Grand Duke Serge (1857-1905) & Elisaveta Feodorovna, Grand Duchess Serge (1864-1918)

[Marengo]

Wel the war in the Crimea might have fueled Victoria's dislike for Russia but even before that she wasn't overly exited about the country and esp. about the Romanovs. I believe she found them somewhat loose (affairs with ballerina's and such), though she usually said nice things about Alexander III and Minny (as she was a sister of her own daughter in law AND they led a family life without any scandals and such. Apart from that she might disagreed with an autocratic rule as opposed to her own constitutional rule in the UK, though I can not remember a book that ever researched that part.

Added to that, Victoria dreaded the 'Royal Mob' in general, even her Rumpenheim relatives (she disliked Queen Louise of Denmark too I believe as she found her too fond of gossip).

Anyway, her dislike for the Romanovs didn't prevent 3 of her grand daughters from marrying a Russian.

 

[Russophile]

Added to that, Victoria dreaded the 'Royal Mob' in general, even her Rumpenheim relatives (she disliked Queen Louise of Denmark too I believe as she found her too fond of gossip).

Well, what else were they going to talk about except who was sleeping with whom?

 

[lexi4]

Y, is that because Ella was so much older than Alix? When did Alice die? I believe Alice's influence on Ella was much stronger than Alix--being the younger, of course--and did that have more influence in their personalities and upbringing?

Alix was 6. Her mother died in 1878. Ella was staying with her paternal grandparents at the time. She didn't come home until after her mother and little sister were dead.

 

[ysbel]

Wel the war in the Crimea might have fueled Victoria's dislike for Russia but even before that she wasn't overly exited about the country and esp. about the Romanovs. I believe she found them somewhat loose (affairs with ballerina's and such).

Interesting Marengo. I think all of Britain found the Russians a bit loose. Robert Massie has a wonderful account of Nicholas' coronation and a British diplomat's re-telling of his horror of daringly cut necklines, large jewels hung in indiscreet places in the body, too much dancing and not enough decorum.

Victorian British males were probably not accustomed to such wanton display.

 

[lexi4]

Ella: Princess, Saint and Martyr by Christopher Warwick, I haven't read that biography but I do have 'Elizabeth: Grand Duchess of Russia' by Hugo Mager which I found somewhat disappointing.

I believe Ella was indeed enjoying the society of Moscow and St. Petersburg before her husband died and her own sister thought she and her clique were arrogant etc. Not that that was too surprising as Alix basically didn't approve of any relative of course.

Thanks! I don't have the book, I'll have to add it to my list. What didn't you like about Mager's book?
Lexi

 

[COUNTESS]

I think you are all correct, but Victoria was a wise woman and, I think, she saw Russia as an unmanageble, backward, dangerous country. She raised Alix as if she were her own daughter and it dismayed her to see this "child", become pat of this scene. She was right.

 

[ysbel]

Y, is that because Ella was so much older than Alix? When did Alice die? I believe Alice's influence on Ella was much stronger than Alix--being the younger, of course--and did that have more influence in their personalities and upbringing?

Well if Alice was British, you'd expect Ella to act more British than Alix did but Alix was the one who took her cockney maid and nanny to Russia with her. These were the same English maid and nanny that Alice had taken to Germany with her. They were the source of OTMAA's English and when the family visited England, either Victoria or Edward were horrified with the cockney accents of the tsarevich and grand duchesses and demanded that their English be rectified forthwith!

I don't know as much about Ella's upbringing as I do Alix's.

 

[Russophile]

Y, Peter mentioned that. And also said they couldn't speak properly. Then with the addition of Gilliard and Gibbes, it didn't help the children much.
Now, Ella, on the other hand, I have read GD Marie Pavlovich's book, said Ella wasn't much of a warm mother that she needed. How were the tutors that she and Serge hired for Marie and Dmitry? How did their education differ than OTMAA's?

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

My favourite photos of Ella, I completely love these! She was such a beauty.

 

[Russophile]

I'm still in the middle of Christopher Warwicks book on Ella (due to currently reading TRF's book of the month! ) and, of course I skipped ahead and it mentioned that Ella was very much a flirt. I will be most anxious to get back to that and see what was what.

 

[colynsmomma]

I am in the middle of King, Keiser, Tsar. In the book it says that Victoria could not stand that the girls made Russian marriages. Victoria was very pro- german when it came to marriages within the family. It also said that one of the reason that Alix married Nicky was because Ella wanted her to.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Queen Victoria was definitely less than thrilled with the sisters' Russian marriages (especially since Alix was a "firm favorite") because of her disapproval the Russian court's loose morals.

Some could say that Ella played a huge role in world history because of her life choices. Alix was deeply in love with Nicholas but could not, initially, bring herself to give up her Lutheran religion. It was Ella who helped convinced her to convert to Orthodoxy, thus allowing her to marry Nicholas. Also, Ella had been seriously courted by Kaiser Wilhelm II but found him haughty and refused him (who can blame her?). There's a lot of "what ifs?" for history when it comes to her: If she had married Wilhelm, what would have been the fate for World War I? If she wasn't there to promote Alix's marriage to Nicholas, what would have been the fate for the Russian monarchy? Ella is one of those people in history that most might dismiss as just another minor royal, but when you examine her connections, her actions may have changed the course of world history.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Yes, Queen Victoria did not approve. But, if Alice (Alexandra's mother) was alive at the time, I don't think she would be happy about Elizabeth changing faith. But, I think Elizabeth made a great choice, by who she really loved. Queen Victoria wanted her daughters to marry either English or German princes. I think Elizabeth is very faithful and religious. I think her devotion to Christ and cherity work makes her such a excellent person. She became an Orthodox nun after Sergei's death. I've read that another nun predicted Sergei's death two years earlier. She said that something was going to hit him in the head. How did the nun actually know this was going to happen to Sergei, ahead of time? Also, Nicholas's mother the Dowager Empress Marie didn't want Nicky to mary Alix. The Russian court didn't like Alix much because she was born in Germany. She's originally English, since she spoke English and grew up in England. Russia disliked Germany.Even years later, Marie and Alexandra didn't like each other much. I remember where Alix perfered to stay home, than go on the standart with Marie, Nicholas, and OTMAA. It's sad when the bolsheviks murdered Ella.

I like Elizabeth was very beautiful. In her adolescence years, she lookes very pretty in her photographs, so did Alix. Victoria, Ella, Irene and Alix all had their mother's beauty.

 

[Russophile]

No, Alix and Ella were German Princesses, though there was no doubt they had English nannies and English influences.
I agree with Empress, though, Ella's choices and influence really could have turned things in history. I don't think she was in love with Sergei, but I think she and Sergei developed a type of love and understanding that suited them well.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

No, Alix and Ella were German Princesses, though there was no doubt they had English nannies and English influences

Yes, the both were born in Germany. But, they were raised by Queen Victoria in England so they were also English too.

 

[Russophile]

Yes, the both were born in Germany. But, they were raised by Queen Victoria in England so they were also English too.

I'm going to need sources that directly states that they were raised by QV. There is no doubt that QV took an interest in them and influenced them after Alice died and they spent a lot of time with QV, but there is nothing in Christopher Warwicks book that states they moved in with QV at her residences in England and Balmoral for years at a time.
They lived with their father. In Germany.

 

[EmpressRouge]

I can see both your points, Russophile and AnastasiaEvidence. They did both live with their father in Germany, but Alix was closer to Queen Victoria than Ella (or any of her sisters and a lot of her cousins) was because of her young age when their mother died. Ella was already fourteen and married into the Russian family a few years later. On the other hand, Alix was only six when GD Alice died, thus QV spent a lot more time with Alix and took the motherless child under her wing. Whereas Ella thrived and enjoyed the atmosphere of the festive, elaborate Russian social scene (before her husband's death), Alix seemed to inherit QV's views and distaste for its lax morals and indulgence. Although much of her personality was Victorian English, the Russians never forgot that she was originally German and used that against her especially during WWI

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Yes, exactly Alix grew up with Queen Victoria. She also lived with her parents in Germany, before Alice died. I don't think the Russians had a good understanding of her childhood and teenage years. Just because she was born in Germany, doesn't really make her completely German.English was her main language. I think where a person was raised for a period of time, custums and the langauge and their culture determines their nationality. She was Victorian English. Alix is one of Queen Victoria's favorite grandchildren.Alix didn't have any sisters to play with because, her sisters were much older and near adulthood. Alix would usually play with her young English cousins. Alix has great respect for Queen Victoria. After her death in 1901, in many photos she wore black dresses and was still mourning for her grandmother even six months later. I wonder why Alix didn't want her children to see their young cousins?

I'm quite sure that Victoria, Ella, Irene, and Ernest spent some years with Queen Victoria after 1879 for a short period until, they were married. I've seen photos of them all together with Queen Victoria. When Ella was married in 1884, Alix first met Nicky.

Many Russian people accused Alix for being a spy for Germany.

 

[Russophile]

When Ella was married in 1884, Alix first met Nicky.

I have to dispute this as well. I believe Alix and Nicky met in England first when she was 12 and he 16 (or 14) I can't remember. And he fell for her there. Who's wedding was this in England that they first met? I can't remember.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

I have to dispute this as well. I believe Alix and Nicky met in England first when she was 12 and he 16 (or 14) I can't remember. And he fell for her there. Who's wedding was this in England that they first met? I can't remember.

Yes, that was during Ella and Sergei's wedding in 1884. Nicholas was 16, and Alix was 12. The wedding was in Russia.

 

[Russophile]

Yes, that was during Ella and Sergei's wedding in 1884. Nicholas was 16, and Alix was 12. The wedding was in Russia.

Okay, you're right. Per Carolly Erickson's book: Alexandra, they met when she was 12 at Ella's wedding. Reading your post it sounded like you said they were ENGAGED in 1884 when they couldn't have been. I apologize.

 

[EmpressRouge]

I have to dispute this as well. I believe Alix and Nicky met in England first when she was 12 and he 16 (or 14) I can't remember. And he fell for her there. Who's wedding was this in England that they first met? I can't remember.

According the Royal Romances series, the couple first met at Ella and Sergei's wedding in 1884 when Alix was 12 and Nicky was 16. They met again when Alix visited Ella in Russia in 1889 when she was 17 and that's when romance blossomed. Around the same time, Alix turned down Albert Victor's (George V's brother) proposal. After Alix left, Nicky took up with ballerina Mathilde Kschessinska and went on his tour of the Far East (which left him a scar and hatred of the Japanese). They were finally engaged in 1894 at the wedding of Alix's brother, Grand Duke Ernest and cousin Victoria Melita "Ducky", in Colburg.

 

[Al_bina]

Interesting Marengo. I think all of Britain found the Russians a bit loose. Robert Massie has a wonderful account of Nicholas' coronation and a British diplomat's re-telling of his horror of daringly cut necklines, large jewels hung in indiscreet places in the body, too much dancing and not enough decorum.

Victorian British males were probably not accustomed to such wanton display.

Citing the French ambassador, Pikul agreed with Massie's account of Nicholas' II coronation. He wrote in his book “At the Last Frontier” (also known as “The evil power”) that the amount of diamonds and other jellewery paired with daring dress styles shocked foreign diplomats. Looking at this luxury and recollecting his recent trip to the Russian countryside, the French ambassador said to people in his entourage that he gained a better of understanding of the French history. He referred to opulence of French court of Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette and the French revolution looming up ahead. Unlike their British counterparts, French diplomats were not easily shocked ... I assume ...
As for Grand Duchess Elisaveta Feodorovna, Pikul noted that she was a beautiful sensible pious individual. She seemed to embrace the Orthodox religion in a more healthy way than Alexandra Fedorovna did. Grand Duhcess Serge also showed appreciation of Russain culture. However, Pikul pointed out that Rasputin’s presence in the Imperial couple’s life prompted estrangement between sisters as Grand Duchess Serge was said not to favour Rasputin much.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

Queen Victoria message for the children after their mother's death in 1878. Ella wasn't present at the time the children had the disease,s he was away. Alice died on the same day December 14th- that her father died on 17 years ago. Alice and her sisters had to wear mourning clothes for a period of time.

Alexandra: the last tsarina- Queen Victoria (after Alice's death in 1878)
Poor dear children, you have the most terrible blow which can befall children - you have lost your precious, dear, devoted mother who you loved and devoted her life to you and your dear papa. That horrible disease which carried off sweet little May and from which you and the others have recovered has taken you away from you and poor dear old grandmama, who with your other kind grandmama will try to be a mother to you.

Okay, you're right. Per Carolly Erickson's book: Alexandra, they met when she was 12 at Ella's wedding. Reading your post it sounded like you said they were ENGAGED in 1884 when they couldn't have been. I apologize.

I also get a lot of my resources from that book. That's ok, I forgive you.

 

[AnastasiaEvidence]

These are photos of Queen Victoria with the children in 1879. They are still mourning after the death of Alice.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u269/Valeria_Anya/Hesse/alix22.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u269/Valeria_Anya/Hesse/AlickywithsistersEllaandViktoriaand.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u269/Valeria_Anya/Hesse/1aayr8.jpg

 

[Cantata]

Ella

I am new to posting on this forum, but have been following it (secretly ) for quite a long time and have wanted to reply to the view that Serge was homosexual. I don't believe it to be the case. My thought is that he was very unpopular and there may have been rumours about 'a Grand Duke' visiting bath-houses etc. (that Grand Duke was, in fact, Konstantin Konstantinovich - as is revealed in his diaries). People somehow linked the two and assumed it was Serge. I observe that virtual every photo of Serge shows him in a particular posture (sitting with his legs crossed), the body language of which suggests he had something to hide but I think he had some 'disability' which rendered him incapable of fathering children, which added to the rumours.

If anyone is interested, I have recently completed a novel: Most Beautiful Princess - based on historically accurate evidence about Ella. There are no fictional characters in the book.
Most Beautiful Princess by Christina Croft (Book) in Literature & Fiction

 

[Russophile]

I am new to posting on this forum, but have been following it (secretly ) for quite a long time and have wanted to reply to the view that Serge was homosexual. I don't believe it to be the case. My thought is that he was very unpopular and there may have been rumours about 'a Grand Duke' visiting bath-houses etc. (that Grand Duke was, in fact, Konstantin Konstantinovich - as is revealed in his diaries). People somehow linked the two and assumed it was Serge. I observe that virtual every photo of Serge shows him in a particular posture (sitting with his legs crossed), the body language of which suggests he had something to hide but I think he had some 'disability' which rendered him incapable of fathering children, which added to the rumours.

If anyone is interested, I have recently completed a novel: Most Beautiful Princess - based on historically accurate evidence about Ella. There are no fictional characters in the book.
Most Beautiful Princess by Christina Croft (Book) in Literature & Fiction

I rather prescribe to the view that KR and SA were both bi-sexual. See Christopher Warwicks book: Ella: Princess, Saint, and Martyr where he discusses KR's falling in love with his wife and fathering, what? 11 children?Or was it 9? Yet having relations with men as well and feeling very guilty about them. Serge, I believe had those same feelings.

 

[Pixilated]

It's so sad how Ella's life went.A marriage to a man she did not love.Then he is assassinated.Breaking off relations with her sister,the only relative near her.Then dying at the bottom of a mine...just horrible.

 

[Russophile]

It's so sad how Ella's life went.A marriage to a man she did not love.Then he is assassinated.Breaking off relations with her sister,the only relative near her.Then dying at the bottom of a mine...just horrible.

I have to dispute your assertion that Ella was not in love with Serge. To cite Christopher Warwick again, Ella wrote many letters to her sisters and to her Grandmother Queen Victoria saying, in effect, that there was more to Serge than met the eye. That one loved him the more that one got to know him. I believe that they really loved each other, just not in the way that the rest of us are used to, or wish to have a marriage. There are many forms of love.

 

[Cantata]

Absolutely Ella loved Serge, and there is little doubt that he loved her. I am sure he was an extremely difficult man to be married to - his short temper and uptightness - but I believe Ella, at great cost to her own dreams and beliefs, understood and accepted that. The greatest difficult they faced was the amount of gossip surrounding their marriage, based - imo - on 2 facts that have resulted in so much speculation without foundation. Firstly, they had no children, secondly, Serge was a very highly stung man who created many enemies by his difficult temperament. Why is it assumed that he was gay/bi-sexual? I don't think the comparison with KR really holds water. If KR managed to conceal his enjoyment of bath-houses, Serge could have done so. There is, in fact, no evidence that Serge was bi-sexual or gay.
He was an extremely complex man. A man who obviously had something to hide. KR did not appear so uptight and was greatly loved.
The saddest part of Ella and Serge's marriage was the amount of gossip and speculation surrounding it.