Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children

[lyndaW]

And I believe Chelsy's dad Charles (oh my, another Charles) has recently been cleared of all wrong doings, after the Robert Mugabe Regime stole 140,000 acres and dis-placed all the people in that area. And the Saga continues...............and probably will for many years, as Zimbabwe is not the most stable country, especially for very rich landowners that have worked very hard to maintain. Oh we could go on and on......

 

[LaPlusBelle]

Alright, another random question. The Duke of York, since he currently (and possibly only) has two daughters, do his titles merge with the crown upon his death? I'm pretty sure they don't pass on to Beatrice or Eugenie. Would they pass to the crown, or possibly his younger brother...?

 

[wbenson]

Alright, another random question. The Duke of York, since he currently (and possibly only) has two daughters, do his titles merge with the crown upon his death? I'm pretty sure they don't pass on to Beatrice or Eugenie. Would they pass to the crown, or possibly his younger brother...?

His titles will become extinct upon his death, allowing them to be reissued. There's talk of a curse on the title, as the holder for the last several issuances has either become monarch or died with no sons. Some titles can be given a special remainder so that they go to an eldest daughter (i.e. the Earldom of Mountbatten), but the Dukedom of York does not include this.

 

[MichelleVA]

Thank you for your posting of this! I have been curious what they would be titled and the knowledge you have here is amazing!
Michelle

 

[Iluvbertie]

His titles will become extinct upon his death, allowing them to be reissued. There's talk of a curse on the title, as the holder for the last several issuances has either become monarch or died with no sons. Some titles can be given a special remainder so that they go to an eldest daughter (i.e. the Earldom of Mountbatten), but the Dukedom of York does not include this.

Since the late 1400s neither the Dukedom of York nor the Dukedom of Clarence have been inherited into the second generation with the holder either becoming king or dying without legitimate male issue.

Whether that is a curse or not I don't know but...

 

[Iluvbertie]

Well, since William will be Prince of Wales when Charles takes the throne, a dukedom will be a lesser title.

Actually we don't know if William will ever be Prince of Wales.

Charles will have to create that title for him. It isn't automatic.

William will automatically inherit the title Duke of Cornwall when the Queen dies but the title Prince of Wales has to be issued by Letters Patent and we don't know if that will happen.

The present Queen waited over 6 years before issuing the Letters Patent for Charles and Edward VII waited nine months before creating George V Prince of Wales. Charles may simply not issue the relevant Letters Patent and with growing Welsh nationalism that may be a very real possibility.

 

[LaPlusBelle]

So, why did Patricia Mountbatten get the Earldom from Dickie (Philip's uncle) but the same can't be done? What are the specifics when it comes to Letters Patent?

 

[wbenson]

So, why did Patricia Mountbatten get the Earldom from Dickie (Philip's uncle) but the same can't be done? What are the specifics when it comes to Letters Patent?

When Dickie was created Earl of Mountbatten, it was quite likely that he would have no more children. Being close to his daughters, he asked that a provision be inserted into the Letters Patent allowing Patricia and Pamela to succeed to the Earldom should he have no male heirs. When he was assassinated, the Earldom went to Patricia as she was the older of the two and had no brothers. This doesn't apply to any female who is not a daughter of Lord Mountbatten, though, so no other females (barring the death of Patricia and all her descendants before the death of Pamela) will inherit the Earldom.

All of this must be done upon the creation of the title, however. This cannot be done for the Duke of York, as his title was created upon his marriage with no such remainder. Theoretically, he could be granted a second Dukedom of York with a special remainder. He would then become the 1st Duke of York of the 8th creation and the 1st Duke of York of the 9th creation. This was done in 1900 for the Duke of Fife, who had been created Duke of Fife previously in 1889. Thus, for the 12 years until his death, he was 2 Dukes of Fife at once. If this was done for Andrew, the 8th creation of the Dukedom of York would go extinct on his death, while Beatrice would become the 2nd Duchess of York of the 9th creation.

 

[Iluvbertie]

When Dickie was created Earl of Mountbatten, it was quite likely that he would have no more children. Being close to his daughters, he asked that a provision be inserted into the Letters Patent allowing Patricia and Pamela to succeed to the Earldom should he have no male heirs. When he was assassinated, the Earldom went to Patricia as she was the older of the two and had no brothers. This doesn't apply to any female who is not a daughter of Lord Mountbatten, though, so no other females (barring the death of Patricia and all her descendants before the death of Pamela) will inherit the Earldom.

All of this must be done upon the creation of the title, however. This cannot be done for the Duke of York, as his title was created upon his marriage with no such remainder. Theoretically, he could be granted a second Dukedom of York with a special remainder. He would then become the 1st Duke of York of the 8th creation and the 1st Duke of York of the 9th creation. This was done in 1900 for the Duke of Fife, who had been created Duke of Fife previously in 1889. Thus, for the 12 years until his death, he was 2 Dukes of Fife at once. If this was done for Andrew, the 8th creation of the Dukedom of York would go extinct on his death, while Beatrice would become the 2nd Duchess of York of the 9th creation.

It is also possible, although highly unlikely, that the monarch could ask parliament to pass legislation to alter the original Letters Patent.

I could actually see this happening for Andrew once both the present Queen and DOE have passed on as the expectation is that Charles will create Edward Duke of Edinburgh. As Edward only has a daughter, and it is highly unlikely that he will have any other children with Sophie, the Edinburgh title would become extinct on Edward's death unless, at the creation of the new title, Louise was able to inherit (which I suspect will be the case). As this would mean Edward's daughter being able to inherit but not Andrew's I suspect that legislation, or other action, will happen to even up the rights of the daughters in this case.

 

[branchg]

It may happen once Charles becomes King as a way to compensate for the loss of Beatrice and Eugenie's titles and rank as Princesses.

I think it is quite likely new letters patent will be issued limiting the style and title of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK to the children of the Sovereign and the eldest grandchild of the Sovereign. Allowing his nieces to inherit new creations of the dukedoms of York and Edinburgh in their own right would be honourable.

 

[kimebear]

I think it would be very unfair for Charles to strip his nieces of the rank they were born with and I hope that it doesn't happen. He should think very long and hard about whether he wants Harry's children to be without rank after William ascends before doing the same to his own brother's children who were born and raised as princesses.

 

[branchg]

I think it would be very unfair for Charles to strip his nieces of the rank they were born with and I hope that it doesn't happen. He should think very long and hard about whether he wants Harry's children to be without rank after William ascends before doing the same to his own brother's children who were born and raised as princesses.

If Charles issues new letters patent as I described, then Harry's children would not be HRH Prince/Princess of the UK, but simply Lord/Lady Windsor, along with any courtesy styles as the children of a Duke.

Same thing for William's children, except his eldest child would enjoy the style and title of HRH Prince/Princess as the spare to the throne.

 

[kimebear]

If Charles issues new letters patent as I described, then Harry's children would not be HRH Prince/Princess of the UK, but simply Lord/Lady Windsor, along with any courtesy styles as the children of a Duke.

Same thing for William's children, except his eldest child would enjoy the style and title of HRH Prince/Princess as the spare to the throne.

That's what I don't like about it. Chances are that by the time Charles ascends the throne, William and Harry will both have children that will automatically be granted an HRH and Prince/Princess ** of ** title and styles for whatever time period it takes to issue the new letters patent, only to have them yanked away again. Considering how potentially small the royal family would be with only William and Harry's children gaining a title (the Windsors haven't exactly had a baby boom with each one only having two children), at the very least they could consider adopting the older letters that granted "lesser" royals the HH style and no place on the civil list. If William, for whatever reason had no children and Harry pre-deceased him, the next in line would be the new (non-royal) Duke of *whatever Harry's title will be* or Lady ** Windsor taking the throne. All this just to take Beatrice and Eugenie's titles away?

 

[branchg]

He was never "Earl of Mountbatten". He was created "Earl Mountbatten of Burma" as a personal honour for his service to Britain, both as Viceroy of India and his long naval career. Since he had no sons, it was agreed a special remainder would be granted allowing his daughters to inherit the peerage in their own right.

 

[banda_windsor]

He suppose to be the Duke of York, but probably he will be the Duke of Clarence. But, the Dukedom of Clarence was abolished. So i have no other idea...

 

[branchg]

That's what I don't like about it. Chances are that by the time Charles ascends the throne, William and Harry will both have children that will automatically be granted an HRH and Prince/Princess ** of ** title and styles for whatever time period it takes to issue the new letters patent, only to have them yanked away again. Considering how potentially small the royal family would be with only William and Harry's children gaining a title (the Windsors haven't exactly had a baby boom with each one only having two children), at the very least they could consider adopting the older letters that granted "lesser" royals the HH style and no place on the civil list. If William, for whatever reason had no children and Harry pre-deceased him, the next in line would be the new (non-royal) Duke of *whatever Harry's title will be* or Lady ** Windsor taking the throne. All this just to take Beatrice and Eugenie's titles away?

A downsizing of the royal family has been discussed for years by The Queen, Prince Philip and their children. The Duke of York remains adamantly opposed to his daughters losing their royal rank and titles, but I doubt Charles feels the same way about it. Anne's children are commoners with no royal responsibilities and it remains to be seen if Beatrice or Eugenie will take on public duties.

Given that Edward has already set a precedent by announcing his children would not be styled as Prince/Princess, the wheels are already in motion to future changes.

 

[branchg]

He suppose to be the Duke of York, but probably he will be the Duke of Clarence. But, the Dukedom of Clarence was abolished. So i have no other idea...

Harry will probably become Duke of Sussex or Cambridge when he marries.

 

[branchg]

can two people have titles over the same place? for example could there be both a duke of clarence and earl of clarence??

Yes. In 1881, Prince Leopold was created Earl of Clarence, along with his primary title as Duke of Albany, by his mother, Queen Victoria. In 1890, she created her eldest grandson, Prince Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence and Avondale.

The dukedom became extinct with Eddy's death, but Clarence is still suspended as an earldom when Charles Eduard lost his British honours and titles under the Titles Deprivation Act for supporting Germany in WWI.

 

[bluestocking]

They might go the route that Norway did, with only the heir to the throne and the eldest grandchild entitled to the title of His/Her Royal Highness Prince/Princess and the younger children of the heir called His/Her Highness Prince/Princess. The two children of Prince Haakon are Her Royal Highness Princess Ingrid Alexandra, but just His Highness Prince Sverre Magnus. Beatrice and Eugenie might well WELCOME being known as simply Lady Beatrice and Lady Eugenie. Being princesses probably cramps their style. Harry will undoubtedly get a royal dukedom of something or other, but his children will be only Lords and Ladies.

 

[branchg]

I doubt the qualification of Highness will be reinstated.....it seems pointless and there is little practical difference in being Your Royal Highness or Your Highness in today's modern world.

I think it will be simplified greatly to reflect the reality of The Sovereign's children carrying most of the future load in terms of public duties, while allowing everyone else a measure of a private life without the burden of being a prince or princess.

 

[kimebear]

Given that Edward has already set a precedent by announcing his children would not be styled as Prince/Princess, the wheels are already in motion to future changes.

Yes Louise is known as only Lady Louise but as we have stated so often here on the boards, she is legally HRH Princess Louise of Wessex until letters of patent state otherwise. It seems that HM is giving Edwards children the choice to decide for themselves. Being completely untitled hasn't stopped the world from chasing around Zara and Peter Phillips. They don't get the same level of press attention as William and Harry, but it's equal to what we see with Beatrice and Eugenie. My suggestion with giving Harry's children and Williams younger children the HH style was to recognize that Harry's children will never be normal no matter what they call themselves. HM has four royal children that have public duties and two daughter in laws that do also, as well as TRH the Duke and Duchess of Kent, THR the Duke and Duchess of Gloucester and HRH Princess Alice. Who is going to do all of these official duties in the future with only William, Harry, their wives and Williams heir? Harry's untitled children? It will take 4 people just to replace the Princess Royal!

 

[Iluvbertie]

He suppose to be the Duke of York, but probably he will be the Duke of Clarence. But, the Dukedom of Clarence was abolished. So i have no other idea...

Why do you think 'he is suppsed to be the Duke of York'?

Under the current LPs governing that title if Andrew had had a son then that son would have inherited the title. If he remarries and has a son that son will inherit.

There is nowhere where it is stated that the second son should be Duke of York. It is just that since the 1400s no Duke of York has had sons to inherit unless they have also become king.

The Dukedom of Clarence wasn't abolished. It became extinct and is available for regrant, unlike York which will be held by Andrew until his death and would therefore be highly unlikely that it would be available for regrant during the time that Harry would be getting any title.

My betting would be on Clarence, Cambridge or Sussex personally, with LPs allowing gender neutral inheritance.

I wouldn't be surprised, if during Charles' kingship, if not earlier, legislation is passed allowing for gender neutral inheritance of ALL titles, including the monarchy - especially if Edward and Sophie's second child is a son who would take precedence over his elder sister in the line of succession to the throne and who would be able to inherit his father's titles despite being the younger child.

 

[branchg]

Most of the work carried out by The Queen's cousins and children will continue for a long time. They are all relatively young and in good health.

 

[kimebear]

Most of the work carried out by The Queen's cousins and children will continue for a long time. They are all relatively young and in good health.

Yes now they are. But what about 30 years from now when William is king (assuming Charles lives as long as his father and outlives his grandfather and great-grandfather) with only 1 or 2 children of his own? Can 6-8 royals handle the duties that 12-13 handle now? That's assuming that William's children handle a full load at a younger age than William and Harry are now no matter how many he has. With Harry's royal style ending with him, are they going to start cutting back on the number of appearances the royals are able to make? Seems to me that reducing the interaction with the public might be a more pressing concern than how many Princes and Princesses Great Britain has.

 

[bluestocking]

That's assuming the monarchy is even around in 30 years or that royal duties are required of any of these people. Ribbon cuttings and hospital visits are hardly essential to the life of the country, are they? I think the royal family is likely to be drastically down-sized if it continues to exist.

 

[kimebear]

That's assuming the monarchy is even around in 30 years or that royal duties are required of any of these people. Ribbon cuttings and hospital visits are hardly essential to the life of the country, are they? I think the royal family is likely to be drastically down-sized if it continues to exist.

No, not essential to life, but when the royal family stops showing interest in interacting with citizens, the monarchy will be abolished.

 

[acdc1]

Ok, I think that this is the right thread, but I'm not sure. I'll just assume it is until otherwise told.

This question has been bugging me for a while. Let's say that Charles dies before the Queen or doesn't want the throne, and William becomes King. If Harry doesn't have any children, and gets married and then has them, would they be HRH's? What if Charles does become king, would they be HRH's because they are grandchildren of the monarch in the male line? I'm assuming Harry's grandkids won't be titled, or at least not HRH's.

 

[BillW65]

Ok, I think that this is the right thread, but I'm not sure. I'll just assume it is until otherwise told.

This question has been bugging me for a while. Let's say that Charles dies before the Queen or doesn't want the throne, and William becomes King. If Harry doesn't have any children, and gets married and then has them, would they be HRH's? What if Charles does become king, would they be HRH's because they are grandchildren of the monarch in the male line? I'm assuming Harry's grandkids won't be titled, or at least not HRH's.

If Harry gets married and has children while his grandmother is still alive they will not be HRH/Prince or Princess until his father becomes King Charles III (then they will be the grandchildren of the sovereign). Great-grandchildren in the male line of the sovereign are not entitled to the style of HRH and the title of Prince/Princess under the terms of the Letters Patent issued by king George V in 1917. Incidentally, as it stands now, if Prince William marries and has children within the lifetime of the Queen only his eldest son will be eligible for the style of HRH and the title of Prince/Princess. Any other children will have to wait until their grandfather becomes King to enjoy that privilege.

 

[branchg]

Assuming new letters patent are not issued changing the 1917 Letters Patent of George V (which is very likely once The Queen dies), Harry's children would automatically be HRH Prince/Princess of the UK once Charles became King.

If William succeeds instead, Harry's children would be Lord/Lady Windsor, along with any courtesy styles enjoyed as the children of a Duke, which may, in fact, be the case in the future even if they are legally entitled to be HRH.

 

[tripitaka]

The Queen would grant a dukedom to William so his wife wouldn't be styled "HRH Princess William". When Charles becomes King, William would then be HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Clarence until his father created him Prince of Wales and Earl of Chester.

Makes sense for Harry's wife, but William, as heir to the heir, should retain "prince" as his style imho. I think the smallfolk would demand it. After all, they wilfully ignored custom and insisted on calling Diana "Princess Diana". Does anyone think those same folks would be content to call her son's wife a "mere" Duchess?

Just think of the subtext here; the two other royal duchesses are Camilla and Sarah. The style "duchess", imho, is "dirtied" as a style for a member of the royal family.

The simpler way would be to grant a life peerage to Kate or whoever it's going to be prior to the wedding, and she can be Princess Katherine or whatever. (I like the name Katherine as a royal princess, because I admire Kathryn Swynford. Spoiled by Seton I suppose.) I know this has never been done before but there's no reason why it shouldn't be. Plus I think it would send a good signal to elevate Kate to a title in her own right, rather than stick yet another title on William and have her be a hatstand for his titles.

If Her Majesty had done that for Diana, the flap over the HRH would have been somewhat muted I think.