Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[Kitty1224]

Harry may request that his children be born with the title of HRH. If Harry asks his grandmother to issue specific LP's my guess is she would not say no.

I 100% agree.

 

[Osipi]

I seriously don't think Harry would even have to ask and it will just be done for the reason being that should any of Harry's children be born without a HRH title, they would be that way for only a relatively short amount of time.

For all we know, by the time we're peering anxiously at the outside of the Lindo wing for Harry's first child to be born, that child will be born as a HRH as the grandson/granddaughter of the monarch.

 

[Kitty1224]

I don't think you understand how it works.

What Harry wants has nothing to do with it. The current LPs say that the following people are HRH Prince/Princesses:
- the children of a monarch
- the male-line grandchildren of a monarch
- the children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales

Harry's children are not covered, therefore they'll be styled as Lord/Lady, until such time as they are the male-line grandchildren of a monarch.

You do know The Queen can change the LPs right and allow Harry's kids to be HRH. At the end of the day we don't know what will happen.

 

[wyevale]

and sobering, but true Osipi..

 

[Somebody]

I seriously don't think Harry would even have to ask and it will just be done for the reason being that should any of Harry's children be born without a HRH title, they would be that way for only a relatively short amount of time.

I doubt it. Why wouldn't the queen have covered that when she issued LP for William's children? It would have been really easy to cover it by stipulating that 'all male-line grandchildren of the Prince of Wales' would receive the style of Royal highness and be prince(sse)s. She, however, decided to limit it to all children of the eldest son of the PoW.

Moreover, it could be that Harry's children are never grandchildren of the monarch if the crown passes directly from the queen to Wiliam.

 

[Skippyboo]

William doesn't have the option to pull a Wessex and turn down HRHs for his children. Harry has that option. William's kids will be working royals. Harry's children -it is not given that they will be. Especially since they will be younger than George, Charlotte and C3, so all 3 will be working royals to some extent before Harry's children will be old enough to do anything. They are basically the Bea and Eugenie of the next generation.

 

[Abbigail]

Moreover, it could be that Harry's children are never grandchildren of the monarch if the crown passes directly from the queen to Wiliam.

Well we know the only way that would happen and I wouldn't bet on it.

As for the Queen not issuing LPs for all grandchildren of the PoW, maybe she wasn't comfortable doing so before Harry even had a wife. Perhaps she prefers to handle these things as they come.

 

[Osipi]

With the Queen's longevity, having an heir to the heir to the heir (more heirs than William has on his head almost) to the throne that was born as a great grandchild was really kind of unprecedented and the Queen issued letters patent because of that. Now with the Cambridges going on baby #3, all three of those children are covered and are HRH.

I imagine that with Harry, they decided that they would approach any problem of titles for his children if and when the time came. His firstborn may be born in the Queen's reign or even Charles or William's reign so there's nothing etched in stone yet for Harry's kids. If he and Meghan were to marry tomorrow by a Elvis impersonator in Las Vegas and Harry was not given a dukedom, his children would be Master or Miss if the Queen still reigned.

I think I got that right. Low on caffeine here. Need coffee

 

[Somebody]

Well we know the only way that would happen and I wouldn't bet on it.

Nor would I, but the post I responded to suggested that Harry's children could well be born as grandchildren of the monarch, and we also know what that implies. Both scenarios could happen as much as we don't like to think about it.

As for the Queen not issuing LPs for all grandchildren of the PoW, maybe she wasn't comfortable doing so before Harry even had a wife. Perhaps she prefers to handle these things as they come.

That could very well be the case but if she had made her mind up about it (which probably would be the case if 'Harry doesn't even need to ask') than issueing LPs covering both situations would make more sense to me. If it is still up for debate, the situation would be different.

 

[wyevale]

Both scenarios

Actually only ONE scenario, if the PoW predeceases his Mother.
Even if he abdicates half an hour after his Mothers death, he will still have been King, and thus Harry's Children will have been Grandchildren of a King, and therefore be Royal Highnesses.

 

[Abbigail]

Nor would I, but the post I responded to suggested that Harry's children could well be born as grandchildren of the monarch, and we also know what that implies. Both scenarios could happen as much as we don't like to think about it.

But it's safe to say one is more likely than the other.

That could very well be the case but if she had made her mind up about it (which probably would be the case if 'Harry doesn't even need to ask') than issueing LPs covering both situations would make more sense to me. If it is still up for debate, the situation would be different.

I'm not sure it's as much up for debate as it's simply her deciding on these matters as they come. In other words, she could know what her decision would be but still only feel comfortable acting on it when necessary.

 

[Somebody]

Actually only ONE scenario, if the PoW predeceases his Mother.
Even if he abdicates half an hour after his Mothers death, he will still have been King, and thus Harry's Children will have been Grandchildren of a King, and therefore be Royal Highnesses.

Seems there is a misunderstanding. I tried to say that both the scenario in which Harry's children are born as grandchildren of the monarch (the scenario that I originally responded to) and the scenario in which his children never are grandchildren of the monarch (as per the scenario you reference) are possibilities. You also add a third scenario: the children are born during William's reign while Charles has been the monarch.

If we want to consider all options, there are many scenarios; and some of them are exclusive and others could be combined, for example, if some child(ren) is/are born under one scenario and the other(s) under a different scenario) - I expect that there will be consistency among the siblings -, but we don't know which one(s) it will be :

1. Harry won't have children, so no need to worry about titles

2. Harry's children are born within the Queen's reign and no LPs are issued, so they are born as Lords and Ladies (to address Osipi's suggestion that they would be master and miss if Harry is not made a Duke, I don't think that would be the case: prince Michael's children are also Lord and Lady) - his eldest son would use his secondary title if Harry has one (as a royal duke).
2A. When Charles' ascends the throne they become HRH and prince(ss).
2B. When Charles' ascends the throne (or at Harry's wedding) it is announced that Harry's children will be styled as Lord and Lady (compare: Louise & James) instead of HRH prince(ss).

3. Harry's children are born within the Queen's reign and LPs are issued making them HRH and prince(ss) from birth.

4. Harry's children are born within his father's reign; they are
(4A) HRH prince(ss) from birth; or
(4B) styled as Lord (first son: secondary title if applicable) and Lady as it has been announced that Harry's children will not be HRH prince(ss) but instead be treated as the children of a non-royal-duke (or however they might formulate that)

5. Harry's children are born within their uncle's reign but Charles has been king in-between; they are
(5A) HRH prince(ss) from birth; or
(5B) styled as Lord (first son: secondary title if applicable) and Lady as it has been announced that Harry's children will not be HRH prince(ss) but instead be treated as the children of a non-royal-duke (or however they might formulate that)

6. Harry's children are born within their uncle's reign and Charles has never been king; they are
6B. Styled as Lord (first son: secondary title if applicable) and Lady if no LPs are issued by King William
6B. Styled as HRH prince(ss) (from birth) because William issued LPs to make that happen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

With the Queen's longevity, having an heir to the heir to the heir (more heirs than William has on his head almost) to the throne that was born as a great grandchild was really kind of unprecedented and the Queen issued letters patent because of that. Now with the Cambridges going on baby #3, all three of those children are covered and are HRH.

I imagine that with Harry, they decided that they would approach any problem of titles for his children if and when the time came. His firstborn may be born in the Queen's reign or even Charles or William's reign so there's nothing etched in stone yet for Harry's kids. If he and Meghan were to marry tomorrow by a Elvis impersonator in Las Vegas and Harry was not given a dukedom, his children would be Master or Miss if the Queen still reigned.

I think I got that right. Low on caffeine here. Need coffee

They would still be Lord/Lady - as per the 1917 LPs that give that status to the children of the younger sons of the male-line grandsons of the monarch. They would qualify in the same way that Prince Michael of Kent's children are Lord Frederick and Lady Gabriella.

 

[Somebody]

They would still be Lord/Lady - as per the 1917 LPs that give that status to the children of the younger sons of the male-line grandsons of the monarch. They would qualify in the same way that Prince Michael of Kent's children are Lord Frederick and Lady Gabriella.

Glad to see that my comment in the previous suggestion is backed up. I also thought of/referenced prince Michael's children but wasn't sure on what basis they were given their styles (is style the right word for Lord/Lady as it's not a title?!), so thanks for clarifying that all of that was part of the LPs in 1917.

 

[Kitty1224]

They would still be Lord/Lady - as per the 1917 LPs that give that status to the children of the younger sons of the male-line grandsons of the monarch. They would qualify in the same way that Prince Michael of Kent's children are Lord Frederick and Lady Gabriella.

The Queen could change it if she wants to.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Of course the Queen can change things by issued new LPs.

I am talking about what it is the situation if she doesn't issue new LPs or let her Will be Known - as she did with Louise and James.

Under the existing LPs Harry's children will be born Lord/Lady in the present reign and then become HRH Prince/Princess when Charles becomes King.

 

[Kitty1224]

Of course the Queen can change things by issued new LPs.

I am talking about what it is the situation if she doesn't issue new LPs or let her Will be Known - as she did with Louise and James.

Under the existing LPs Harry's children will be born Lord/Lady in the present reign and then become HRH Prince/Princess when Charles becomes King.

I know but some of you here act as if you know everything and every decision.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

I know but some of you here act as if you know everything and every decision.

Of course that is not possible, but many members here are very knowledgeable and able to discuss what is most likely based on that knowledge and share why.

 

[Osipi]

One thing I can always count on here is that if I make a mistake or state something that isn't correct, it is quickly put to rights. Its how I've learned over the years. It happens in discussions and I, for one, am glad it does.

Thank you once again, Iluvbertie, for setting things straight.

 

[Pranter]

Of course that is not possible, but many members here are very knowledgeable and able to discuss what is most likely based on that knowledge and share why.

And if you follow the relationship itself and have been following the BRF awhile ..you kinda know the patterns of what normally goes on with how they do things.


LaRae

 

[Denville]

True but things aren't always done, as they "Normally" do things.

 

[Pranter]

True but things aren't always done, as they "Normally" do things.

There's always a chance of them doing something unusual...however generally past behavior indicates future behavior.


LaRae

 

[Denville]

But things are different. Noone expected Charles to get a divorce and marry a divorced woman and yet it happened.. andi it was announced that she might not take the title of Queen. Meg is a divorcee, and years ago, that would have put her out of the running for marrying a royal at H's level. So who can say?
Edward and Sophie's children are not using the titles of Prince/ss and are just Vct and Lady Louise...
For what its worth I don't think that it will be differnet.. I think that H's children will be given HRH and rank of Prince or Pss..but it could be different...

 

[Osipi]

The differences that could occur is what keeps these threads alive and active as we ponder over what could be and what has been done in the past.

We may even see Harry going the route of his Uncle Edward and ask that his children not be titled and styled as HRH Prince/ss but rather the children of a Duke (presuming that he is created a duke upon marriage).

Nothing is ever written in stone until those hammers and chisels come out and they start hammering on the stone.

 

[Pranter]

But things are different. Noone expected Charles to get a divorce and marry a divorced woman and yet it happened.. andi it was announced that she might not take the title of Queen. Meg is a divorcee, and years ago, that would have put her out of the running for marrying a royal at H's level. So who can say?
Edward and Sophie's children are not using the titles of Prince/ss and are just Vct and Lady Louise...
For what its worth I don't think that it will be differnet.. I think that H's children will be given HRH and rank of Prince or Pss..but it could be different...

As I said, yes it could be different....things do change now and then. The last King who tried to marry a divorcee had to abdicate. It's only taken about 60 or so years for that to change.


LaRae

 

[Skippyboo]

Even if the kids are not made HRHs from birth, they would automatically be upgraded when Charles is King if that is what their parents want. They would not be using their HRH titles until they are adults so if they spend the first couple years as Lord or Lady it's not going to be a big deal. Look at Prince George, he is just George Cambridge at his school. Nanny Maria isn't bowing to him each morning and calling him your royal highness and sir. He is just George because he is 4. It is quite possible that George doesn't even know that he is a prince and a future King.

 

[Rhea6]

I think that Harry would not want to give HRH status to his kids and let them lead as normal a life as possible without much criticism from media .

Anyway William and Kate will have 3 kids (or more ) . The fact is more the kids lesser spotlight on Harry n his family and stronger emphasis on the Cambridge children lives as they grow up .

 

[Lady Nimue]

I think that Harry would not want to give HRH status to his kids and let them lead as normal a life as possible without much criticism from media.

I agree. I have an inkling Harry might not opt for titles for his children if it were his decision alone. Maybe. Because people do change, and especially when one's children are the issue. Thing is, it won't be his decision alone, not so? The Queen and Charles, but especially William, would certainly have input, and might not the wishes of his then-wife, and mother of his children, have input? I think so. With all that in mind, the possibility is a coin-toss imo.

Anyway William and Kate will have 3 kids (or more ). The fact is more the kids lesser spotlight on Harry and his family and stronger emphasis on the Cambridge children lives as they grow up.

Unless he and William wind up having an agreement, but I think this is the major point. Especially as they will already have 3 children (and maybe more). I also think they will automatically have the titles of Lord and Lady because of Harry's HRH, not so? I think the latter are called courtesy titles.

 

[duchessrachel]

(more heirs than William has on his head almost)

 

[Somebody]

Unless he and William wind up having an agreement, but I think this is the major point. Especially as they will already have 3 children (and maybe more). I also think they will automatically have the titles of Lord and Lady because of Harry's HRH, not so? I think the latter are called courtesy titles.

If no special amendments are made Harry's children would be Lord/Lady when born during the Queen's reign, but will become HRH and prince of [insert Harry's dukedom] when Charles ascends the throne; or if born during Charles' reign. If Charles never ascends the throne they will be Lord/Lady all their lives.

So, theoretically the number of children of William and Catherine is irrelevant, unless that would be a reason for the monarch to make amendments to the current rules.