didn't want her painted as a snobby socialite. So they show both sides. Her mother's working class roots, and her father's landed gentry (Lupton) and solicitor (Middleton) roots. And of course emphasizing the airline workers who built a huge company. Teamed with Kate having an education and some work history, was an attempt at a more modern middle class Cinderella.
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  #2497  
Old 07-05-2016, 05:42 AM
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As the French say 'tout le monde descend d'un roi et d'un pendu'

It applies to the Queen's family as much as it does to the Middletons, the Rhys-Jones, Chelsy Davy's family or Cressida's family.
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  #2498  
Old 07-05-2016, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miche View Post
The tabloids weren't trying to sell Kate has a simple girl, they were trying to shame Carole from being descendant of miners, being born or living in council house but yet not knowing her place in society by having the nerve to have a successful business. They never went after Michael side of the family.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Olive is Michael Middleton's side of the family. His side was business type people with some money. It's Carole's side that was the coal miners from Durham working class side. Both her sides of the family were lower income working class.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
It's been Carole Goldsmith's working class family background and her perceived social climbing that has drawn criticism, a sort of 'know your place and don't move upwards' view. I think, since the engagement, the tabloid media has concentrated more on stories of Carole (with the possible exception of Pippa) and various unfavourable reports of her brother Gary for example, inferring as clearly as they can, without breaking libel laws, that 'this family' (Carole's family) is 'as common as muck,' to use a working class English expression.
Explains a lot. I have witnessed some really vicious posting about Carole.
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  #2499  
Old 07-05-2016, 03:40 PM
hel hel is offline
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
Explains a lot. I have witnessed some really vicious posting about Carole.
True that. The level of viciousness I regularly see about Catherine and her family tends to make me think better of them; the people who criticize them so crudely, meanly, and relentlessly undermine their own criticism by doing so.
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  #2500  
Old 07-05-2016, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
Explains a lot. I have witnessed some really vicious posting about Carole.
I've seen similar remarks regarding Queen Letizia's background.
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