Portuguese Nobility

[Marengo]

In this thread we can discuss the Portuguese nobility like the Loule's . The Ducal House of Cadaval received it's own thread considering the interest there is in them and the on going dispute between Diane and Rosalinda. But all the other Portuguese noble houses can be discussed here.

[Elsa M.]

Here's an interesting article about D. Pedro Folque de Mendoça Rolim de Moura Barreto (6th Duke of Loulé and 14th Count of Valle de Reis), who is now in the very center of the dinastic polemic raised by the Nuno da Câmara Pereira's book:

http://www.correiodamanha.pt/noticia.asp?id=275139&idselect=19&idCanal=19&p=0

The Duke of Loulé lives in Carcavelos, in a family estate and is a divorcée, father of Henrique Nuno (11 years old) and of 8-year-old Helena, born from the marriage with Margarida Corrêa de Barros Vaz Pinto, celebrated in 1997.

D. Pedro Folque de Mendoça is the 4th child of D. Alberto Nuno Mendoça (V Duke of Loulé) and of D.ª Maria Augusta de Moraes Cardoso de Menezes (from the Counts of Margaride). The noble title (which was created by King Luís I, in 1862, to reward the hero of the Liberal War) did not change his plebeian way of life: he works to pay his bills (he's one of the owners of a company of industrial equipment).

He was born in Portugal, on March 9th 1958, but after the April 25th 1974, Pedro travelled to the United States, where he concluded his degree in Economy. From there, he travelled to Brazil, where he became a business man. For some years, his curriculum was associated to oil companies.

Those who know him say he's a modern and determined man; a simple person, who does not like giving interviews... so far.

[Regina]

According to the (Monarchist) Law, can a divorcée be a King in Portugal?

[Regina]

Interview with Maria Pia, the daughter of King D. Carlos and Amélia de Laredo e Murça (how weird, choosing a lover with the same name of the wife )

Video

Maria Pia de Saxónia Coburgo Bragança died in 1995.

In 1985, Maria Pia named as her heir Rosário Poidimani, in spite of the fact that she had a living daughter and two grandsons.

In 1986 she signed a document affirming that there was a blood relationship between her and Poidimani, but she didn't explain exactly what this relationship was.

Recently, Poidimani presented a demand against the Government of Portugal because the former Minister Freitas do Amaral signed a document in 1996 saying that the only and real Duke of Braganza is D. Duarte Pio.

Pictures of Dª Maria Pia

(from www.reifazdeconta.com)

1 2 3

[Regina]

A friend of mine sent me this Interview with D. Rosário Poidimani:

Video

IMO, D. Rosario is a very smart and well manned man. I like his posture
This video is in Italian but the Portuguese language is very familiar to him.

He recalls the 98th article of the Portuguese Monarchist Constitution to declare that D. Duarte cannot call himself Duke of Braganza. This article says that all the Miguelistas descendants will be banned forever from Portugal.

[Regina]

Pictures of D. Rosário Poidimani:

with Pope JP II

again

Apostolic benediction of Dom Rosario by HH the Pope John Paul II

with some of his colaborators and cardinals during the official dinner

(pictures from Real Casa de Portugal ----------------------)

[Danny SR]

Mr. Rosario Poidimani is wrong in his claims to the portuguese throne, he has no rights what so ever to the throne. The rightfull Duke of Braganca in D. Duarte. Mr. Poidimani claims that D. Duarte could not be king because his family was exiled to austria i belive, that maybe true but the last king of Portugal, D. Manuel II, signed the pact of dover which states that if he had no childeren at the time of his death the title of Duke of Braganca would pass to D. Duarte Nuno and his family. Also Mr. Poidimani seems to forget that accourding to the consitutional letter he has no rights, neither him or Maria Pia. First she had no rights because the letter stated that no child born out of weddlock has any rights to the throne, so right there even if she was D. Carlos I daughter, which she never had concret proof, she could not use the title Duchess of Braganca and could never become queen. Another thing Mr. Poidimani was not born on portuguese territory which means he could never become duke or king. the letter also stated that ONLY people born within portuguese territory could become king or queen of Portugal. So he has no claim what so ever to the portuguese throne, he is a fake and someone nobody should pay any attention to. Also he recently was arrested along with several of his "royal court" members for haveing in his home over 400 illegal deplomatic documents, and also 2 passes to the U.N. which is still to be known how he got them.

[magnik]

On Portuguese
Nobreza - Wikipédia

Anexo:Lista de ducados em Portugal - Wikipédia

Anexo:Lista de marquesados em Portugal - Wikipédia

Anexo:Lista de condados em Portugal - Wikipédia

Anexo:Lista de viscondados em Portugal - Wikipédia

Anexo:Lista de baronatos em Portugal - Wikipédia


And few links here
Worldroots.com

[magnik]

About genealogy (maybe help)
Genealogy - roglo

GeneAll.net

An Online Gotha

Henri van Oene's Royal Genealogies Page

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Danny SR

Mr. Poidimani claims that D. Duarte could not be king because his family was exiled to austria i belive, that maybe true but the last king of Portugal, D. Manuel II, signed the pact of dover which states that if he had no childeren at the time of his death the title of Duke of Braganca would pass to D. Duarte Nuno and his family.

Danny, where did you read that D. Manuel II signed anything stating that D. Duarte Nuno had the right to use the Title? My question is out of curiosity, I am not doubting of your words. I just would like to see D. Manuel's signature.
I say this because many talk about this Pact, many say that D. Manuel II signed it... but where is his signature? I have seen the pact but... it has no signatures at all.
Maybe it exists, I don't say it doesn't. But I would like to see it. Untill then, I don't recognize any vality to this pact. Besides, IF the Pact of Dover was really a legitim document, then why the need of another Pact, like Pact of Paris? The Pact of Paris (1922) was signed by Aires de Ornelas and D. Lourenço Vaz de Almada, representants of D. Manuel and D. Duarte Nuno. D. Manuel never wrote that D. Duarte Nuno should be the next Duke of Braganza. D. Duarte Nuno recognized D. Manuel as King of Portugal, and D. Manuel stated that he would agree with any decision from the Royal Cortes, in the case he died without children.

Actually, I doubt that D. Manuel would write down that D. Duarte Nuno should the legitim heir. D. Amelia never had any special feeling for D. Duarte Nuno's family. On 21 June, 1921, Queen Amelia writes a letter to Salazar saying "if I did that, was just because you asked me..." She was refering to the changes she made to her will, in order to left some part of her inheritance to D, Duarte's family.

Also Mr. Poidimani seems to forget that accourding to the consitutional letter he has no rights, neither him or Maria Pia. First she had no rights because the letter stated that no child born out of weddlock has any rights to the throne, so right there even if she was D. Carlos I daughter, which she never had concret proof, she could not use the title Duchess of Braganca and could never become queen.

She could had been Queen of Portugal if D. Carlos had recognized her as his daughter. King D. João, Mestre de Aviz, was an illegitimated son too.
Since she was registrated as "daughter of unknown father" I have to agree with you.

Another thing Mr. Poidimani was not born on portuguese territory which means he could never become duke or king. the letter also stated that ONLY people born within portuguese territory could become king or queen of Portugal.

Correct, I agree.

[Danny SR]

It is true i havent seen the pact in person to say if it is or isnt really signed and why they had another one I cant really say. But in fact if D. Amelia did not like D. Duatre's family then why agree to be the godmother of D. Duarte Pio long after D. Manuel passed away. I understand it is hard to belive that he would have done that, but it is also very hard to belive D. Carlos would have given Maria Pia any rights, which in fact he couldnt do because the constitution prohibited it. Yes it would have also not let D. Manuel hand over his rights after his death to D. Duarte, but the government did over turn the exile of the miguelista line. Also the actual validity of the freindship between D. Amelia and Salazare to the point that she would do what ever he asked of her I very highly doubt it that side of the Braganca family weren't very happy with the political situation of Portugal at the time thanks to Salazare, I could be wrong but i doubt it. All I was trying to prove or dissprove was Mr. Poidimani's so called rights. Also it is very strange how Maria Pia only came out as D. Carlos's daughter after the death of D. Manuel. Also the so called proof that D. Carlos is her father non of it are originals, these are all copies, and there are contradictions in each one. In fact i belive only one of them states D. Carlos as her father but it was writin in the 50's long after her birth. I know there are some shaddy areas around D. Duarte's claim but it does not compare to Maria Pia's or Mr. Poidimani. In the case of D. Joao the people had proclaimed him king, and I think if by a great miracal the people had a chance to chose if they wanted a monarcy and who they would have as their king, there is no doubt they would chose D. Duarte, they dont even follow what the monarcist party says, who is in favore of the Duke of Lole.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Danny SR

But in fact if D. Amelia did not like D. Duatre's family then why agree to be the godmother of D. Duarte Pio long after D. Manuel passed away.

Dona Amelia accepted to be his Godmother by mere courtesy. Remember she was not present on the Mass in Honour of D. Duarte's birth nor even in his Baptism.

Also the actual validity of the freindship between D. Amelia and Salazare to the point that she would do what ever he asked of her I very highly doubt it that side of the Braganca family weren't very happy with the political situation of Portugal at the time thanks to Salazare, I could be wrong but i doubt it.

Dona Amelia had a huge respect for Salazar. If you have the book "Salazar e a Rainha" you can read some of the letters she wrote him. In Amelia's opinion, Portugal was in good hands with Salazar.
If it wasn't Salazar, D. Duarte Pio wouldn't get anything from Amelia's will and probably he was still living in the exile.

I know there are some shaddy areas around D. Duarte's claim but it does not compare to Maria Pia's or Mr. Poidimani. In the case of D. Joao the people had proclaimed him king, and I think if by a great miracal the people had a chance to chose if they wanted a monarcy and who they would have as their king, there is no doubt they would chose D. Duarte, they dont even follow what the monarcist party says, who is in favore of the Duke of Lole.

I think you are right about Maria Pia or Poidimani. Don't forget there is still D. Francisco Van Uden the cousin of D. Duarte.

About D. João I: he was not proclaimed King by the people, but by the Cortes of Coimbra.

People would choose Duarte Pio as their King ( I agre with you on this, Danny) but in my opinion that would happen because sadly in Portugal, people make decisions according to their emotions. D. Duarte is a nice person, he is gentle, calm and pleasant. He had a beautiful wedding, the bride's dress was regal, the tiara was great and for the Portuguese people, this is enough. But, imo, this is not enough. We must start to think about national problems according to the Law and Reason. And acording to the monarchist laws, D. Duarte is not the right pretender to the Throne. He may have 3 beautiful children, his wife may be so sweet and tender, but that doesnt give him any right to claim rights to the Trone.

[Danny SR]

I dont know if they would still be in exile because i think of regardless of what D. Amelia really wanted Salazar was a man that would get his way regardless and he use D. Duarte's family as a political move which in the ended did really do what expected. About D. Joao from my understanding of how it all went done the cortes de coimbra just did what the people had already done, I could be wrong but i did learn this from Prof. Jose Hermano Saraiva a great historian. When i said that the people would pick D. Duarte I wasnt refering to how nice him and his family present them selves, although they do make a wounderfull family and in the end that is part of the package...lol but i was talking about his ideas and way of thinking. He is a very smart man with great ideas for the country, if only the people that run it would sometimes listen to him. I dont agree with all he says but for the most part. He has been considered a good man of democracy. Unfortunatly i have never really heared what D. Isabel has to say on diffrent topics, she seems to be one who doesnt speak out much....lol I dont really know much about D. Francisco and how he fits in to all this. It is true the law did say that , but a later government overthrough that law and let them back in to the country, and he was born in a portuguese embassy which in most cases and most places is portuguese territory. I just think out of the few that claim they are the rightfull hairs tot he throne, D. Duarte, in my opinion, is the best choice.

[Regina]

Danny, I'm quite happy to have another member to discuss all this here

Originally Posted by Danny SR

About D. Joao from my understanding of how it all went done the cortes de coimbra just did what the people had already done, I could be wrong but i did learn this from Prof. Jose Hermano Saraiva a great historian.

People might have accepted him, gave him their support, but there are not elected Kings in the History of Portugal. If the cortes had refused him, the support from the people would mean nothing.

When i said that the people would pick D. Duarte I wasnt refering to how nice him and his family present them selves, although they do make a wounderfull family and in the end that is part of the package...lol but i was talking about his ideas and way of thinking. He is a very smart man with great ideas for the country, if only the people that run it would sometimes listen to him.

I was not talking about you Danny , don't get me wrong. I was just saying that how I think that the majority of people here think about them. It's my experience but of course there are many others, like you, admire D. Duarte for other reasons that not only his beautiful and tender family.

I dont agree with all he says but for the most part. He has been considered a good man of democracy. Unfortunatly i have never really heared what D. Isabel has to say on diffrent topics, she seems to be one who doesnt speak out much....

D. Isabel doesn't talk much, indeed. I guess she doesn't because she is very shy. Which is sad, because she seems to be a smart lady.

What annoys me the most about D.Duarte is how he tries to be nice to everyone and how he exagerates the stories he tells. I don't say he lies, but I don't have any doubt that he tries to make things look more "glamorouse" than they really are. On a interview to Diário de Notícias (march, 05, 2004) he said:

- In the Arabic countries, they welcome me not only as a Portuguese as also as a descendet of Mohamed. Queen Saint Isabel was a descendent of an Arab princess who was descendent of the Prohphet. This way, I have this very interesting geneological tree that is very well seen in islamic countries.
By other side, when I am with my Jewish friends, I explain them that by D. Afonso Henriques I am also a descendent of King David." .......

What is he trying to say with this? That he is a Christian with a arab and jew origin? Maybe you will disagree, but I find these words of him a complete non-sense. Especially about the last part. Everyone knows the Jewishness comes from the maternal side!

lol I dont really know much about D. Francisco and how he fits in to all this.

Read here

[Danny SR]

Yes it is quite nice to talk to someone else about this, unfortuntly most of my family and freinds think im a bit nutty because i wish that the monarcy would be restored in Portugal. I think that this is also do to republicans that do all they can to suprese the portuguese monarcy and till this day blame it for all of portugal's problems. I think you would agree with me Regina that the republic is to blame for most of the problems there...lol I sitll think that it was the people, i must worn you if you havent noticed already I am a bit stuburn...lol, but i still think that if the people wanted Joao I and the corts didnt they would take up arms but thats just me...lol D. Francisco does seem like a very smart man, but i dont thinkk im quite ready to switch my suport just yet...hahahaha What is your opinion on the fact that the government has taken out the royal family from the national protocol? I think it is very disrespectfull and its a way of turning their back to portuguese history. Also how do you think they handled the whole situation of the 100 yrs of the assacination. I felt that the president Cavaco Silva had much more sence, and was much more respectfull, he at lest attended a ceremony in memory of D. Carlos.

[Regina]

Originally Posted by Danny SR

unfortuntly most of my family and freinds think im a bit nutty because i wish that the monarcy would be restored in Portugal.

Most Portuguese think the royalists are crazy and lunatic people. But it also has to do with the leftist menthality of the Country.
I dont want to start a political discussion, but if you look at these last 30 years, almost every governments were composed by left or left-center parties. Usually, the right wing parties are more conservatives and have more sense of Traditions and Social Rank. If you mention the word Monarchy to Francisco Louçã, a ultra-leftist, he will have a stroke for sure

I think you would agree with me Regina that the republic is to blame for most of the problems there...

I will just say that with D. Carlos, Portugal had democratic elections. After the republic, Portugal had lived very turbulent years (where they killed and stole people and try to destroy the Church). I dont have to say that our economy was almost in bankrupt because of them. After this initial turbulence... 48 years of dictatorship! So yes, Republicans made a very good job indeed...

lol I sitll think that it was the people, i must worn you if you havent noticed already I am a bit stuburn...lol, but i still think that if the people wanted Joao I and the corts didnt they would take up arms but thats just me...

I will study more about João I and his election, Danny, but I am 99% sure that people could not interfere on this.

lol D. Francisco does seem like a very smart man, but i dont thinkk im quite ready to switch my suport just yet...

D. Francisco Van Uden is a man who gave enough proofs of his loyalty to the Country. He is a sucessful business man.
There is a rumor that he promissed to his mother that he would never fight against D. Duarte. I guess that's the reason he remains in silence about his rights.

hahahaha What is your opinion on the fact that the government has taken out the royal family from the national protocol? I think it is very disrespectfull and its a way of turning their back to portuguese history. Also how do you think they handled the whole situation of the 100 yrs of the assacination. I felt that the president Cavaco Silva had much more sence, and was much more respectfull, he at lest attended a ceremony in memory of D. Carlos.

The government has taken out everyone they could. First, the Royal Family, then all the religious authorities. What could you expect from a republican government who decides who is the right Pretender to the Throne? It's the first time in the History that a government in Republic, decides who is the Heir to a Throne! Obviouslly, I was not expecting a good decision from Freitas do Amaral haha! The government didn't follow the monarchist Law. It's decision has no vality.

Cavaco Silva was respectful to D. Carlos memory. Sadly, he was the only one. I gues they are concerned when the terrorism happens in Iraque or USA, but they just don't care when it happens here. Imo, the Regicide was an act of terrorism.

[Danny SR]

Yes i am very familiar with Lousa's quite crazy lifty ideas, I still remember when he was running to be president of Portugal, like we would be any better off with him, I must cunfess though I did vote for the elections but of course voted for the right, Cavaco Silva. Yes i know for a monarcuist to vote for a president doesnt make much sence, but the way I look at it, if we are going to have a president then at lest lets have a good one. What upseted me the most with the attitude of the government was that they had first agreed to have a military band for the ceremonies at S. Vicente de Fora, but then, all thanks to Louca's party and their complaining they government decided not to go ahead with the band. It goes to show that our deputados rather spend their time and resorces on small things like that then actualy doing their job and getting the country out of the situation it is in. But I dont want to get in to a political argument...lol I just hope the right wing parties will take over in both areas for the better of our country. Like I have always said I rather have a republic if it would be for the best of the country if that was what the people wanted. We will see what happens in the future.

[Regina]

What upseted me the most with the attitude of the government was that they had first agreed to have a military band for the ceremonies at S. Vicente de Fora, but then, all thanks to Louca's party and their complaining they government decided not to go ahead with the band.

Indeed! Sócrates was worried to proclaim that officially D. Duarte is the rightPretender to the Throne but when it comes to gives honours to a murdered King, he and his ministers decide to obbey to this small political party...

But I dont want to get in to a political argument...lol I just hope the right wing parties will take over in both areas for the better of our country.

[Regina]

A friend of mine just sent the news that the italian newspaper Corrieri della Sera (March 02) brings an article about Rosario Poidimani:


1

2

I didn't know he is married with Kristina Starnakova (25 years old). There is a 40 years gap between them! It seems the Portuguese pretenders like to marry very younger women! D. Duarte and his wife have a gap of 32 years old.

[Danny SR]

Yes it does seem they do like younger ladies, but i must say D. Duarte and D. Isable make a much nicer couple....lol At lest you cant notice the gap that much. I dont read much italian but from what I did get its just the same old talk of how he is so badly treated since he is the true hair to the throne, his whining is getting quite old....lol at lest the other pretenders to the throne have a much better case in their favore then he does in his....