New title for Princess Anne?

[Kataryn]

I just read in the Guardian (yes, there!) that people are speculating about a new raise in rank through a new title for the Princess Royal. They wrote:

"While there is speculation that the Queen’s second-eldest child and only daughter may get an elevated title in addition to her title as Princess Royal, her importance in the court of Charles is assured."

From: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...inent-role-in-support-of-brother-king-charles



Hm... What do you think?

 

[Sionevar]

Perhaps Charles is going to make her Duchess of Edinburgh!

 

[Sister Morphine]

She already has the highest title a princess of the blood can carry, I believe. Even if Charles were to create her the Duchess of Wherever in her own right, "The Princess Royal" would outrank it. Just like William is still the Duke of Cambridge, but "Prince of Wales" outranks it.

 

[Sister Morphine]

Perhaps Charles is going to make her Duchess of Edinburgh!

No, it was decided long ago that the Earl of Wessex would be the Duke of Edinburgh after the title merged with the crown. It was the desire of both QEII and Prince Philip.

 

[Sunnystar]

He could very well make her a Duchess in her own right. I'd appreciate that as a way of signifying his commitment to equal primogeniture as well as her years of loyal service to the Crown.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

She already has the highest title a princess of the blood can carry, I believe. Even if Charles were to create her the Duchess of Wherever in her own right, "The Princess Royal" would outrank it. Just like William is still the Duke of Cambridge, but "Prince of Wales" outranks it.

Regardless of whether her current title would take precedence, it would be a very big honour. If Charles conferred a dukedom on her, would it not make her the first woman in the BRF to have a dukedom created for her? If not at least the first in several centuries.

 

[Blog Real]

But wasn't Princess Anne offered an earldom when she married Mark Phillips? and she and Mark Phillips turned it down?

 

[Sionevar]

Regardless of whether her current title would take precedence, it would be a very big honour. If Charles conferred a dukedom on her, would it not make her the first woman in the BRF to have a dukedom created for her? If not at least the first in several centuries.

The last example I can find is the dukedom of Norfolk being given to Margaret, Countess of Norfolk in 1397. She was the grand-daughter of Edward I by his second marriage to Margaret of France, so I suppose that counts as being a member of the royal family, albeit the English one instead of the British one.

Other dukedoms have been given to illegal wives (Inverness), mistresses (various), illegitimate sons (various) and wives of illegitimate sons (Buccleuch).

 

[Sister Morphine]

But wasn't Princess Anne offered an earldom when she married Mark Phillips? and she and Mark Phillips turned it down?

He was offered an earldom and turned it down. He didn't want one, and they didn't want their children to grow up titled, even if it would be just Lord/Lady.

 

[Prinsara]

He was offered an earldom and turned it down. He didn't want one, and they didn't want their children to grow up titled, even if it would be just Lord/Lady.

But if Anne gets a title now, won't Peter and Zara get what she didn't want for them as children?

 

[tommy100]

Hmmm - odd one this. I'd love Anne to get something for recognition of all her service to the Crown - remember Andrew, Edward and Sophie only took up full time royal duties in 2002 in the Golden Jubilee Year. Anne has been doing them much longer.

That said, if she had a title that meant her children also got titles that might be rather problematic if other suggestions of what King Charles might do regarding titles turn out to be true - taking titles from some while giving Zara and Peter titles would be awkward. Also, I'm not sure what title Anne could get that would be meaningful beyond 'Duchess of Edinburgh' - her father (and therefore also her mother's) title, but that has been promised to Edward. I don't think Anne would accept knowing it was meant for Edward.

 

[Kataryn]

She already has the highest title a princess of the blood can carry, I believe. Even if Charles were to create her the Duchess of Wherever in her own right, "The Princess Royal" would outrank it. Just like William is still the Duke of Cambridge, but "Prince of Wales" outranks it.

I'm not so sure about that. There is the king/queen regnant, then there are the peers. And anyone who is not the souvereign or a peer is a commoner. Even the Princess Royal, as this is not a title of the peerage. So if Charles created her the Duchess of Edinburgh eg (which makes more sense than to create it for Edward as she is the eldest child to be able to become the holder of that ducal title when we talk about gender equality), I guess she would still be called HRH The Princess Royal and then The Duchess of Edinburgh after it, but the title of a Royal Duchess in her own right as it's a peerage would outrank the Princess title which only depicts the eldest daughter of a souvereign, but not a peeress. IMHO, of course.

 

[samitude]

Except on very rare occasions, titles aren't passed through the females. Even if Anne were given a title, her children still wouldn't. Are you thinking of a title like Lady Mountbatten's?

 

[Sunnystar]

Hmmm - odd one this. I'd love Anne to get something for recognition of all her service to the Crown - remember Andrew, Edward and Sophie only took up full time royal duties in 2002 in the Golden Jubilee Year. Anne has been doing them much longer.

That said, if she had a title that meant her children also got titles that might be rather problematic if other suggestions of what King Charles might do regarding titles turn out to be true - taking titles from some while giving Zara and Peter titles would be awkward. Also, I'm not sure what title Anne could get that would be meaningful beyond 'Duchess of Edinburgh' - her father (and therefore also her mother's) title, but that has been promised to Edward. I don't think Anne would accept knowing it was meant for Edward.

Well, presuming that Anne was given a secondary earldom and tertiary baronetcy, Peter would be given the courtesy title of the earldom. Zara would be styled as the daughter of a duke/duchess, and thus become "Lady Zara Tindall."

If the rumor is correct about removing the HRHs for those outside the direct line, then that would put all of the grandchildren on equal footing as they're all children of a duke/duchess - Lady Beatrice Mapelli Mozzi, Lady Eugenie Brooksbank, Lady Louise Windsor-Mountbatten, Viscount Severn, and (whether they/their parents choose to be known by these titles or not) Earl of Dumbarton & Lady Lilibet Windsor-Mountbatten.

I agree, though, that I can't see Anne accepting Edinburgh when she knows it was her parents wish that it go to Edward.

 

[Somebody]

Hmmm - odd one this. I'd love Anne to get something for recognition of all her service to the Crown - remember Andrew, Edward and Sophie only took up full time royal duties in 2002 in the Golden Jubilee Year. Anne has been doing them much longer.

She did receive that honour. In 1987 she was made The Princess Royal.

That said, if she had a title that meant her children also got titles that might be rather problematic if other suggestions of what King Charles might do regarding titles turn out to be true - taking titles from some while giving Zara and Peter titles would be awkward. Also, I'm not sure what title Anne could get that would be meaningful beyond 'Duchess of Edinburgh' - her father (and therefore also her mother's) title, but that has been promised to Edward. I don't think Anne would accept knowing it was meant for Edward.

If Anne was given a Dukedom (which I don't expect to happen), Peter would receive her subsidiary title as his courtesy title (Earl X) and Zara would become Lady Zara Tindall. Although, they could decide to keep going by the names they use now, just like Harry's children aren't using the courtesy title and style they are entitled to.

I'm not so sure about that. There is the king/queen regnant, then there are the peers. And anyone who is not the souvereign or a peer is a commoner. Even the Princess Royal, as this is not a title of the peerage. So if Charles created her the Duchess of Edinburgh eg (which makes more sense than to create it for Edward as she is the eldest child to be able to become the holder of that ducal title when we talk about gender equality), I guess she would still be called HRH The Princess Royal and then The Duchess of Edinburgh after it, but the title of a Royal Duchess in her own right as it's a peerage would outrank the Princess title which only depicts the eldest daughter of a souvereign, but not a peeress. IMHO, of course.

The fact that the former Duke of Edinburgh specifically wanted his son Edward, who is also heavily involved in the Duke of Edinburgh awards - unlike his sister who does other meaningful things - to receive this title and that it was communicated as something that the Duke, the late queen and the current king agreed upon is completely irrelevant to you?

Except on very rare occasions, titles aren't passed through the females. Even if Anne were given a title, her children still wouldn't. Are you thinking of a title like Lady Mountbatten's?

In cases when a female has/is given a title in her own right it is definitely passed on to her heirs. In this case, that would be Peter (and depending on the remainder it might stop after that or if it includes the option of female inheritage to Savannah or her (male) descendants). However, that would be a little weird if that same exception wouldn't be made for Beatrice.

So, it makes much more sense to leave things as is and adopt any changes only to those born after the equal succession was introduced.

 

[Kataryn]

Hmmm - odd one this. I'd love Anne to get something for recognition of all her service to the Crown - remember Andrew, Edward and Sophie only took up full time royal duties in 2002 in the Golden Jubilee Year. Anne has been doing them much longer.

That said, if she had a title that meant her children also got titles that might be rather problematic if other suggestions of what King Charles might do regarding titles turn out to be true - taking titles from some while giving Zara and Peter titles would be awkward. Also, I'm not sure what title Anne could get that would be meaningful beyond 'Duchess of Edinburgh' - her father (and therefore also her mother's) title, but that has been promised to Edward. I don't think Anne would accept knowing it was meant for Edward.

I don't think this must be problematic as Peter has no wife at the moment and only daughters and Zara wouldn't need to use the title of "Lady" if she doesn't want to. Plus both are established adults now, so I don't think getting titles now would change anything in their life. Yes, Peter could marry again and become father of a son and that's not so implausible but still at the moment a new title for Anne would end with Peter. But it would be a good example for when evtl. Charlotte is an adult and about to marry. She is the grandchild of the king, she should have her own peerage. IMHO, of course.


It would definately make clear that "The Duke of Edinburgh Awards" were named for Philip of Greece and Denmark, the consort of Queen Elisabeth II and not for any other Duke of E. Edward could become Duke of Wessex or Duke of Glasgow or any other unused Ducal title the Royal family has owned or can be created for him. Maybe Duke of Forfar, that has a nice ring to it. There is also the old Royal town of Stirling, whose Castle saw so many festivities of the Stuart kings of Scotland, of which dynasty Edward is descended. The title would be free, there only ever was a range of Earls of Stirling but the title has been dormant since 1739.

 

[Somebody]

It would definately make clear that "The Duke of Edinburgh Awards" were named for Philip of Greece and Denmark, the consort of Queen Elisabeth II and not for any other Duke of E. Edward could become Duke of Wessex or Duke of Glasgow or any other unused Ducal title the Royal family has owned or can be created for him. Maybe Duke of Forfar, that has a nice ring to it. There is also the old Royal town of Stirling, whose Castle saw so many festivities of the Stuart kings of Scotland, of which dynasty Edward is descended. The title would be free, there only ever was a range of Earls of Stirling but the title has been dormant since 1739.

What is the reason that you so much want to come up with any other solution than follow-through on what the Duke of Edinburgh HIMSELF so much wanted: which is that his title would go to the Earl of Wessex and after him to any sons or grandsons he might have. Apparently, he should have made a different decision in your eyes... Hopefully Charles has more respect for his parents and for the agreement that he made with his parents and brother.

There is no doubt in anybody's mind that the DoE-awards were created by The Prince Philip and he wanted his son Edward whom he also wanted to receive the title to get involved in these awards that mean so much to him.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I just read in the Guardian (yes, there!) that people are speculating about a new raise in rank through a new title for the Princess Royal. They wrote:

"While there is speculation that the Queen’s second-eldest child and only daughter may get an elevated title in addition to her title as Princess Royal, her importance in the court of Charles is assured."

From: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...inent-role-in-support-of-brother-king-charles



Hm... What do you think?

Anybody can speculate, but I think this speculation appears to be as empty as, for example, the past speculations about Her late Majesty abdicating.

If the then-Prince Charles had even considered elevating his sister's title, I would expect him to have floated the concept in more well-read channels than one of the many, many Guardian columns commemorating and commenting on the change of reign. Recall how the possibility of reversing his 2005 Princess Consort announcement, the possibility of reneging on his 1999 Dukedom of Edinburgh agreement, and all possible options in regard to the Sussex children's future titles were discussed with royal correspondents by "anonymous sources close to the prince" and the like and picked up across the mainstream papers.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

He was offered an earldom and turned it down. He didn't want one, and they didn't want their children to grow up titled, even if it would be just Lord/Lady.

That is a popular misconception. The Hon. Angus Ogilvy, a son of the Earl of Airlie, was offered a Peerage upon his marriage with Princess Alexandra of Kent.

Angus thought it was absurd to obtain a Peerage for the sole fact of marrying a princess and turned the offer down. This has set a precedence for future marriages to princesses as the progressive Sixties and Seventies have left their influence as well. Since then neither Mark Phillips nor Timothy Laurence nor Jack Brooksbank nor Eduardo Mapelli Mozzi have been offered a Peerage.

Source: Mark Phillips in his very own words revealed in their pre-wedding interview that he had not been offered a peerage and that he would not have accepted one if he had been offered one. After his divorce from the Princess, Mark Phillips once again did repeat it in an interview.

Later Angus Ogilvy told he was sorry for having rejected the offered Peerage. Not for himself but for having unintentionally set "a terrible precedence" for Mark Phillips and others.

 

[Sister Morphine]

The Earl of Wessex will receive the dukedom of Edinburgh. Period. It's what his late parents wanted, and I highly doubt Charles is going to disregard that and give the dukedom to someone else, even his sister. So, while speculating on what extant dukedom Charles could give to his sister, that's not up for debate.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The title Princess Royal (or the male equivalent Prince Royal) trumps any Peerage and is the most prestigious title imaginable for any royal. This title was derived from the French usage of Madame Royale for the eldest daughter of the French King.

The style is not regulated by any other code than that of etiquette. Its very simplicity, however, was considered more desirable than being known more formally with any other royal title.

The British started to use it for firstly for Mary Stuart, Princess of Orange. The next Mary II Stuart, Princess of Orange would become Queen herself. Then Anne of Great-Britain and Hanover, Princess of Orange would become Princess Royal. It shows that from the start it was bestowed on princesses in the most high positions.

So the talk of "another title for Princess Anne" is a bit useless. Not only is it 2022 and neither Zara nor Peter seem interested in anything royal or noble: any title would be inferior to the style of a Princess Royal and will add nothing than just some operetta title. I very much consider Anne as a person allergic for operettas.

 

[suztav]

King George V’s daughter , Princess Mary, was the most recent Princess Royal before Anne.


When Anne passes, and when William is Kong, he can bestow the title on Charlotte.

Let’s hope that is many years from now.

 

[Somebody]

And Charlotte's name is perfectly in line with the previous Princesses Royal:

1. Princess Mary
2. Princess Anne
3. Princess Charlotte
4. Princess Victoria
5. Princess Louise
6. Princess Mary
7. Princess Anne
8. Princess Charlotte?

So, after Charlotte (assuming she will be given the title by William at some point) the next one better be a Victoria

 

[Blog Real]

And Charlotte's name is perfectly in line with the previous Princesses Royal:

1. Princess Mary
2. Princess Anne
3. Princess Charlotte
4. Princess Victoria
5. Princess Louise
6. Princess Mary
7. Princess Anne
8. Princess Charlotte?

So, after Charlotte (assuming she will be given the title by William at some point) the next one better be a Victoria

I had never noticed that order in the names of the Princesses Royals. This is very interesting.

 

[yukari]

Is it possible that maybe it's not new "title" (as in peerage,and such), but more like granting her new "role" as Counsellor of State?

Regardless of whether her current title would take precedence, it would be a very big honour. If Charles conferred a dukedom on her, would it not make her the first woman in the BRF to have a dukedom created for her? If not at least the first in several centuries.

The last example I can find is the dukedom of Norfolk being given to Margaret, Countess of Norfolk in 1397. She was the grand-daughter of Edward I by his second marriage to Margaret of France, so I suppose that counts as being a member of the royal family, albeit the English one instead of the British one.

Other dukedoms have been given to illegal wives (Inverness), mistresses (various), illegitimate sons (various) and wives of illegitimate sons (Buccleuch).

I think the most recent one was in 1900 when Queen Victoria issued LP to allow Princess Alexandra (of Fife) to hold title of Duchess of Fife in her own right (and to pass it to her male descendants).

 

[Somebody]

Is it possible that maybe it's not new "title" (as in peerage,and such), but more like granting her new "role" as Counsellor of State?

It would be granting her an old role was Anne was eligible as a Counsellor of State for almost 2 decades. However, when William turned 21, he took over her place as one of the first four adults (aged 21 years or older) in line to the throne. So, unless a complete overhaul of the system is made in terms of who is eligible, she won't. Even if Harry would be disqualified for living abroad AND they would find some reason to disqualify Andrew as well, the first four adults of 21 years of age and older would still not include Anne but: William, Beatrice, Eugenie and Edward (and in a little over 2 years Louise will join their ranks as well - being the 'spare' CoS after Edward if several others were excluded).

I think the most recent one was in 1900 when Queen Victoria issued LP to allow Princess Alexandra (of Fife) to hold title of Duchess of Fife in her own right (and to pass it to her male descendants).

The LPs were indeed issued to ensure that her father's Dukedom (he was elevated to Duke - as he previously was the Earl - a bit like the d'Udekom d'Acoz family was elevated to count) could be passed on as the original LPs only allowed for male inheritance. However, Alexandra herself did not directly receive the dukedom. Interestingly, this second time around the subsidiary title was 'Earl of Macduff' while in the first creation it was 'Marques of Macduff'; the Earl of Fife had Viscount Macduff as subsidiary title, so it was still a step up)

 

[Tatiana Maria]

As none of the previous Princesses Royal were peeresses in their own right, and there is no other truly comparable situation, I don't think it is possible to know which title would take precedence if a Princess Royal were also granted a peerage.

Mark Phillips in his very own words revealed in their pre-wedding interview that he had not been offered a peerage and that he would not have accepted one if he had been offered one. After his divorce from the Princess, Mark Phillips once again did repeat it in an interview.

Interesting. Could you please share the link to those interviews?

Princess Anne was apparently given the option of noble titles for her children:



https://www.nytimes.com/1977/11/16/...irth-to-boy-fifth-in-line-to-the-british.html

"In a departure from tradition, the child will not be given a title. [...] Many Britons were surprised when Buckingham Palace confirmed the decision a few days ago. No reason was given but it was speculated that the young parents, both of whom are known as freewheeling and independent, did not want peerages for themselves or their children."

BBC ON THIS DAY | 15 | 1977: Princess Anne gives birth to Master Phillips

"Both the princess and her husband are said to have rejected an offer from the Queen of titles which would have enabled their children to be born into the peerage."

https://www.nowtolove.co.nz/celebrity/royals/zara-tindall-i-dont-think-of-myself-as-royal-40353

Zara Tindall: "My parents didn't give me or my brother titles, so we've been able to have a slightly more normal upbringing.
"As soon as you have got a title, it is very difficult to shed it. I'm very lucky that both my parents decided not to use the title. We grew up and did all the things that gave us the chance to do."

 

[Iluvbertie]

I'm not so sure about that. There is the king/queen regnant, then there are the peers. And anyone who is not the souvereign or a peer is a commoner. Even the Princess Royal, as this is not a title of the peerage. So if Charles created her the Duchess of Edinburgh eg (which makes more sense than to create it for Edward as she is the eldest child to be able to become the holder of that ducal title when we talk about gender equality), I guess she would still be called HRH The Princess Royal and then The Duchess of Edinburgh after it, but the title of a Royal Duchess in her own right as it's a peerage would outrank the Princess title which only depicts the eldest daughter of a sovereign, but not a peeress. IMHO, of course.

The title Prince of Wales isn't a peerage title but is used in precedence over that of the long list of peerage titles that William now holds. I don't think a peerage title would take precedence over the title that indicates that a person is the eldest daughter of a sovereign just as Prince of Wales which indicates the person is the heir apparent to the throne takes precedence over a series of Dukedoms, Earldoms etc.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Timothy Laurence was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II. Can Princess Anne use the title of Lady Laurence?

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Would Anne even want a new title ? I am not that sure… I think it’s more about other people wanting to see Anne become a Duchess.

The Edinburgh-title is reserved for Edward. They can’t back down from that now as they sent out a Press Statement when Edward and Sophie married that there is a family agreement between QEII, Philip, Charles and Edward regarding the title… And they have since often talked publicly about it themselves….

What i can see happening however is Princess Anne becoming the first british Princess to be appointed to 5-star rank in all 3 branches of the Armed Forces to thank her for her support for the military wich goes back to the 1970:s… That i think Anne would appreciate more…