Sex, names, godparents and Duchy of Victoria's and Daniel's second child

[Evangeline_]

This is not a prediction by any means, just what I'd like because Victoria and Daniel seem pretty unpredictable when it comes to names. (I would never have guessed Estelle)

I'm wishing for another girl, princess Alice or princess Lilian.

 

[Meraude]

I have a question for the swedish members here: what does "lilla" exactly mean in swedish? Is the english word for "little/small one"? Because I read a tweet, in which the person wondered if "Lilla" stands for the feminine version of "small" when referring to a baby. Apparently Queen Silvia has reffered to the second child of Victoria as "lilla" and it is not clear whether it means a girl or not.
Tweet:

Interesting tidbit- Queen Silvia has referred to Crown Princess Victorias unborn baby as "Lilla", the feminine form of "the little one"
7 Retweet

Lilla means small, and is usually considered as feminine, while lille is considered masculine, but it's not always true. For example combined with barn (child) or baby it's det lilla barnet, den lilla babyn regardless of sex, the same with stora/store (large, big), it's always det stora barnet. So I wouldn't put any money on a girl just because Silvia said lilla.

 

[Countessmeout]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Lilla isn't just feminine, its neutral? Barnet is a neutral noun, neither masculine or feminine. So when using them in combination, you'd use the neutral adjective, lilla. So while as a nickname, Lilla usually is used for a little girl, it really just means 'the little one' and is gender neutral.

 

[Meraude]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Lilla isn't just feminine, its neutral? Barnet is a neutral noun, neither masculine or feminine. So when using them in combination, you'd use the neutral adjective, lilla. So while as a nickname, Lilla usually is used for a little girl, it really just means 'the little one' and is gender neutral.

Swedish have two grammatical genders, common and neuter, earlier there were also masculine and feminine genders, but today those belong to the common gender, but the distinction between masculine and feminine genders still exists for humans (and pets if the sex is known), and the -a form for adjectives is the one to be used for both common and neuter gender. (Barn is neuter, baby is common gender.)

 

[kathia_sophia]

Sex. I'm hoping for a boy, I love girls, but with a boy they have each.

As for names. If it's a girl maybe Alice, Lilian, Desiree or Ulrika. For a boy I would guess Johan ou Johan Carl/Carl Johan, I love the name! But Victoria and Daniel are unpredictable when it comes to names, so my guesses might be all wrong.

Godparents. Princess Madeleine, Crown Prince Frederik, Crown Princess Mette-Marit, a friend of the couple, and...Daniel's niece Hedvig (I don't know if she old enough to be a godparent, but it would be cute)

 

[LadyFinn]

Godparents. Princess Madeleine, Crown Prince Frederik, Crown Princess Mette-Marit, a friend of the couple, and...Daniel's niece Hedvig (I don't know if she old enough to be a godparent, but it would be cute)

From the website of the Church of Sweden:
Who can be a godparent/sponsor?
The one who is baptized can be a godparent. The person should be baptized in the Swedish Church or another Christian church or community. To be counted as a Christian baptism it should have to be taken place in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and with clean water.
Vanliga frågor med svar - Svenska kyrkan - Dopsajten

There is nothing about age, one just shall be baptized. Hedvig is born in February 1999.

 

[LadyFinn]

Svensk Damtidning speculated last week about the name and claims to know that Victoria had already when she was pregnant with Estelle promised to Carl Johan Bernadotte, that if the child would be a boy, it would be a Carl Johan. So if it will be a boy this time, a lot of speaks for that it will be called Carl Johan. Also Olof, which has connection to Daniel and Olle, and Oscar and Eugen could be choices.
If the baby is a girl, most likely Alice will be one of the names. Both Victoria's grandmothers had Alice in their names, and Alice Trolle-Wachtmeister has always been important person for Victoria. Royal names Josephine and Märtha could be there also. Swedish princess Märtha became the queen of Norway, and Victoria's friend Märtha Louise could be one of the godparents. Kristina could be also one of the names, according to SD, because it is one of the names of Ewa Westling and many strong women in the royal history have had it, like the queen's sister.

About the duchy, the baby will be a child of a queen. The king will give a big and important duchy to the baby. Much speaks about that it will be Öland, which means so much for the royal family. Besides, Öland hasn't had a duke since Karl X Gustav. The king could also choose a duchy which has never had a duke, like he did with Nicolas. Maybe it would be the beautiful Bohuslän. And Västerbotten is one hot tip, prince Gustaf Adolf and princess Sibylla were the duke and duchess of Västerbotten, and maybe the king wants to pay homage to them by giving the baby Västerbotten as a duchy.

 

[Countessmeout]

Svensk Damtidning speculated last week about the name and claims to know that Victoria had already when she was pregnant with Estelle promised to Carl Johan Bernadotte, that if the child would be a boy, it would be a Carl Johan. So if it will be a boy this time, a lot of speaks for that it will be called Carl Johan. Also Olof, which has connection to Daniel and Olle, and Oscar and Eugen could be choices.
If the baby is a girl, most likely Alice will be one of the names. Both Victoria's grandmothers had Alice in their names, and Alice Trolle-Wachtmeister has always been important person for Victoria. Royal names Josephine and Märtha could be there also. Swedish princess Märtha became the queen of Norway, and Victoria's friend Märtha Louise could be one of the godparents. Kristina could be also one of the names, according to SD, because it is one of the names of Ewa Westling and many strong women in the royal history have had it, like the queen's sister.

About the duchy, the baby will be a child of a queen. The king will give a big and important duchy to the baby. Much speaks about that it will be Öland, which means so much for the royal family. Besides, Öland hasn't had a duke since Karl X Gustav. The king could also choose a duchy which has never had a duke, like he did with Nicolas. Maybe it would be the beautiful Bohuslän. And Västerbotten is one hot tip, prince Gustaf Adolf and princess Sibylla were the duke and duchess of Västerbotten, and maybe the king wants to pay homage to them by giving the baby Västerbotten as a duchy.

I believe you mean the king's sister. Silvia only has brothers

Kristina and Anna were both top contenders for Estelle because they are both names found in both family trees. Since neither were used for Estelle, a good chance one may be used. If Martha Louise is a godmother, I could see Martha as the last of four names, like Mary for Estelle. I am still not convinced another Norweigan royal will be used as Vic has a lot of people she was godmother to kids of that she could honor.

Carl Johan died a few months after Estelle was born, but I guess he didn't die suddenly so it is plausible it was a conversation that they had. I still highly suspect that the two grandfathers will be included, but I guess Carl would be an honor to the king as well.

Could choose Duke/Duchess of Dalarna for Carl Johan.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

I think we will get a "name surprise" once again.

I hope for a northern duchy this time like Norrbotten. If they choose Öland i guess they will combine it with the neighbour Småland as Öland is a very small island. The last person born Duke of Småland was "the Mainau Prince" Count Lennart Bernadotte of Wisborg who was very close to the Royal family.

 

[Countessmeout]

Vasterbotten would give us a Northern one and honor the king's parents

Jamtland was CG's title before he came to the throne. Norbotten and Lapland would be the two northern provinces never to have a duke. There are six provinces that haven't had one.

It would be nice for Vasterbotten or Halland, but I have a feeling if they bestow Halland so soon, it will be on CP's child.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Västerbotten would be a nice tribute to the "former Haga Coulpe" Gustaf Adolf and Sibylla.

We'll see if it will be used. I guess it it is an emotional thing for C-G as they were his parents who both died way to young.

I doubt Halland will be used so soon again after Bertils and Lilians deaths.

Yes Carl Gustaf was (and still is) Duke of Jämtland. The interesting thing is that he seems to have been the first Duke of Jämtland ever.

 

[Marty91charmed]

I have to say that my curiosity is more about that duchy this baby will got that than his/her names. Duchies are so fascinating to me.

 

[kathia_sophia]

Please help, how many provinces has Sweden? Which ones had/have a duchy? Which one never did?

 

[Countessmeout]

Please help, how many provinces has Sweden? Which ones had/have a duchy? Which one never did?

There are 25 historical provinces of Sweden. They no longer hold any actual administrative role any more (counties have replaced them). Of the 25 historical provinces, six have never had a duke. Nicolas' duchy never had before him.

The six that have never:
Lapland
Bohuslan
Harjedalan
Blekinge
Medelpad
Norbotten

The ones with dukes:
Vastergotland (Vik and Dan)
Ostergotland (Estelle)
Varmland (CP/Sofia)
Haslingland (Maddie)
Gastrikland (Maddie)
Gotland (Leo)
Angermanland (Nico)

That leaves 12 which have been used but aren't currently:
Dalarna- Last held by Carl Johan
Dalsland- last held by Carl Magnus back in the 1500's
Halland- last held by Lilian and Bertil
Jamtland- CG's title before he took the crown
Narke- last held by Prince Eugen
Oland- last held by Charles X Gustav before he became king
Scania- last held by King Gustav Adolph before he was king
Smaland- last held by Prince Lennart
Sodermanland- Last held by prince Willem
Upland: last held by Prince Sigvard
Vastmanland: last held by Prince Eric
Vasterbotten: the title of CG's parents

There were also the Duchies of Stegeborg and Swealand but neither in modern times.

 

[Cris M]

Västerbotten would be a nice tribute to the "former Haga Coulpe" Gustaf Adolf and Sibylla.

We'll see if it will be used. I guess it it is an emotional thing for C-G as they were his parents who both died way to young.

I doubt Halland will be used so soon again after Bertils and Lilians deaths.

Yes Carl Gustaf was (and still is) Duke of Jämtland. The interesting thing is that he seems to have been the first Duke of Jämtland ever.

Don't you think the Duchy of Halland can be given to Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia's child, given how close Prince Carl Philip was to Prince Bertil and Princess Lilian?

 

[Countessmeout]

Don't you think the Duchy of Halland can be given to Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia's child, given how close Prince Carl Philip was to Prince Bertil and Princess Lilian?

Victoria was also very close to her Aunt and Uncle. May avoid it for length of time and also choosing which child to give it to.


Or an option: Vic and Dan's could be Vasterbotten, in honor of her grandparents. Her and Dan are the modern Haga couple, and even if a spare, it would be fitting. And CP/Sofia's could have Halland. Then both babies would get the significant emotionally important title for their baby.

 

[polyesco]

There are 25 historical provinces of Sweden. They no longer hold any actual administrative role any more (counties have replaced them). Of the 25 historical provinces, six have never had a duke. Nicolas' duchy never had before him.

The six that have never:
Lapland
Bohuslan
Harjedalan
Blekinge
Medelpad
Norbotten

The ones with dukes:
Vastergotland (Vik and Dan)
Ostergotland (Estelle)
Varmland (CP/Sofia)
Haslingland (Maddie)
Gastrikland (Maddie)
Gotland (Leo)
Angermanland (Nico)

That leaves 12 which have been used but aren't currently:
Dalarna- Last held by Carl Johan
Dalsland- last held by Carl Magnus back in the 1500's
Halland- last held by Lilian and Bertil
Jamtland- CG's title before he took the crown
Narke- last held by Prince Eugen
Oland- last held by Charles X Gustav before he became king
Scania- last held by King Gustav Adolph before he was king
Smaland- last held by Prince Lennart
Sodermanland- Last held by prince Willem
Upland: last held by Prince Sigvard
Vastmanland: last held by Prince Eric
Vasterbotten: the title of CG's parents

There were also the Duchies of Stegeborg and Swealand but neither in modern times.

thank you very much for this informative post

 

[Cris M]

Victoria was also very close to her Aunt and Uncle. They may avoid using it instead of choosing which child to use it for, as well as how recently Lilian has passed.

I'm sure she was. Prince Bertil and Princess Lilian probably acted as surrogate grandparents to the three royal children, but I always had the impression that Prince Carl Philip was the closest to them, though I may be wrong.

 

[JR76]

Svealand is out of the question as a duchy since it's not a province per se but one of the three lands that make up Sweden together with Götaland and Norrland. The kingdom of Svealand is the core out of which Sweden grew so it would be like making prince Harry duke of England.

Stegeborg on the other hand was named after the castle of Stegeborg and was a title (and fief) awarded to a collateral branch of the House of Pfalz-Zweibrücken that reigned in Sweden 1654-1720. The first duke was the father of King Karl X Gustav. The branch ruled in their own rights as dukes of Kleeburg and went extinct in 1748. Having a territorial designation added to your noble title was standard in Sweden at the time as seen in f ex Axel Oxenstierna, Count of Södermöre, Per Brahe, Count of Visingsborg, Magnus Gabriel De La Gardie, Count of Läckö (married to Marie Euphrosyne, daughter to the first duke of Stegeborg) etc... so the title Duke of Stegeborg should be seen as a noble title instead of a royal title. Since it's neither a royal title or a province I'd say it's totally out of the question.


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[Madame Verseau]

Although the press is ginned up for the royal births, at the end of the day these two babies coming are not equal. One is a child of a future sovereign; the other is the child of a successor far from the throne. Because of the ranks of their parents the children will be treated differently.

Carl Johan would be a wonderful name for a prince/duke, mix in Olle in honor of Daniel's father.

The duchy - this baby is a child of a future queen so he (pulling for a boy) would get prime ducal real estate. Carl Gustaf may turn over the duchy of Jamtland to the baby since the sovereign never carried over the ducal once he ascends to the throne (well in the past). That would be a surprise.

Godparents - foreign royal is a good bet. Mette Marit because she and Victoria are close but I didn't know Victoria was close to Martha Louise of Norway.

 

[Countessmeout]

Foreign royal I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Mathilde/Philippe, Gui/Steph, Pavlos/Marie Chantal. Maybe 1 or 2 of them. Vic is godmother to Eleanor of Belgium and one of the Greek kids, and her Guillaume have been said to be close. And since the Norweigans have already been honored, would think they may look at other royal houses. Could be wrong.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Although the press is ginned up for the royal births, at the end of the day these two babies coming are not equal. One is a child of a future sovereign; the other is the child of a successor far from the throne. Because of the ranks of their parents the children will be treated differently.

Carl Johan would be a wonderful name for a prince/duke, mix in Olle in honor of Daniel's father.

The duchy - this baby is a child of a future queen so he (pulling for a boy) would get prime ducal real estate. Carl Gustaf may turn over the duchy of Jamtland to the baby since the sovereign never carried over the ducal once he ascends to the throne (well in the past). That would be a surprise.

Godparents - foreign royal is a good bet. Mette Marit because she and Victoria are close but I didn't know Victoria was close to Martha Louise of Norway.

Duke of Jämtland is Carl Gustafs title for lifetime. That title does not revert to the crown upon accession in Sweden like it does in UK so it can't be created again until Carl Gustaf is dead.

Duke of Skåne, a title last held by the former King Gustaf VI Adolf is a possibility.

There will likely be one, maybe even two foreign royals as godparents. Victoria and Märtha-Louise are very close friends since childhood so M-L is definitely a possibility

 

[Meraude]

If looking geographically, Bohuslän and Dalsland borders the duchy of Västergötland, so either or both would be a good choice for Victoria and Daniel's child.

 

[Countessmeout]

So do Smaland, Narke and Halland. Smaland borders both Ostgergotland and Vastergotland (so both Vic and Estelle). Dasland and Narke would both be good choices for CP as well, for along with Dalarna and Vastmanland, they border his.

 

[Meraude]

So do Smaland, Narke and Halland. Smaland borders both Ostgergotland and Vastergotland (so both Vic and Estelle).

Yes, but one reason why I would prefer Bohuslän is that it have never been a royal duchy (and I grew up there ) and today there are no longer any independent counties of Bohuslän or Dalsland, as they are now a part of the larger region of Västra Götaland, and the main part of Västra Götaland is the former county of Västergötland, so a duke/duchess of Bohuslän and/or Dalsland would literally end up next to his/her mother. To have a duchy of Bohuslän och Dalsland would be quite natural, as the region was often referred to as Bohuslän-Dal(sland) while I grew up. A generation or two in the future, few will remember or care that there have been a county named Bohuslän and a county named Dalsland, it will only be Västra Götaland = Västergötland.http://www.theroyalforums.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Countessmeout]

Neither Oland or Angermanland border either of Madeleine's provinces, so it isn't a given that like Estelle, this baby's territory will be close to Vic's.

 

[JR76]

There's no prerequisite that a new duchy has to border the duchy off the appointees parent.

 

[Tilia C.]

This poll has been closed. We will very soon know if Victoria's and Daniels 2nd child is a boy or a girl.

 

[Lumutqueen]

It's a boy! Congrats on the voters.

 

[Countessmeout]

Any final guess on the name now we know its a boy, before tomorrow???

I am really wondering if Johan will be included. There was speculation before they would use it in honor of Carl Johan. Perhaps a double reason considering the passing of Victoria's Uncle today, Johann Georg.