Engagement of Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia & Nob. Rebecca Bettarini


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
Did Virginia Rebecca legally change her name to Victoria Romanova? Or is it only a religious name that she will use in the Russian context? So, what is stated in her Italian passport?

I can not imagine the Italian Republic changing it from Vittoria Bettarini into Victoria Romanova by authority of the Russian-Orthodox Church. There is not even a legal union between the two, only a private choice of Vittoria to join another Christian denomination.

It wil be the same as a Miss Jane Doe becoming Sister Mary-Benedict or so upon entering religious state. Legally the new Nun remains Miss Jane Doe for the State.
 
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I can not imagine the Italian Republic changing it from Vittoria Bettarini into Victoria Romanova by authority of the Russian-Orthodox Church. There is not even a legal union between the two, only a private choice of Vittoria to join another Christian denomination.

It wil be the same as a Miss Jane Doe becoming Sister Mary-Benedict or so upon entering religious state. Legally the new Nun remains Miss Jane Doe for the State.
It could be that Virginia Rebecca (not Vittoria ;) ) requested the change herself; I wonder whether that is expected (same with Ned when he converted to Islam to be allowed to marry his princess-fiancée - I assume his legal name hasn't changed but I'm not sure what would happen if he would request Jordanian citizenship; wouldn't they use his 'Islamic' name?). I agree that the Italian Republic wouldn't act upon the Russian-Orthodox Church's instructions.
 
Same for Carl Christian and his brother Rudolf being incorporated in the Belgian nobility in the early 80s - but with a much lower style (serene highness).

And recognition and registration in an EU memberstate means it is acknowledged by all 27 EU memberstates plus the three EEA countries (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) which accept each other titles and surnames.

In Austria Carl Christian would be Herr Habsburg (not even a von).
With his Belgian Passport he is prins/prince de Habsbourg Lorraine no matter how Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, France or Italy handle former titles. He can identify with this document, he can register as such, he can buy properties or request notarial or juridical acts, their descendants can pass name and titles and I can understand this is important for them.

By my understanding the only legal royal title registered somewhere for the happy fiancé is Georg Prinz von Preußen. Whatever happens with his pretensions in Russia, he is and remains a prince of the former Royal House of Prussia. And if he has a German ID, he is registered as Prinz von Preußen. I can not imagine any EU country, let us assume Spain, registering him as Jorge Mijáilovich príncipe de Prusia y Romanova, gran-príncipe de Rusia.

For Spanish authorities his father is príncipe de Prusia based on his German passport. But his mother is nowhere a gran-principesa de Rusia. I assume, when she lived in Spain, his mother was registered as Doña María Vladímirovna Romanova y Bagratión, without any title.
 
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Wouldn't she be Ihre Königliche Hoheit die Prinzessin Georg von Preußen anyway, as wife of George (who is in reality the son of a Prince of Prussia and titles pass via legal male agnatic descendance)?

Legal titles in Germany, which in reality are surnames, are eligible to pass via legal male or female descendance. The daughter of Iris Princess of Saxony is Xenia Princess of Saxony.

However, whereas Prince of Prussia may be legally registered as a surname in Germany, my understanding is that Royal Highness cannot be.

If Georg, as son of a German father, registers himself in Germany he can use the republican style Georg Prinz von Preußen and as his legally wedded wife she can be Viktoria Prinzessin von Preußen in all legal documents of an EU memberstate. Absolute legality versus titles of pretension as Princess Romanoff which is in no any Russian or Italian municipal registry.

With other words: Mrs Maria V. Romanova can issue a decret in which her daughter-in-law becomes Princess Romanoff but in essence that is the same as my parents making me Emperor of Atlantis. It is pure pretension.

(That is also why the current Duke of Parma and his siblings requested recognition and incorporation of their foreign title into the Nobility of an EU memberstate. Now they have official documents with their legally protected title and surname, no longer a ritle of pretension).

Hasn't he legally registered himself using the surname of his mother? If he is registered as Großfürst von Rusland or Romanoff, I don't think it is possible for him to be registered simultaneously as Prinz von Preußen.


And recognition and registration in an EU memberstate means it is acknowledged by all 27 EU memberstates plus the three EEA countries (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) which accept each other titles and surnames.

In Austria Carl Christian would be Herr Habsburg (not even a von).
With his Belgian Passport he is prins/prince de Habsbourg Lorraine no matter how Austria, Hungary, Czech Republic, France or Italy handle former titles. He can identify with this document, he can register as such, he can buy properties or request notarial or juridical acts, their descendants can pass name and titles and I can understand this is important for them.

No, at least some of the EU countries apply their own regulations to their own citizens irrespective of their dual citizenships. The UK for instance refuses registration of even legal foreign titles held by UK citizens.
 
See here for the first section of their wedding ceremony: https://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f207/other-royal-and-noble-weddings-15529-21.html#post2368657



Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Großfürst Georgi und Ihre Hoheit die Fürstin Victoria von Rußland.

More correctly "Seine Kaiserliche Hoheit der Großfürst Georgi von Rußland und Ihre Durchlaucht die Fürstin Victoria Romanoff" since Victoria, as per her future mother-in-law's decision, will be a Serene Highness and carry the title of Princess Romanoff.

According to the engagement announcement, she will carry the surname of Romanoff and use the title of Princess (not Princess Romanoff), as well as the predicate of Serene Highness.

Russian Imperial House - 2021-01-20 Announcement of the Upcoming Wedding of His Imperial Highness The Heir, Tsesarevich, and Grand Duke George of Russia and Nob. Victoria Romanovna Bettarini
We deem it proper that VICTORIA ROMANOVNA should, from the moment of her marriage with Our son, have the right to use the dynastic surname Romanoff with the title of Princess and the predicate of Serene Highness.​


In reality, the title of Grand Prince (translated into English as Grand Duke) never had any such territorial designation as "of Russia". One may note that, in the Russian version of the announcement, George is not styled "of Russia".

Ð*оссийский Императорский Дом - 2021-01-20 Объявление о предстоящей свадьбе Его Императорского Высочества Государя Наследника Цесаревича и Ð

I suppose the territorial designation is used outside of Russia as an indicator of which royal house the Grand Prince is a member of.



Usually a Fürst is a reigning Prince and a Fürstin his wife.

But what in the English speaking world is translated as Grand-Duke and Grand-Duchess is in German Großherzog and Großherzogin. (Used for Luxembourg).

In German the Russian title is translated as Großfürst and Großfürstin. The Russian title in Dutch translation: Grootvorst and Grootvorstin. It is more correct because the Latin Magnum Princeps translates in English as Grand-Prince and not as that lousy Grand-Duke.

The English-speaking translations certainly are inconsistent. Velikiy Knyaz is translated as Grand Duke, yet Knyaz is translated as Prince.



She took the name Victoria Romanova when she converted to Russian Orthodoxy.

Her name since birth is Rebecca Virginia (Bettarini) but her 'new name upon conversion to the Russian Orthodox church' (in August last year) is Victoria Romanova.

Just a small correction: As indicated in the engagement announcement, the name she took upon conversion was the patronymic Romanovna, rather than the surname Romanova.

The surname will be taken upon marriage, and in the announcement it appears that outside of Russia she will be using the masculine version of the family name, i.e., Romanoff.


But if he elevated her doesn't he basically admit that he's not the undisputed head of the house? [...] Once he raises her and/or their children to "Imperial" status he has to acknowledge all the other unequal marriages as legitimate for dynasts.

The heads of the former imperial house of Austria did not have to. Despite elevating unequal wives in the junior lines of the family to "imperial" status, they have refused to acknowledge the senior morganatic line of Hohenberg as legitimate dynasts, which would have had the effect of raising the Hohenbergs to the headship.
 
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Finally a date. Hope this Virus will be over with and we will see Royals with Tiaras. This will be a great event Looking forward to it.
 
I wonder who is paying for the wedding, is it the Russian government?

No, the "Imperial Family" is no longer official so will be paying for this completely privately or getting gifts from friends/supporters.
 
Will Victoria use the Russian Nuptial Tiara?
 
Will Victoria use the Russian Nuptial Tiara?

Since it has been locked away in the government vaults for decades, highly unlikely. I don't see the Russian government handing it over for a wedding.

His mother has tiaras she could borrow

Maria Vladimirovna's Pearl Kokoshnik | The Court Jeweller

https://www.pinterest.ru/pin/380132024771964973/

https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/532972937155424143/

There may be tiaras on his father's side as well that I am unaware of.
 
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There may be tiaras on his father's side as well that I am unaware of.

The House of Prussia indeed has a collection of jewels. In Georgi's case the most interesting one is the Russian kokoshnik style diamond diadem Kira Kirillovna Romanova, Grand-Princess of Russia (1909-1967) wore when she married into the House of Prussia.

Picture: Kira and Kaiser Wilhelm II in Doorn, the Netherlands: https://previews.agefotostock.com/p...9f10cf11ac87abc2eed42061b6b9/mev-10223523.jpg

Sophie of Prussia: https://royalwatcherblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/2b4881f104c9490ef794574d44bf7434.jpg?w=345

Detail:
https://royalwatcherblog.files.word...c6bce7b436aa7d1487a0f9e7a46c8.jpg?w=652&h=489
 
The House of Prussia indeed has a collection of jewels. In Georgi's case the most interesting one is the Russian kokoshnik style diamond diadem Kira Kirillovna Romanova, Grand-Princess of Russia (1909-1967) wore when she married into the House of Prussia.

Picture: Kira and Kaiser Wilhelm II in Doorn, the Netherlands: https://previews.agefotostock.com/p...9f10cf11ac87abc2eed42061b6b9/mev-10223523.jpg

Sophie of Prussia: https://royalwatcherblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/2b4881f104c9490ef794574d44bf7434.jpg?w=345

Detail:
https://royalwatcherblog.files.word...c6bce7b436aa7d1487a0f9e7a46c8.jpg?w=652&h=489

Yes the main branch of the Prussian family has some lovely pieces.

The question would be does George and his future wife have access to those tiaras? The two lines are only distantly related.
 
Yes the main branch of the Prussian family has some lovely pieces.

The question would be does George and his future wife have access to those tiaras? The two lines are only distantly related.
Not that distant. Kira Kirillovna was Maria's aunt and George's great aunt.
 
Yes the main branch of the Prussian family has some lovely pieces.

The question would be does George and his future wife have access to those tiaras? The two lines are only distantly related.

Recently Princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia wore this diadem for her wedding to Hereditary Prince Ferdinand of Leiningen. This made me guess that the diadem is accessible for the House of Prussia, to which Georg belongs via his father's Ebenbürtige marriage to Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, Grand-Princess of Russia.

Viktoria Luise is as distantly related to Wilhelm II as Georg is.

Picture: https://static2.oggi.it/wp-content/...uarda-le-foto/IPA_9758106_pr.jpg?v=1505743572



Georg von Preussen x Rebecca Bettarini
|
Franz Wilhelm von Preusssen x Maria Vladimirovna Romanova
|
Karl Franz von Preussen x Henriette von Schoenaich-Carolath
|
Joachim von Preussen x Marie Auguste von Anhalt
|
Wilhelm II x Auguste Viktoria von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg



Georg Friedrich von Preussen x Sophie von Isenburg
|
Louis Ferdinand Jr von Preussen x Donata von Castell-Rüdenhausen
|
Louis Ferdinand Sr von Preussen x Kira Kirillovna Romanova
|
Wilhelm von Preussen x Cecilie von Mecklenburg-Schwerin
|
Wilhelm II x Auguste Viktoria von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg



Viktoria Luise von Preussen x Ferdinand zu Leiningen
|
Friedrich Wilhelm von Preussen x Ehrengard von Reden
|
Louis Ferdinand Sr von Preussen x Kira Kirillovna Romanova
|
Wilhelm von Preussen x Cecilie von Mecklenburg-Schwerin
|
Wilhelm II x Auguste Viktoria von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
 
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Yes the main branch of the Prussian family has some lovely pieces.

The question would be does George and his future wife have access to those tiaras? The two lines are only distantly related.


As far as it is known these tiaras now belong to Prince Georg Friedrich. so if he loans Rebecca/Victoria one of them then yes. But why should he loan them a tiara if her future mother-in.law also has tiaras who could be loaned.


Recently Princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia wore this diadem for her wedding to Hereditary Prince Ferdinand of Leiningen. This made me guess that the diadem is accessible for the House of Prussia, to which Georg belongs via his father's Ebenbürtige marriage to Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, Grand-Princess of Russia.

Viktoria Luise is as distantly related to Wilhelm II as Georg is.


But is was not loaned to Countess Angelina zu Solms-Laubach when she married Viktoria Luise's brother Prince Joachim Albrecht in 2019.
And both Viktoria Luise and Joachim Albrecht are closer related to Prince Georg Friedrich then Grand Duke Georgi who is also not a descendant of Crown Pricness Cecilie the first owner of the tiara.
 
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I agree that Rebecca will possibly wear one of the diadems of her mother-in-law, Maria Vladimirovna Romanova. Especially the pearl kokoshnik with the dangling aquamarine cobochons will be amazingly beautiful with a veil.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-r9fB_Rnz...HrJE7pgCNcBGAsYHQ/s1600/2020-1007-albania.png

But also the diamond kokoshnik with the dangling pearls will look great:
https://64.media.tumblr.com/297e434.../0939aaeec2a6abef5199f07911509a4d06234c0d.jpg

From behind it shows a true round kokoshnik style:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wWq7Ocpb...AIDm2JzfzKNp2ya90EzQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/10-2.jpg

On her wedding day she wore Leonida Georgievna's (her mother's) pearl diadem, I believe. It can be worn with diamond stars.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/be/89/6d/be896d78511809ead84a6260a10c6ce1.jpg
 
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Yesterday Rebecca's Instagram stories had a post from a visit to the tiara vault at the jeweller Chaumet in Paris. My guess is therefore that she'll be wearing a loaned tiara for her wedding.
 
Recently Princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia wore this diadem for her wedding to Hereditary Prince Ferdinand of Leiningen. This made me guess that the diadem is accessible for the House of Prussia, to which Georg belongs via his father's Ebenbürtige marriage to Maria Vladimirovna Romanova, Grand-Princess of Russia.

Viktoria Luise is as distantly related to Wilhelm II as Georg is.

Picture: https://static2.oggi.it/wp-content/...uarda-le-foto/IPA_9758106_pr.jpg?v=1505743572



Georg von Preussen x Rebecca Bettarini
|
Franz Wilhelm von Preusssen x Maria Vladimirovna Romanova
|
Karl Franz von Preussen x Henriette von Schoenaich-Carolath
|
Joachim von Preussen x Marie Auguste von Anhalt
|
Wilhelm II x Auguste Viktoria von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg



Georg Friedrich von Preussen x Sophie von Isenburg
|
Louis Ferdinand Jr von Preussen x Donata von Castell-Rüdenhausen
|
Louis Ferdinand Sr von Preussen x Kira Kirillovna Romanova
|
Wilhelm von Preussen x Cecilie von Mecklenburg-Schwerin
|
Wilhelm II x Auguste Viktoria von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg



Viktoria Luise von Preussen x Ferdinand zu Leiningen
|
Friedrich Wilhelm von Preussen x Ehrengard von Reden
|
Louis Ferdinand Sr von Preussen x Kira Kirillovna Romanova
|
Wilhelm von Preussen x Cecilie von Mecklenburg-Schwerin
|
Wilhelm II x Auguste Viktoria von Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg



The question was not how distantly he is related to Wilhelm II. But how distant his relation is to the current head of the Prussian royal family, George Friedrich is. George Friedrich is the owner of the tiaras in question.

Victoria Luisa is first cousins with George Friedrich, both being the grandchildren of Louis Ferdinand and his wife Kira.

The tiara belonged to their shared great-grandmother Cecile, but was also the wedding tiara of their shared grandmother Kira.

Royal Musings: A royal Marriage - Princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia becomes the Hereditary Princess of Leiningen

http://www.thecourtjeweller.com/2017/09/royal-wedding-jewels-in-amorbach.html

Georgie has no link to Cecilia or Kira. Not like the other two.

And since his mother has tiaras of her own to share with her future daughter in law, there is no need to borrow from distant family.



Yesterday Rebecca's Instagram stories had a post from a visit to the tiara vault at the jeweller Chaumet in Paris. My guess is therefore that she'll be wearing a loaned tiara for her wedding.


It may not be related to her wedding at all.


She says that it is linked to a historical project she is involved in which will be revealed soon. That is why there were professional cameras there.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CMFm8d8BK1f/
 
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The question was not how distantly he is related to Wilhelm II. But how distant his relation is to the current head of the Prussian royal family, George Friedrich is. George Friedrich is the owner of the tiaras in question.

Victoria Luisa is first cousins with George Friedrich, both being the grandchildren of Louis Ferdinand and his wife Kira.

The tiara belonged to their shared great-grandmother Cecile, but was also the wedding tiara of their shared grandmother Kira.

Royal Musings: A royal Marriage - Princess Viktoria Luise of Prussia becomes the Hereditary Princess of Leiningen

Royal Wedding Jewels in Amorbach | The Court Jeweller

Georgie has no link to Cecilia or Kira. Not like the other two.


While Grand Duke George is not a descendant of Crown Princes Cecilie, he does have a link with Kira who was his great-aunt, the sister of his grandfather Grand Duke Vladimir. Kira became ill while attending Vladimir's fiftieth birthday and died of a heart attack en-route to the hospital.

Ferdinand of Leiningen is a great-grandson of Grand Duchess Marie, another sibling of Kira and Vladimir. She married Prince Karl of Leiningen. Marie also suffered a heart attack and died while visiting her brother Vladimir.
 
While Grand Duke George is not a descendant of Crown Princes Cecilie, he does have a link with Kira who was his great-aunt, the sister of his grandfather Grand Duke Vladimir. Kira became ill while attending Vladimir's fiftieth birthday and died of a heart attack en-route to the hospital.

Ferdinand of Leiningen is a great-grandson of Grand Duchess Marie, another sibling of Kira and Vladimir. She married Prince Karl of Leiningen. Marie also suffered a heart attack and died while visiting her brother Vladimir.

Maybe the lesson, don't visit Vladimir if you have a heart condition :flowers:

While yes more remotely related to Kira,not a direct descendent. And the tiara was made for Cecilia, not her daughter in law.

But again with the numerous tiaras in Georgie's mother's possesion, there is little need to borrow froma different branch.
 
Maybe the lesson, don't visit Vladimir if you have a heart condition :flowers:

While yes more remotely related to Kira,not a direct descendent. And the tiara was made for Cecilia, not her daughter in law.

But again with the numerous tiaras in Georgie's mother's possesion, there is little need to borrow froma different branch.


Makes you wonder how his daughter acquired all her tiaras. :eek:
 
Goodness was Vladimir hiding behind furniture and jumping out at his sisters?

Forgive the comparison but wouldn't borrowing this tiara be a little like Ella Windsor borrowing a tiara that her great-grandmother Queen Mary had worn? Theoretically she could ask and theoretically HM might agree, but there's really no need as her mother has two lovely ones.
 
Goodness was Vladimir hiding behind furniture and jumping out at his sisters?

Forgive the comparison but wouldn't borrowing this tiara be a little like Ella Windsor borrowing a tiara that her great-grandmother Queen Mary had worn? Theoretically she could ask and theoretically HM might agree, but there's really no need as her mother has two lovely ones.

It would be more like Ella borrowing a tiara that belonged to the Queen Mum or Princess Alice.

Georgie's connection to the tiara is it was worn by his Great Aunt Kira.

His descent is a generation further back then Ella. Queen Alexandra and not Mary would be the proper comparison. But the tiara was never owned or worn by Georgie's great-great grandmother Augusta. It came into the family through his great-grandfather's sister in law Cecilia (wife of his brother the crown prince). Cecilia's daughter in law Kira though was his Great Aunt.


But Ella didn't need to borrow any tiara as her line of the family has tiaras. And Georgie's family has tiaras as well.
 
What tiaras does GD Georgie's mother actually own ? I have never seen a picture in which she has been photographed wearing a tiara that she / her family actually own .
 
It would be more like Ella borrowing a tiara that belonged to the Queen Mum or Princess Alice.

Georgie's connection to the tiara is it was worn by his Great Aunt Kira.

His descent is a generation further back then Ella. Queen Alexandra and not Mary would be the proper comparison. But the tiara was never owned or worn by Georgie's great-great grandmother Augusta. It came into the family through his great-grandfather's sister in law Cecilia (wife of his brother the crown prince). Cecilia's daughter in law Kira though was his Great Aunt.


But Ella didn't need to borrow any tiara as her line of the family has tiaras. And Georgie's family has tiaras as well.


No, the Queen Mother and Princess Alice were married to Ella's great-uncles, just like Kira was George's great-aunt. So it's not a generation further back. It would be more like Ella borrowing a tiara that had belonged to her grandfather's sister Mary (aka the Princess Royal & Countess of Harewood).

But I agree with you about the tiara. No need for George's bride-to-be to borrow from another relative when his mother has plenty of her own.
 
No, the Queen Mother and Princess Alice were married to Ella's great-uncles, just like Kira was George's great-aunt. So it's not a generation further back. It would be more like Ella borrowing a tiara that had belonged to her grandfather's sister Mary (aka the Princess Royal & Countess of Harewood).

But I agree with you about the tiara. No need for George's bride-to-be to borrow from another relative when his mother has plenty of her own.

I love your selective editing of my posts :lol:

Here are the key parts you chose to edit out

It would be more like Ella borrowing a tiara that belonged to the Queen Mum or Princess Alice.

Georgie's connection to the tiara is it was worn by his Great Aunt Kira.


I mentioned the Queen Mum and Alice instead of Mary as Mary's tiaras were sold off by her family when she died. The Queen Mum and Alice still have tiaras around for their great niece (by marriage) to ask to borrow.


The point being that borrowing from your great aunt (Elizabeth or Alice) is not the same as borrowing from your great-grandmother (Mary) as was the proposed comparison.
 
I love your selective editing of my posts :lol:

Here are the key parts you chose to edit out




I mentioned the Queen Mum and Alice instead of Mary as Mary's tiaras were sold off by her family when she died. The Queen Mum and Alice still have tiaras around for their great niece (by marriage) to ask to borrow.


The point being that borrowing from your great aunt (Elizabeth or Alice) is not the same as borrowing from your great-grandmother (Mary) as was the proposed comparison.

I did not selectively edit your post. I misunderstood it. I often find your garbled grammar difficult to understand.
 
Finally a date. Hope this Virus will be over with and we will see Royals with Tiaras. This will be a great event Looking forward to it.


I wonder which Royal Family will get an invitation, and who is brave enough to travel to Russia in October if the pandemic is still not under control.
 
I wonder which Royal Family will get an invitation, and who is brave enough to travel to Russia in October if the pandemic is still not under control.

George is a godson of King Constantine of Greece but I doubt he will attend considering his poor health. Other royals who attended his baptismal ceremony included King Juan Carlos and Queen Sofia of Spain and King Simeon and Queen Margarita of Bulgaria, who I assume will be invited.
 
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