Social Norms: Diana and Staff

[Duchess]

i'm sure someone out there could answer this.

some of you may recall the story about Diana being set straight about popping into the kitchen (at BP prior to the wedding and i believe it happened again on Brittanica although i could be wrong about the that one)and being told that it wasn't appropriate.

would something like this actually happen(telling her it was inappropriate)? i would think that the average person would be thrilled that a future princess/queen would take the time to come and meet people that run the household.

 

[selrahc4]

As I understand it, a one-time pop-in to meet & greet was fine.

Unexpected frequent appearances made the staff feel uncomfortable.

 

[Duchess]

As I understand it, a one-time pop-in to meet & greet was fine.

Unexpected frequent appearances made the staff feel uncomfortable.

i suppose at first you'd be nervous, but given time i'd think they grow to be more comfortable with it. perhaps not happy...but more comfortable.

 

[RachelD]

Really? Hmm...thinking over it, yes, I can see where it would make them feel uncomfortable. Did she really? I mean, pop in and out of the kitchen just to meet with staff??? Had never heard of that.

 

[Duchess]

Really? Hmm...thinking over it, yes, I can see where it would make them feel uncomfortable. Did she really? I mean, pop in and out of the kitchen just to meet with staff??? Had never heard of that.

i can't remember exactly when it happened (either just before the wedding while she was living at BP or while on honeymoon aboard Britannica). whenever it was she was politely told that it inappropriate.

 

[Duchess]

can anyone enlighten me as to the relationship between servant and master/mistress?

 

[TheTruth]

Did she really? I mean, pop in and out of the kitchen just to meet with staff??? Had never heard of that.

Yes, she did. I think it's in the Sarah Bradford's book, Diana. She was very lonely in BP and Charles was gone most of the time (don't get me wrong, I don't blame him for that). She was borred so she went to meet some of the staff. She often came after tea time and have a chat with a few people there. One person (refered as : "A senior member of the Queen's mother household") wasn't okay with the idea and she had heard about it. One day he came into the kitchen where she was and she said (I have Sarah's book beside me so ) : "You don't approve me being here, do you ?"
"No, Your Royal Highness, I don't. Not at all. This is servants' quarters, you should be in the saloon learning your crafts."

(From Sarah Bradford's book, Diana, all rights reserved lol. Don't want any problems with the law )

I don't think it was an enormous problem that Diana (who wasn't, by the way, already princess) had a little chat with the staff which continued to do the job properly so why being fussy about it ?!

 

[Skydragon]

Apart from anything else, it stops the staff from doing what they are supposed to be doing, it can really delay them and of course it will be the staff that get into trouble when they are late.

It is always wise to keep a distance, however small, between you and your staff. IMO. They would look on you differently, if you are too familiar, how can you respect your employer if you have seen them 'mucking' about in the kitchen or listened to them being indiscreet about others in the household?

 

[ysbel]

I think Stephen Barry mentioned in his book Royal Service that on her honeymoon on the Britannia Diana had the habit of going below decks to the servants quarters and the crew begged her not to bring Charles because if Charles were around, they would have to act formal and on their best behavior.

I don't remember if Barry mentioned anyone disapproving of Diana's actions though I would imagine their bosses might be concerned just for the sake of appearances about the crew spending that much time with Diana by herself on her honeymoon. Other than that the only objection I can see if they feared that the crew would get so comfortable being informal around Diana in private that they would forget and act the same way towards her in public.

However, when Sarah Barnes was Diana's children's nanny, one of the reasons stated for her departure was that Barnes was used to being treated as a family friend at her former family and felt uncomfortable that Diana treated her as a servant.

So its hard to know what to believe.

 

[Skydragon]

I think Stephen Barry mentioned in his book Royal Service that on her honeymoon on the Britannia Diana had the habit of going below decks to the servants quarters and the crew begged her not to bring Charles because if Charles were around, they would have to act formal and on their best behavior.

You do have to wonder where Charles was during all these visits to the servants quarters on board, most honeymoon couples are hard to part. I would say I have not read Barry's book.

I don't remember if Barry mentioned anyone disapproving of Diana's actions though I would imagine their bosses might be concerned just for the sake of appearances about the crew spending that much time with Diana by herself on her honeymoon. Other than that the only objection I can see if they feared that the crew would get so comfortable being informal around Diana in private that they would forget and act the same way towards her in public.

The main worry would be if there was an emergency and as you say appearances.

However, when Sarah Barnes was Diana's children's nanny, one of the reasons stated for her departure was that Barnes was used to being treated as a family friend at her former family and felt uncomfortable that Diana treated her as a servant.

Back to the point I made in the Chronicles thread.

 

[TheTruth]

You do have to wonder where Charles was during all these visits to the servents quarters on board

Perhaps reading some van der Post books

 

[susan alicia]

at least he read books

Perhaps reading some van der Post books

 

[TheTruth]

at least he read books

Could have take a break on his honeymoon don't you think ?

(just kidding )

 

[Duchess]

Apart from anything else, it stops the staff from doing what they are supposed to be doing, it can really delay them and of course it will be the staff that get into trouble when they are late.

It is always wise to keep a distance, however small, between you and your staff. IMO. They would look on you differently, if you are too familiar, how can you respect your employer if you have seen them 'mucking' about in the kitchen or listened to them being indiscreet about others in the household?

of course...i hadn't thought of those things. thanks for the input.

 

[Duchess]

I think Stephen Barry mentioned in his book Royal Service that on her honeymoon on the Britannia Diana had the habit of going below decks to the servants quarters and the crew begged her not to bring Charles because if Charles were around, they would have to act formal and on their best behavior.

I don't remember if Barry mentioned anyone disapproving of Diana's actions though I would imagine their bosses might be concerned just for the sake of appearances about the crew spending that much time with Diana by herself on her honeymoon. Other than that the only objection I can see if they feared that the crew would get so comfortable being informal around Diana in private that they would forget and act the same way towards her in public.

However, when Sarah Barnes was Diana's children's nanny, one of the reasons stated for her departure was that Barnes was used to being treated as a family friend at her former family and felt uncomfortable that Diana treated her as a servant.

So its hard to know what to believe.

that's it...it was the Barry book. thanks.

 

[BeatrixFan]

It's rather like the Government and the Civil Service. Both know that the other one exists but that doesn't mean they ever want to meet or exchange ideas for the better.

 

[CasiraghiTrio]

This is sort of on topic I guess....... I know a guy who was in the household cavalry in the late 90s and he was an equerry to the Duke of Gloucester. But he and Lady Davina kind of...... dated I guess, and the Duke and Duchess didn't like it because it was crossing a line between professional and personal, so he was dismissed. But the relationship with Davina didn't survive the ordeal. But apparently he still left on reasonably good terms, and holds the highest respect for the Gloucesters. He just calls it "not seeing exactly eye to eye" with them. He talks fondly of his experience, brief as it was. He had a room in KP overlooking Princess Margaret's garden, and he knew Paul Burrell, haha.

 

[pinkie40]

-I can count three servants who waited on Diana who wrote books....Stephen Barry (valet to HRH Prince Charles), Wendy Berry (domestic staff at Highrove, her son worked at Buckingham Palace) and Paul Burrell. I guess I could include Patrick Jephson on that list too.

Then there were the massive number of staff who either left of were dismissed during the Diana years....

 

[Jo of Palatine]

-I can count three servants who waited on Diana who wrote books....Stephen Barry (valet to HRH Prince Charles), Wendy Berry (domestic staff at Highrove, her son worked at Buckingham Palace) and Paul Burrell. I guess I could include Patrick Jephson on that list too.

Then there were the massive number of staff who either left of were dismissed during the Diana years....

Didn't that "lady clerk" work during the Diana-years as well?

 

[roseroyal]

Prince William and Harry's grief for their nanny Olga Powell after she died of heart attack aged 82 - Mirror Online
Princes William and Harry mourn the loss of their Nanny | Darren McGrady : The Royal Chef

 

[AdmirerUS]

Prince William and Harry's grief for their nanny Olga Powell after she died of heart attack aged 82 - Mirror Online

What great photos! I love the naughty one - and you know that Catherine got a chuckle at it as well.

 

[Catherine J]

Interesting thread. I came because it was on the recently updated list and I'm having a lazy night with my laptop and my granny's afghan

But ... what I find most compelling is this:

In several other threads I have read on this site discussing Diana's eating disorders and such ... much was made of their being no evidence of them and, in particular, her claims of rampant bulimia episodes during her honeymoon.

Well, "popping into the kitchen" is certainly a sort of evidence, isn't it? I wonder if there is a correlation as this friendliness with kitchen staff seems at odds with other reports of her relationships with general staff.

Just a thought.

 

[olebabs]

I think you are right.

 

[Jacknch]

Like in any job, the last thing you want is your boss popping over constantly to your desk poking his or her nose in! The staff in my household comprise just me and I have to say I do get rather fed up with my partner coming into the kitchen checking on dinner or stirring the pot when it doesn't need it and generally being a nuisance.
It's a tough enough job cooking in a kitchen to then have to stop everything and mind your Ps and Qs whenever a princess decides to drop in un-announced. I wonder whether Diana considered calling down first to see if it was ok.

 

[olebabs]

On the other hand it must be rather annoying not to be able to go to your kitchen when you are feeling hungry without alerting 5 different people. I could be that she didn't want to inconvenience the staff for a cup of coffee.

 

[MARG]

Diana didn't exactly grow up in a 3 roomed bungalow . . . Althrop didn't run itself and the lady of the house didn't "do" the cooking. From her upbringing one would surmise she was au fait with the way servants function in a house and I guess to me it seems she was just plain nosey. She's in a place where she didn't "know" about everything going on. She may have just felt out of the loop. As to wanting a cup of tea? Well I guess there are tea making facilities available in their apartment without sitting down in the kitchen making everyone nervous or over familiar and dying to hear an indiscreet word.

 

[US Royal Watcher]

I read about this incident in the first Stephen Berry book. It's been a while since I read it, but I think Mr. Berry felt Diana visited the kitchen because she was lonely. She was apparently very uncomfortable in her home and didn't feel free to invite old friends over. Charles wasn't there and she wasn't comfortable with his aides. Perhaps she felt that the kitchen staff would be friendly to her. Maybe because Althrop's staff was friendlier.

Mr. Berry described the kitchen as being a mad house, with occasional rough language, and they didn't think it was appropriate for the Princess to appear asking for an apple. They first tried to stock a small refrigerator in her suite with food, but she kept going to the kitchen anyway. The head chef apparently abruptly told her that the kitchen was "his" part of the house and pointed to "her" part of the house. She was apparently pretty upset.

 

[Mermaid1962]

I think that Diana was used to a more relaxed situation regarding the family and the staff. According to various descriptions of her childhood years, it was normal for her to visit the kitchen and talk to the staff. Perhaps she thought that the staff at the royal residences operated the same way. She was apparently relaxed with Stephen Barry until he walked into her bedroom one morning while she was sitting on the bed in her night-dress. I'm not sure whether it was in his own book that he mentioned this.

 

[olebabs]

Imagine not feeling like a visitor in your own home. Can not have helped with the loneliness.

 

[EIIR]

Diana clearly didn't realise the chasm that has to exist in houses like Clarence House between the staff and the royals. It's one of the most realistic aspects of Downton Abbey funnily enough - when one of the Crawley family go downstairs to the servants' quarters, the staff become incredibly uncomfortable, almost resentful because that's 'their' part of the house where they're free to speak and act as they wish.

Branson, the former chauffeur who marries Lady Sybil, is looked upon with suspicion and even a degree of betrayal by his former colleagues. They're not comfortable with him anymore because the clearly defined boundaries have been smudged beyond recognition.