Prince Gustav, Princess Carina of Berleburg and Family, Current Events 3, June 2022 -

[Tatiana Maria]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CwaGsRBNnmK/

Thank you for sharing the announcement from the Danish Royal House! That answers my question about whether Gustav and Carina's use of "Hereditary Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein" for their son on the invitation was a one-off, since their son is only called "Prince of Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg" here.

The announcement actually refers to Prince Franz-Albrecht and Prince Carl-Anton as Highness, rather than Royal Highness. Can anyone identify which family Carl-Anton belongs to? (ETA: Thank you to Adda for identifying Franz-Albrecht.) Note that the German predicates of Hoheit and Durchlaucht are both translated into Danish as Højhed (Highness), whereas English speakers would ordinarily translate Durchlaucht as Serene Highness.

Could the Danish speakers explain the difference between "faddere" and "gudforældre", which are both translated into English as "godparents"?

Hans Højhed Prins Gustav Albrecht zu Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg blev i dag døbt i kapellet på Berleburg Slot.

Prinsen, der er søn af Deres Højheder Prins Gustav og Prinsesse Carina zu-Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg, har seks faddere, som familien fremover betegner som Prinsens gudforældre. De er Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Christian, Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Theodora af Grækenland, Ellen Hillingsø, Arabella Gaggero, Hans Højhed Prins Franz-Albrecht samt Hans Højhed Prins Carl-Anton.

Til stede ved dåbshandlingen var fra den kongelige familie ud over Prins Christian også Kronprinsparret og dåbsbarnets farmor, Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Benedikte.

 

[Stefan]

The announcement actually refers to Prince Franz-Albrecht and Prince Carl-Anton as Highness, rather than Royal Highness. Can anyone identify which family Carl-Anton belongs to? (ETA: Thank you to Adda for identifying Franz-Albrecht.) Note that the German predicates of Hoheit and Durchlaucht are both translated into Danish as Højhed (Highness), whereas English speakers would ordinarily translate Durchlaucht as Serene Highness.

Carl-Anton is the Hereditary Prince of Waldeck-Pyrmont and those a Durchlaucht (Serene Highness) the same as Hereditary Prince Franz Albrecht and the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburgs.

 

[RoyalNight]

https://www.siegener-zeitung.de/lok...a-bekannt-ist-K2GNYSKT5BHMTK42Q7YDHK7MVM.html


Martin Völkel of the Siegener Zeitung reports that the couple remained in the United States for some weeks after the birth of Gustav Albrecht and returned to Bad Berleburg around a month ago.

If the math is correct, the family remained in the United States for approximately two months after the birth. Can any knowledgeable members explain what that signifies in terms of the procedures the couple might be following to register themselves as his legal parents under German law?

Maybe the stay was mostly due to the baby’s age? I’m not sure if newborns can fly. Especially such a long flight.

 

[suztav]

Maybe the stay was mostly due to the baby’s age? I’m not sure if newborns can fly. Especially such a long flight.

Newborns in the states receive a series
Of vaccines. Having said that … I’m not too sure at how many weeks or months.

 

[suztav]

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/by-age/newborn-birth.html

 

[polyesco]

Lovely to see Christian as a godparent. The connection of the next generation will continue.
The picture of Benedikte with her grandson is beautiful.

 

[hereditarytitles]

https://familytreesurrogacy.com/blo...To put it simply, a,a vital part of surrogacy.

I tried to find details about how German Law handles surrogate births in the USA and found the above mentioned source. That explains why they chose to let the child be born in California. In most other countries it is more complicated, because the child is genetically considered the child of the surrogate mother and has to be adopted later. There are quite a few lawfirms in Germany who specialize in helping such parents.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Maybe the stay was mostly due to the baby’s age? I’m not sure if newborns can fly. Especially such a long flight.

Checking the websites of the two largest US commercial airlines, American Airlines and United Airlines, both allow infants over 7 days old to travel on their flights, so it seems there must be another reason.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Wow! Prince Christian's first godchild. Nice to see Franz-Albrecht, Hereditary Prince of Oettingen-Spielberg, amongst the godparents. I'm always moved to see Prince Carl-Anton. German nobles should always support each other.

He’s friends with them (Oettingen) and they were at the wedding. But Gustav isn’t really close to most of the nobility apart from a few select families.

 

[Adda]

He’s friends with them (Oettingen) and they were at the wedding. But Gustav isn’t really close to most of the nobility apart from a few select families.

Thanks for the info. Franz-Albrecht and his wife recently moved to Spain, they seem to be very social but I didn't know they were friends with Gustav.

 

[JR76]

Thanks for the info. Franz-Albrecht and his wife recently moved to Spain, they seem to be very social but I didn't know they were friends with Gustav.

Judging by social media Carina and Cleopatra have been good friends for years.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Judging by social media Carina and Cleopatra have been good friends for years.

Yes they have been good friends and Cleopatra was at their wedding.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Thanks for the info. Franz-Albrecht and his wife recently moved to Spain, they seem to be very social but I didn't know they were friends with Gustav.

Cleopatra supported them getting married because in an instagram story regarding the wedding she put in a caption “love wins”. I think particularly Carina and Cleopatra are close . Franz owns a finca in Spain

 

[SLV]

Checking the websites of the two largest US commercial airlines, American Airlines and United Airlines, both allow infants over 7 days old to travel on their flights, so it seems there must be another reason.

Well, what airlines allow and what (new) parents feel comfortable with are two very different things.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

https://familytreesurrogacy.com/blo...To put it simply, a,a vital part of surrogacy.

I tried to find details about how German Law handles surrogate births in the USA and found the above mentioned source. That explains why they chose to let the child be born in California. In most other countries it is more complicated, because the child is genetically considered the child of the surrogate mother and has to be adopted later. There are quite a few lawfirms in Germany who specialize in helping such parents.

Thank you for the link. I would say they had the surrogate mother give birth to the child in America simply because surrogacy arrangements are illegal in Germany. The sort of contract described in the link would be legally unrecognized in Germany for ethical reasons, even if it is legally valid in California.

See this German Federal Foreign Office page (first shared by Elizaveta):
https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/visa-service/buergerservice/faq/-/606860

Information on surrogacy

Surrogacy contracts in which a woman declares her readiness to undergo artifical or natural insemination or to have an embryo, which is not hers, transferred to her or to carry a baby otherwise to the full term are viewed as unethical and therefore treated as void in Germany. Pursuant to the Embryo Protection Act and the Adoption Placement Act, the activities performed by those arranging surrogate mothers and by physicians in connection with surrogacy are punishable offences. Under German law, the woman who commissions a child in such a way (commissioning mother) is not the mother of the child. The mother of the child is the woman who gave birth ot him/her, that is, the surrogate mother and not the commissioning mother.

Therefore, the recognition of a commissioning mother as the legal mother would as a rule lead to an outcome which is incompatible with essential principles of German law insofar as the case has a link to Germany. For this reason, German authorities cannot recognize the maternity of a commissioning mother even if a foreign birth certificate confirms her as the ostensible mother. The husband of the commissioning mother cannot claim paternity based on his marriage because he is not married to the mother of the child.

As the children of surrogate mothers are not in the cited cases related to the commissioning parents in the legal sense, they do not attain German citizenship through birth. In such cases, the foreign missions are unable to issue the children with German passports!

Travelling with the children from their home country to Germany is not permissible without the relevant identification papers.

For the aforementioned reasons, a family reunufication bringing a child born of a surrogate mother abroad to the commissioning parents in Germany is not possible under the Residence Act.

 

[kalnel]

He’s friends with them (Oettingen) and they were at the wedding. But Gustav isn’t really close to most of the nobility apart from a few select families.

Really? How do you know that?

 

[Adda]

Thanks to Cleopatra we also know what kind of fiiine port was served.

https://instagram.com/stories/cleo_...e=ig_story_item_share&igshid=ODk2MDJkZDc2Zg==

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Really? How do you know that?

Cleopatra posted on her instagram stories about the wedding a while ago. Gustav doesn’t really interact most of the nobility or attend their weddings apart from a few families that he’s close to.

 

[camelot23ca]

Thank you for the link. I would say they had the surrogate mother give birth to the child in America simply because surrogacy arrangements are illegal in Germany. The sort of contract described in the link would be legally unrecognized in Germany for ethical reasons, even if it is legally valid in California.

See this German Federal Foreign Office page (first shared by Elizaveta):
https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/visa-service/buergerservice/faq/-/606860

So based on the prior description of surrogacy law in California, and the info above from the German foreign office, it seems that at least Carina, and possibly Gustav, would have had to formally adopt the baby in the US to be recognized as his legal parent(s) in Germany and obtain a German passport for him?

 

[Prinsara]

Even when adopted, I don't think you can renounce US citizenship for a minor. Gustav Albrecht will have to decide if he wants to keep that or not when he is an adult, or at least when he is a bit older.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

So based on the prior description of surrogacy law in California, and the info above from the German foreign office, it seems that at least Carina, and possibly Gustav, would have had to formally adopt the baby in the US to be recognized as his legal parent(s) in Germany and obtain a German passport for him?

In most cases, yes. See this OHCHR report:

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Issues/Children/SR/Surrogacy/States/Germany.docx

German law distinguishes two different situations:
(1) Recognition of foreign decisions on parentage under section 108 and 109 of the Law on procedure in family cases (FamFG), and
(2) Establishment of parentage via determination of the applicable legal system and parentage under that system.

(1):
If the child is genetically related to at least one of the intended parents, according to the jurisprudence of the Federal Supreme Court (BGH) a foreign judicial decision on parentage will generally be recognized under section 108 para 1 FamFG. [...]
As yet, there has been no decision of the Supreme Court in cases where the child is not genetically related to either of the intended parents.

(2):
If the parentage is established by a decision of a foreign authority, which is not a judicial decision (e.g. entry in the birth register), such a decision will not be recognized under section 108 FamFG. In such cases, the applicable legal system is to be determined by the rules of international private law. If the applicable law does not allow the assignment of the parentage to the intended parents (e.g. if German law is applicable), the only way for the intended parents to establish parentage is adoption.

Also see this Global Legal Monitor report regarding a decision of the German Supreme Court in a comparable case:

https://www.loc.gov/item/global-leg...stice-rules-on-legal-motherhood-of-surrogate/

The plaintiffs are a married couple living in Germany with German citizenship. In 2015, an egg from the wife that had been fertilized with her husband’s sperm was transferred to a Ukrainian surrogate in Ukraine. The surrogate bore the child in December 2015 in Kiev, Ukraine. Before the child was born, the husband acknowledged paternity of the child at the German Embassy in Kiev with the consent of the surrogate. After the birth, the surrogate testified in front of a notary public that the child was born by means of reproductive technologies via surrogacy and that the plaintiffs were the genetic parents. The civil registry in Ukraine registered the plaintiffs as parents and issued a birth certificate. (BGH paras. 2 & 3.)

[...]

German law provides that only the woman who bears the child can be regarded as the legal mother. [...] Surrogacy agreements are not legally valid in Germany as they violate the Embryo Protection Act and are seen by the courts as contrary to morality.

[...]

The Federal Court of Justice held that German law must be applied to determine the legal parentage of the child in the case in question. (BGH para. 15.) German conflict-of-law rules provide that the parentage of a child is governed by the law of the place where the child habitually resides, by the law of the country of his or her parents’ nationality, or by the law that governs the general effects of the marriage of the parents. [...] In the opinion of the Court, as the child never had his habitual residence in Ukraine, only the surrogate could be registered as the legal mother and not the wife. (BGH paras. 27 & 28.) The Court concluded that the wife must adopt the child in order to become its legal mother. (Id. at 28.)

My understanding of the above is:

If Carina was recognized in the United States as legal mother of Gustav Albrecht based on California or US law, or based on an agreement with the surrogate mother, then the US recognition will not be transferrable to Germany. Carina will need to adopt Gustav Albrecht in order to become his legal mother in Germany.

If Carina obtained a judge's ruling in the United States naming her as Gustav Albrecht's legal mother, there may be a chance of that ruling being recognized in Germany.

Even when adopted, I don't think you can renounce US citizenship for a minor. Gustav Albrecht will have to decide if he wants to keep that or not when he is an adult, or at least when he is a bit older.

Assuming Carina has not lost or renounced her Swedish citizenship, will Gustav Albrecht inherit it? He would have if she had given birth to him, but I haven't looked into how Swedish citizenship law regards surrogate births.

 

[suztav]

I have to believe that Gustav and Carina have had significant legal counsel on these issues.

 

[rominet09]

I have to believe that Gustav and Carina have had significant legal counsel on these issues.

Absolutely but they don't have to share the details with us !

 

[suztav]

Absolutely but they don't have to share the details with us !

Exactly my point! [emoji41]

 

[shastalucie]

It’s interesting when the law has to catch up to medical advances. I hope for a sibling or two, which IMO is important when the child is of older parents.

 

[kalnel]

Cleopatra posted on her instagram stories about the wedding a while ago. Gustav doesn’t really interact most of the nobility or attend their weddings apart from a few families that he’s close to.

But again, how do you know he doesn't interact with them?

 

[Stefanie]

Carl-Anton is the Hereditary Prince of Waldeck-Pyrmont and those a Durchlaucht (Serene Highness) the same as Hereditary Prince Franz Albrecht and the Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburgs.

Is he the gentleman in the wheelchair? What happened to him?

 

[Countessmeout]

Is he the gentleman in the wheelchair? What happened to him?

He was in a swimming accident ten years ago. Smashed vertibrae when he hit rocks.

Eurohistory: Waldeck-Pyrmont: Recovery of the Hereditary Prince Ongoing

 

[hereditarytitles]

Thank you for the link. I would say they had the surrogate mother give birth to the child in America simply because surrogacy arrangements are illegal in Germany. The sort of contract described in the link would be legally unrecognized in Germany for ethical reasons, even if it is legally valid in California.

See this German Federal Foreign Office page (first shared by Elizaveta):
https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/en/visa-service/buergerservice/faq/-/606860

That is correct, but as I read in the homepage of a lawfirm specializing in surrogacy it says among other facts which are all in German (sorry, too much to translate complicated legal texts) but here is the link

https://www.rosepartner.de/leihmutter-kalifornien-usa-rechtsanwalt.html

The important passage that I translated:

"Above all, however, it is the legal situation that favors surrogacy in California. Through a Californian pre-birth court decision (pre-birth order), intended German parents obtain legal parental status that is also to be recognized in Germany. Adoption is no longer required"

This is why I assumed that they chose the California option, as it is well known that all other countries where surrogacy is allowed, the child would have been to be adopted in Germany later.

It is just my curiosity why I did some research. As others wrote here it is their private decision and I am also sure that they had the best legal advice possible.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

That is correct, but as I read in the homepage of a lawfirm specializing in surrogacy it says among other facts which are all in German (sorry, too much to translate complicated legal texts) but here is the link

https://www.rosepartner.de/leihmutter-kalifornien-usa-rechtsanwalt.html

The important passage that I translated:

"Above all, however, it is the legal situation that favors surrogacy in California. Through a Californian pre-birth court decision (pre-birth order), intended German parents obtain legal parental status that is also to be recognized in Germany. Adoption is no longer required"

This is why I assumed that they chose the California option, as it is well known that all other countries where surrogacy is allowed, the child would have been to be adopted in Germany later.

It is just my curiosity why I did some research. As others wrote here it is their private decision and I am also sure that they had the best legal advice possible.

Thanks! So the pre-birth order is in fact a judicial decision, making it eligible for recognition in Germany, as per the OHCHR report quoted above.

(To be honest, even after reading the report, I still don't quite understand the rationale behind foreign court decisions on parentage being recognizable in Germany while parentage registrations under foreign laws are not.)