General News about Joachim, Marie and Family Part 6: January 2021 - December 2023

[ricarda]

And why shouldn't Joachim & Marie get hurt, why shouldn't their public estimation drop?
Nobody forced them to give those interviews and open that can of worms.
And now the DRF should control the damage they have done?
What are they supposed to do? Pull their tongues out?

Joachim is one big damage for the DRF. He got everything presented on a silver tableau but he is unable to make something of it. After the failure of his farm business he failed to find a role for himself (and he hasn't been the spare since 2005) and worked as little as his officially retired father. So his mother presents him and his French wife with a military education and a stay in France. After the TV serie he actually got a lot of praise and after his stroke a lot of sympathy. He could have build his future on that. But what does the looser do? He gives interviews where he claims that his role is not defined and that he feels the same frustration as his father. And when the journalists want to ask questions he displays his usual arrogance.

I agree with the writer of the BT article that Joachim & Marie love the limelight but they only want positive coverage, no critical questions. And Joachim can't be saved because he doesn't want to be saved.

But yeah, it's all Mary's or the queen's or the DRF's fault.

 

[Muhler]

Protest.

I think you are are harsh and unnecessary one-sided.

There is no need to call Joachim a loser. He is hardly the only one who had to give up on his business and losing a manor.

Yes, Joachim IMO talked without a proper strategy to back him up. But royals, just like normal human beings, sometimes say what's on their mind. It's becoming obvious to me that this is what happened in this interview.
Joachim said what he felt, when it would have been more prudent to keep his mouth shut. - We can in a sense be grateful for such things happening or this forum would be much less interesting...

The DRF does share a responsibility. It appears they may not intend to act on this outburst. Which is also a cry from Joachim about something that bothers him personally. We can debate endlessly whether Joachim is spoiled or not or whether he is being unfairly treated or not. What does matter is that he does have a point:
What do we do with the spares, once they are no longer needed as spares. In Joachim's case there are four healthy children ahead of him, hence he is no longer a spare. So what's to become of him and others in the same situation?
That is an issue that needs to be addressed. Because times have changed. The public will no longer accept a royal spare in perfect working order, retiring to a manor somewhere and live a comfortable life without obligations.

I can understand the DRF being caught off guard, but I can't see the wisdom in them staying quiet about it.
There can only be two reasons as I see it:
A: They hope to silence this and weather the storm - there really isn't any storm. Not right now. Fat chance of that succeeding though.
B: They are working on a solution and won't go public until an agreement with all parties, including the government, is in place.

Mary has nothing to do with anything. She is a best contributing with ideas and thoughts.
This is down to QMII, being the Monarch and Frederik, who seems to run most things on a daily basis these days.
They are either to knock Joachim on the head telling him: You are to do this and that and otherwise keep your mouth shut!
Or negotiate a solution that will suit all parties concerned.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to call Joachim a loser in the sense of a sore loser because regardless of anyone's personal feelings of him, that's simply how he comes across in these interviews. Like someone who hasn't gotten it the way he wanted.

I also don't think the problem of a spare's role is as big a problem after all. Because there was a role for Joachim. He had Schackenborg and a position as a part-time royal, and if you think about it, that's not a bad solution. The problem is that the solution was created for him rather than by him. Instead of letting him figure out what he wanted to do with his life, it was decided that he was to be a farmer. And that's where the DRF needs to do (and, considering M&F's parenting style, will do, I reckon) better with Isabella.

The problem with what to do with him when he was no longer a spare, as I see it, arose when he sold off Schackenborg and moved back to Copenhagen. Because it seems his and Marie's assumptions were that they could continue their part-time workload while having little-to-nothing on the side (Joachim ended up having his part-time job with the defence but very little suggests he spent a lot of hours on it and the DRF refused to provide the actual numbers for his workload, and Marie didn't have anything).

And that's where I take issue with his argument because before he was, if we're to believe J&M, forced into first the course and subsequently the position in Paris, he did have several years to figure out what to do with his life post-farming. But nothing came of it and they both just sort of continued doing very little for a quite substantial wage.


The DRF (and that being the DRF as an institution, not as a family) are involved whether they like to be or not because 1. Joachim is a part of the DRF, and 2. they're also the ones he's indirectly been criticising in those interviews. And as always, they've opted for the silent treatment. Problem is that I don't think the press is going to stop asking questions, and thus the hole they're digging themselves into is just getting deeper and deeper.

 

[Muhler]

Apart from the loser-lapel, which I have reservations against, (It's up to you to sell that one, if you believe you can.) you raise a number of interesting points.

As for Schackenorg. It has been described many times in this thread what condition the place was in when Joachim took over. So he had the odds against him.
Still Joachim soldiered on in a career he had not chosen. Like so many has to. - "You grandfather was an attorney, your father is an attorney, your sister is an attorney - you are also going to be an attorney!"
So does Frederik, and he sure had his misgivings about his career, when he was younger.

Anyway, it didn't work. Goodbye to Schackenborg.
And there were indeed a number of years where Joachim was in a kind of limbo, that are difficult to explain.

I'm still willing to bet on a depression.

Having gone through a costly divorce, where he got most of the blame, at least initially. And later having to sell his manor, where he was indeed labeled a loser in the eyes of some of the public, combined with him being a very proud man, that's a good recipe for a getting a depression.
I have fortunately never had a serious depression, but I have witnessed many. It's not something you just get over. You may never fully recover. And it changes you and your outlook fundamentally. And some are very good at hiding it - until they hang themselves...
Anyway, that's just my guess. - It would sure explain a lot of things though!

Then Joachim finally had a personal and public success. Being a narrator and documentarist. Something he is very good at. And something he could keep doing.
Then duty calls. Off to France.
We have debated this endlessly and I do not subscribe to the view that he a choice and could say no. - So I won't rehash that.

However, if my little pet-theory about a depression is correct, that would very much explain the little outbursts we have heard from Joachim and from his sympathetic wife.
Whether it's rational or not is besides the point, because no matter what, that is how Joachim (and our Marie) view his situation. The human aspect.

I mean, you can sit on top of a pile of gold-bars and still be depressed and express a view that may seem incomprehensible, spoiled and irrational to others. But that's not how you see it.

But back to what we do with Joachim.
I think the most humane thing would be, when he returns from France, to let him lose. No more work and no more obligations for the DRF. He is free to pursue his dreams and become a historical documentarist. - No apanage but a one time compensation that so many of us is eligible for when we are fired. But he should be able to live comfortable of his personal fortune for the rest of his life.
And when he turns say 65, he can get a pension comparable to what an ex-minister gets.

I think that is a model that could be used for future spares, Isabella being the next one.
Basically she belongs to the state and work for the DRF (part-time?) until she is say 50, with all the personal restrictions and conditions that entails.
Upon turning 50 she is free.
She gets a handsome compensation. (That's the least we can do IMO) and when she retires at the normal retirement age for her generation, she will get a pension comparable to a minister.
She will retain her title of Princess, but her children and husband will not get a royal title. He can get a title like Count of Trend or whatever.

If anyone has got other solutions it would be most interesting to learn about them. ?

 

[polyesco]

Evening at the theater for Joachim, Marie and the kids
https://www.instagram.com/p/CSci-n0Ay_O/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Nice to see the family spending time in Denmark. Since Frederik is regent this week I assume the Queen might have gone to France.

And thank you Muhler and Zelia for the conversation regarding Joachim.
I do think Joachim and Marie did themselves no service by "complaining" and bringing up the topic multiple times in interviews. Now he doesnt want to follow up and that's unfair.

 

[camelot23ca]

I'm still willing to bet on a depression.

…

But back to what we do with Joachim.
I think the most humane thing would be, when he returns from France, to let him lose. No more work and no more obligations for the DRF. He is free to pursue his dreams and become a historical documentarist. - No apanage but a one time compensation that so many of us is eligible for when we are fired. But he should be able to live comfortable of his personal fortune for the rest of his life.
And when he turns say 65, he can get a pension comparable to what an ex-minister gets.

I think that is a model that could be used for future spares, Isabella being the next one.
Basically she belongs to the state and work for the DRF (part-time?) until she is say 50, with all the personal restrictions and conditions that entails.
Upon turning 50 she is free.
She gets a handsome compensation. (That's the least we can do IMO) and when she retires at the normal retirement age for her generation, she will get a pension comparable to a minister.
She will retain her title of Princess, but her children and husband will not get a royal title. He can get a title like Count of Trend or whatever.

If anyone has got other solutions it would be most interesting to learn about them. ?

It’s not uncommon for people to have some lasting problems after even minor strokes. Depression, yes, but also subtle cognitive or personality changes. A full recovery doesn’t always mean that the person is exactly the same as they were prior to the stroke. I can’t remember if the concerning comments were made before or after the stroke, but it’s something to consider.

Going forward, I continue to think the most logical and kind way of dealing with the “extra” children in the upcoming generation of European royalty is to prepare them for careers and adult lives that are separate from official royal duties.

In this particular case, Denmark is a small country, and the CP couple has four children. It’s unlikely there’s enough work for all of them, certainly not enough to justify hefty apanages well into their adult lives. Isabella, Vincent and Josephine should be prepared to earn their own livings, and should be free to pursue whatever interests they may have, whether that’s being a gentleman farmer in rural Denmark, or studying medicine in Australia, or starting a family in the US and raising children there. If they’re interested in attending the occasional state dinner or representing a Danish charity as a volunteer, great, but none of them should expect that they’ll be supporting themselves financially as full time working royals, nor should they feel the same sense of obligation towards Denmark and the Danish public that Christian does, or will.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

The specific comments that the journalists wanted elaborated at the race were made after. But IMO it's just a continuation of the same type of comments he'd made prior to his stroke.

Apart from the loser-lapel, which I have reservations against, (It's up to you to sell that one, if you believe you can.) you raise a number of interesting points (...)

I'm afraid Joachim sells that one himself through his many statements

We've discussed your depression-theory before. My stance has not changed. I can't excuse his numerous outbursts on the basis of a theory that Joachim himself has not even been close to confirming, either directly or indirectly. (And why wouldn't he confirm it, if your theory holds? He has been very vocal in recent years after all – also on sensitive subjects such as him setting too high standards for Nikolai.)

The problem with the narrative of him finding his role as a documentarist and storyteller but it being overruled in favour of the military role by the DRF is, IMO, that a such role doesn't fill out the void that his position (that he, and we agree about this, was forced into) as a farmer left.

Reinventing himself as a documentarist while maintaining the same sparse engagement count simply wouldn't hold in terms of avoiding criticism for his work not matching his wage. While his work as a farmer wasn't public duty per se, he did serve as a type of DRF representative in Jylland. Symbolic value, sure, but going off of your own nickname for Marie, it clearly worked ? I don't think work as a documentarist holds the same public value.

However, if he had taken a pay cut to match his engagement count while living out his dream as a documentarist (and, as such, making his own money on the side), I honestly don't think the (institution the) DRF would've been opposed to it. Which leads me to believe the real issue was the apanage and an unwillingness to make changes to it which necessitated a solution that could warrant him maintaining the same apanage.

I think the solution for Isabella and future spares is pretty straightforward. The court has already established that only the heir is guaranteed an apanage (not, as the tabloids like to twist their words, that the heir is the only one who will receive apanage). That, to me, indicates that the spare will be paid for the work they perform for the DRF and not simply for being a member of the DRF. And I think that's a great solution. It'll allow the spare to get an education of their choice and potentially also an independent career while receiving adequate pay for the amount of work they perform as members of the DRF.

 

[Muhler]

Camelot23ca.

J&M brought up their misgivings before and after the stroke, so I don't think the stroke matters that much in this specific context.

You are quite right. Isabella will be a spare, whether it's part time or full time, she will have a role and a relatively high public profile.
But unless something happens to Isabella, she moves abroad or opts out of the DRF, I cannot see any role for Vincent and Isabella. They will have to find a career of their own.

In the glare of hindsight, it would have been better had Joachim, along with the rest of the DRF, started to rethink his entire role and royal status after having sold Schackenborg. And perhaps looked at options to either leave completely or in other ways lessen his role within the DRF.
However, I'm not sure that option was open at the time.
PH was still around and I don't think he would have looked with kind eyes on Joachim opting out.
Nor am I sure QMII would have understood why that should be a good idea.
And Frederik, he still had young children and I think he felt that he could use Joachim's support.

And even if the thought had occurred to any of them, I doubt any of them would have suggested any such thing. Not after Joachim gone through this public humiliation of selling Schackenborg.

Even if Joachim suggested it himself, I think the collective reaction from the rest of the family would have been: "Nonsense. Of course you have a role to fulfill. Of course we need you."

Another thing is that it wasn't a part of the bargain that Joachim should leave once he was no longer a de facto spare.
He had kept his part of the bargain. He had taken over a manor as he was told. He took the education he was told. He took on royal obligations while looking after Schackenborg, as was expected of him. - And keep in mind that for a number of years he and Alexandra acted as the CP-couple.
So I don't think the thought of him being sacked or declared redundant or having his apanage reduced, due to public pressure, was fair in his eyes.

So yes, things should have been done, things could have been done, things should have been explained and options should have been explored - but they weren't.
So, perhaps as a direct consequence of that, Joachim for a few years and for reasons we can only speculate about, didn't do that much and more importantly didn't reinvent himself and his role.

Joachim has been spared the big storm this time, mainly because people have had other things on their minds recently, Corona.
But that state of affairs will not continue.
So IMO the DRF might just as well start working out what Joachim's status and future should be.
Unless J&M decides to remain in France or move to another job say at the Defense Command or NATO HQ, they have 2½ year tops to work it out.

BTW. Once Joachim has finished his tour in Paris he is likely to be promoted to major general. And including pension, perks and an expense account, that amounts to roughly 35-45 % of Joachim's apanage (which is not taxed), before taxes.

 

[Susan D]

There may be an issue where Queen Margrethe grabs for herself too many of the decent royal duties. However, Prince Joachim was wrong to fail as a business man (in Hong Kong) and to then fail as a gentleman farmer. He seems to not apply himself. Junior royals all need to carve out careers for themselves. They don't have automatic jobs like the heads of state.

 

[Muhler]

Joachim wasn't a businessman while in Hong Kong. He was an intern. At Mærsk IIRC.

Perhaps it was more down to there simply being too many adult royals around for the number of jobs they had? Seven at the time.

In contrast to the BRF, the DRF members have never been here, there and everywhere. DK is simply too small for that to be practical with the aim being that a royal attendance should be something special.

As it is, perhaps it's realistic to realize that the DRF has work for two working couples and one or two occasional stand ins?

In the future that means: M&F, Christian (+ wife when he has one) and Isabella (increasingly doing a Benedikte). - With J&M and/or Vincent and Josephine only standing in when really needed. Mainly as Rigsforstander.

Evening at the theater for Joachim, Marie and the kids
https://www.instagram.com/p/CSci-n0Ay_O/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
Nice to see the family spending time in Denmark. Since Frederik is regent this week I assume the Queen might have gone to France.

And thank you Muhler and Zelia for the conversation regarding Joachim.
I do think Joachim and Marie did themselves no service by "complaining" and bringing up the topic multiple times in interviews. Now he doesnt want to follow up and that's unfair.

It's a funny play and an interesting choice, not least in view of the children and very much with cultural-historical theme. It's something the family can talk about afterwards.

The play is called Jean de France and was written by the satirist and play-writer Ludvig Holberg. He was very heavily influenced by Voltaire and his plays to this day are still very much current. So much so that a number of his plays and quotes from his plays are in common use today, and well-known today. Even though they were written 300 years ago.

This play is about a guy named Hans Frandsen, he goes to France. (Back then France was THE place to go. It was the cultural center of Europe and practically all European royals and nobles and anybody else who could went there as a part of their formative upbringing.)
At the same time DK was very provincial and remained so pretty much until around 1990 I'd say.
Anyway, he returns extremely pretentious. He has changed his name to Jean, he dress "French" behaves "French" and throw French expressions around while explaining how they in France do this and that. C'est Manifique!
Like in all of Ludvig Holberg's plays he ends up being cut down to size - but not before a number of people around the main character has been skewered as well.
People back then from high to low would know exactly what kind of type Jean de France was, and probably met several of them.
Hence why Ludvig Holberg's plays were and are so loved, they appealed to everyone and all classes.

What is funny is that when the DRF and their court went to the theater to watch Holberg's plays, there would be translations in German or French at hand, so they could keep up with what was said - because the plays were in Danish.

At the time there were many German-speakers in the Danish realm, as well as Norwegians.
The nobility spoke French or Latin among themselves.
The civil servant class spoke only German. They were notorious for flatly refusing to speak Danish.
If you were a reasonably well educated Dane living in Copenhagen, say a merchant, you spoke Danish and German as a matter of course. You may well have spoken French as well and you would know a good deal of Latin. And you would at the very least understand most of what was being said in Swedish and Norwegian.

Some may say that this play is too advanced for Athena and Henrik, but I don't think so at all. When I went to school we were taught about Holberg's plays at around 10-12 years old.

 

[maria-olivia]

Prince Joachim recovered so well from his stroke and what a happy family.
After a dificult divorce our Marie gave his what he missed a lot of love and comprehension.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

In the glare of hindsight, it would have been better had Joachim, along with the rest of the DRF, started to rethink his entire role and royal status after having sold Schackenborg. And perhaps looked at options to either leave completely or in other ways lessen his role within the DRF.
However, I'm not sure that option was open at the time.
PH was still around and I don't think he would have looked with kind eyes on Joachim opting out.
Nor am I sure QMII would have understood why that should be a good idea.
And Frederik, he still had young children and I think he felt that he could use Joachim's support.

And even if the thought had occurred to any of them, I doubt any of them would have suggested any such thing. Not after Joachim gone through this public humiliation of selling Schackenborg.

Even if Joachim suggested it himself, I think the collective reaction from the rest of the family would have been: "Nonsense. Of course you have a role to fulfill. Of course we need you."

Another thing is that it wasn't a part of the bargain that Joachim should leave once he was no longer a de facto spare.
He had kept his part of the bargain. He had taken over a manor as he was told. He took the education he was told. He took on royal obligations while looking after Schackenborg, as was expected of him. - And keep in mind that for a number of years he and Alexandra acted as the CP-couple.
So I don't think the thought of him being sacked or declared redundant or having his apanage reduced, due to public pressure, was fair in his eyes.

So yes, things should have been done, things could have been done, things should have been explained and options should have been explored - but they weren't.
So, perhaps as a direct consequence of that, Joachim for a few years and for reasons we can only speculate about, didn't do that much and more importantly didn't reinvent himself and his role.

Joachim has been spared the big storm this time, mainly because people have had other things on their minds recently, Corona.
But that state of affairs will not continue.
So IMO the DRF might just as well start working out what Joachim's status and future should be.
Unless J&M decides to remain in France or move to another job say at the Defense Command or NATO HQ, they have 2½ year tops to work it out.

BTW. Once Joachim has finished his tour in Paris he is likely to be promoted to major general. And including pension, perks and an expense account, that amounts to roughly 35-45 % of Joachim's apanage (which is not taxed), before taxes.

Stepping down or leaving altogether weren't the only options. If he'd stepped up his engagements in 2014, he might not even be in the situation he is in today (one he is clearly unsatisfied with). I don't subscribe to the idea that Denmark should be too small to have 5-6 full-time working royals.

Besides, since J&M themselves claim the decision to move them abroad was made for them, it quite clearly shows the DRF has been thinking about if not minimising his role, then finding a new role for him, so I'm not sure I understand why you think they would've been opposed to it around 2015-16?

As for the bargain, as mentioned above, I still think it's far-fetched to pretend his only option was to leave, but additionally, his situation – and as such the grounds on which the bargain had been made – had clearly changed. It'd simply be naive of him to think it's even remotely fair – or part of the bargain – to maintain the same sparse engagement count after having sold off Schackenborg.

If I held a position that originally consisted of two primary tasks but then abandoned one of those task, there's simply no way I'd still get paid going forward for doing two task Is that fair since I've previously put such great effort into the abandoned task? Maybe not but I'm not sure my employer cares a lot about that.

 

[Muhler]

Hmm, I don't believe you can compare yourself to Joachim. Somehow I doubt your parents dictated your career choice, while at the same time making it clear you and your spouse should work part time for the family business. And if anything happened to your older sibling you should step in and take over the business.
So yes, Joachim kept his part of the agreement.

Nor do I believe I ruled out other options than Joachim leaving and cutting down on engagement.
I too can envision something Joachim - with the wisdom of hindsight - could have done: Focusing on something specific. Finding some topic that would be his field only. Something he could very much get involved with and make it his project. - Akin to the Invictus Games, albeit on a local scale.
No matter what it was, it would have meant that Joachim would not have had to compete with other DRF members about the work there was, because I maintain that at the time there wasn't enough meaningful jobs around to increase the number of DRF appearances, not without diminishing the "mystique" of royalty.
- The royals must not become a common sight when on the job. They have to be something special.

I doubt the DRF planned for Joachim to become a military attache. I think that was much more a military-political option the government(s) had been working on, and here Joachim so to speak got drafted.
So no, I don't believe the DRF - that is QMII and Frederik - had something in mind for Joachim. And certainly not as early as 2016.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Yeah, no, I'm still not up for pitying someone born into so much wealth and privilege for being born into wealth and privilege We all have to deal with different life situations. My point is that yes, those were his conditions for a number of years but he also got (and still gets) compensated richly for it. Regardless of your situation, it's simply obscene to assume you can go from full-time to half-time and be paid the same wage.

There's absolutely no need for "competition" about work. The DRF, bless them, isn't overworked and there are heaps of areas not covered by QMII, (Henrik,) Frederik and Mary that he could've delved right into.

Yeah, no, I disagree. The (institution the) DRF may not have had him becoming a military attaché in particular in mind but I think it's pretty obvious there's been discussions between the court and the government – perhaps even inquiries by the court – in terms of a role for Joachim.

 

[Muhler]

So no pity for people who have money and privileges if their psyche hurts? It's a sentiment you have expressed before and I don't share it. I refuse to share it.

Why shouldn't he still get his apanage? Be compensated as you put it.
AFAIK there are no conditions saying a recipient of apanage must work an X number of hours a year.
So Joachim adhered to the agreement.
So for that matter did Alexandra. She too got an apanage. Mainly to ensure Nikolai and Felix would grow in conditions befitting their status - that a quote by a leading politician. (Was it Poul Nyrup?) But it was her money. In a sense you can claim that her apanage was also for "services rendered."
It wasn't my impression that she was that willing to give up her apanage BTW, but she did. Which was a wise move.
- So the argument about apanage is based on a diffuse foundation, because there are no set rules. Merely a public and personal sentiment. A symbolic view if you prefer, because the amounts are peanuts in comparison to so many other examples of state employees who get a salary that is remarkably high, also when they screw up.

Knowing that will provoke you, ? I'll be more serious again and agree with you.
Yes, it is certain the government sounded out QMII in regards to sending Joachim to France. Or much more likely, the government expressed a desire for Joachim to go to France. Hence why I used the expression that Joachim was "drafted."
Joachim is a DRF member, the government has to sound out QMII first, before urging Joachim to apply for the position at military academy.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

That's definitely not what I said but it's also not the first time you've twisted my words to make it sound as though that's what I said ? An unfortunate habit, it seems.

To reiterate: I don't pity people born into wealth and privilege for being born into wealth and privilege. As in: I can sympathise with Joachim for feeling forced into a particular life path but I'm not gonna pity him simply for being born a royal with all the privileges that comes along.

I'm not saying he shouldn't receive an apanage at all. But I am saying is that his apanage should reflect the amount of work he performs. I'm not sure Alexandra is the best comparison. It may be your perception that she felt forced into giving it up but at least she had the situational awareness to actually nip it in the bud

And I'm still very confident the DRF were the ones who made inquiries about a position for Joachim ?

 

[Nordic]

And there were indeed a number of years where Joachim was in a kind of limbo, that are difficult to explain.

I'm still willing to bet on a depression.

So no pity for people who have money and privileges if their psyche hurts?

How do you know he has/had a depression and that his psyche hurts? Or is that just your own theory?

 

[Muhler]

That's definitely not what I said but it's also not the first time you've twisted my words to make it sound as though that's what I said ? An unfortunate habit, it seems.

To reiterate: I don't pity people born into wealth and privilege for being born into wealth and privilege. As in: I can sympathise with Joachim for feeling forced into a particular life path but I'm not gonna pity him simply for being born a royal with all the privileges that comes along.

I'm not saying he shouldn't receive an apanage at all. But I am saying is that his apanage should reflect the amount of work he performs. I'm not sure Alexandra is the best comparison. It may be your perception that she felt forced into giving it up but at least she had the situational awareness to actually nip it in the bud

And I'm still very confident the DRF were the ones who made inquiries about a position for Joachim ?

But that's what you said.
You said very clearly in your last post: "I'm still not up for pitying someone born into so much wealth and privilege..." (Because X,Y, Z)
But "I'm still not up for pitying someone born into so much wealth and privilege" is the key sentence.

And you have time and time again used expressions like "whining", "complaining", "moaning" and "suck it up" also when I have suggested that he may have suffered from a depression. I do not recall you having shown any pity, compassion or understanding - empathy if you prefer - for Joachim in these long discussions in this thread.
Nor have you ever tried, to the best of my recollection, to reverse your view and acknowledge that Joachim's psyche (as I put it) might hurt.

Fair enough, then let me for once get a very straight answer from you: Do you feel sympathy for Joachim, despite him being born into wealth and privileges?
It's a simply and honest question. Yes or no.

And I'll give you a challenge, if you are up for it. It's very educational actually.
Will you be the Devil's Advocate and defend Joachim as best as you can in this thread, with me going on the attack?

How do you know he has/had a depression and that his psyche hurts? Or is that just your own theory?

A qualified guess. He sure didn't feel great after the divorce from Alexandra. (I refer to a couple of reports of Joachim being drunk in public. Reports we didn't hear before or since.)
And I should be extremely surprised if he wasn't down, as in really down, after the sale of Schackenborg. And Joachim is a very proud man.
So I don't think my pet-theory about Joachim possibly having a depression, is in any way farfetched.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Why lie though? I even italicised the actual key sentence (bolded underneath) in my original post

Yeah, no, I'm still not up for pitying someone born into so much wealth and privilege for being born into wealth and privilege (...)

No "because x, y, z". You simply cannot take a sentence out of its original context and then just place it into your own to make it fit your narrative or idea of what I mean. What you're doing there is on par with me writing "I don't like footballers who dive" only for you to be like "oh, so you don't like footballers?!" Please don't stoop so low.

A quick search will tell you I've used the phrase "suck it up" once on here, in a SRF thread. I've not used "whining" about Joachim but have used "whine" once. "Moan"/"moaning" I've used exactly twice, once being in the same post I used "whine" As for "complaining"... but isn't he?

And I've explained to you countless of times why I'm not gonna excuse Joachim on the basis of a hypothesis formed on outside observations (a sardonic person would say observations through the press but I'm obviously not a sardonic person ). A hypothesis that Joachim himself has never been even close to confirming – either directly or indirectly. I understand that's how you rationalise his behaviour but please also understand that that does not make it a fact (and that not sharing your theory doesn't make someone unempathetic).

The devil has multiple advocates. No need for me to work pro bono ?

A qualified guess. He sure didn't feel great after the divorce from Alexandra. (I refer to a couple of reports of Joachim being drunk in public. Reports we didn't hear before or since.)
And I should be extremely surprised if he wasn't down, as in really down, after the sale of Schackenborg. And Joachim is a very proud man.
So I don't think my pet-theory about Joachim possibly having a depression, is in any way farfetched.

Letting loose after a divorce hardly warrants a diagnosis for depression. And Joachim has been very open about how tough the sale of Schackenborg was on him. He's generally just been very open in interviews these past years. And there's been heaps of awareness about mental health in the public – his own sister-in-law is one of the most vocal champions of mental well-being. Why wouldn't he also be open about a depression?

 

[JessRulz]

Okay, I think we've played pseudo-doctor for enough time now.

Please refrain from speculating and outright diagnosing people you do not know with medical conditions. Unless you are someone's doctor, there is no "qualified guesses". Further posts doing so will be deleted entirely.

 

[Muhler]

(..)
I think we have explored the possibilities for Joachim's future and the alternatives that in hindsight could have been on the table when Joachim moved out of Schackenborg, sufficiently for this time around.
Based on the very few hard facts available it cannot amount to much more than opinions, speculations and guesses.
After the sale of Schackenborg Joachim's workload in a DRF-context was reduced.
Two obvious reasons being:
A) That he didn't want to take on more work - for whatever reason.
B) That something happened - that for whatever reason meant that he did not take or could not take on more engagements.
Based on what I believe we know about his character, his sense of obligation and previous workload, I prefer option B.
(..)

It's easy to be critical of someone. But trying to understand someone is more challenging.
Just as with the other DRF-members I can easily rip Joachim apart, if I wanted to. No problem. But I prefer trying to understand him.

 

[Isabelle de France]

It's easy to be critical of someone. But trying to understand someone is more challenging.
Just as with the other DRF-members I can easily rip Joachim apart, if I wanted to. No problem. But I prefer trying to understand him.

thank you for your posts about Joachim...
like you I see him as someone serious, honest and concerned about doing the right thing... as he has been the subject of much criticism for years, he must have suffered a lot...
born a prince, he couldn't do what he wanted, like any other man, without being watched and judged all the time, but whenever something went wrong in his life, he was the only one to be accused (divorce etc...)
sorry for my bad english...

 

[iceflower]

The ungoing personal argument has been removed, please use the private message system instead in case you wish to continue your personal dissensions. Thank you.

 

[kalnel]

(..)
After the sale of Schackenborg Joachim's workload in a DRF-context was reduced.
Two obvious reasons being:
A) That he didn't want to take on more work - for whatever reason.
B) That something happened - that for whatever reason meant that he did not take or could not take on more engagements.
Based on what I believe we know about his character, his sense of obligation and previous workload, I prefer option B.
.

Whatever Joachim's motivations are -- who knows? -- I'm curious why finding a "role" for him seems so difficult and controversial. The Danish royal family has such an excellent role model for siblings of the monarch/heir in Princess Benedikte. She seems to take on a lot of engagements and work hard for her charities, yet she always works in a way that supports the Queen, rather than competing with her.

Is there reason why having Joachim build a meaningful career through royal duties -- as his aunt has -- would be undesirable to the royal court?

 

[maria-olivia]

Princess Marie was in Denmark when the Queen was in Cayx. Will she see the Queen who is back in Denmark?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Whatever Joachim's motivations are -- who knows? -- I'm curious why finding a "role" for him seems so difficult and controversial. The Danish royal family has such an excellent role model for siblings of the monarch/heir in Princess Benedikte. She seems to take on a lot of engagements and work hard for her charities, yet she always works in a way that supports the Queen, rather than competing with her.

Is there reason why having Joachim build a meaningful career through royal duties -- as his aunt has -- would be undesirable to the royal court?

That is a good question. I wonder if it is because Princess Benedikte has only lived in Denmark on a part-time basis since her marriage and perhaps for that reason the expectations (and scrutiny) from the public are more modest?

 

[Muhler]

Whatever Joachim's motivations are -- who knows? -- I'm curious why finding a "role" for him seems so difficult and controversial. The Danish royal family has such an excellent role model for siblings of the monarch/heir in Princess Benedikte. She seems to take on a lot of engagements and work hard for her charities, yet she always works in a way that supports the Queen, rather than competing with her.

Is there reason why having Joachim build a meaningful career through royal duties -- as his aunt has -- would be undesirable to the royal court?

https://www.bt.dk/royale/dronning-m...im-deler-opsigtsvaekkende-feriebillede-det-er

The royal reporter on BT, wrote about QMII's visit to Chateau Cayx - without our Marie being present. - He speculates - and I emphasize speculate (because that's something this reporter is in the habit of doing) that this might very well be a meeting where QMII and Joachim are discussing various aspects of the misgivings Joachim has expressed in regards to his status, perhaps also his future role (if any of course) and his apanage.

That has been followed up by an article today, that IMO is no less speculative.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/danskerne-kraever-svar-fra-prins-joachim-hvad-skal-der-ske-med-apanagen

- I do however think that the idea of Joachim and QMII meeting in person - and staying in the same place) would be a good opportunity for the two of them to have a good and frank discussion.
And indeed it would be great if some sort of solution was found. No matter what is it. Whether Joachim stays on as an active royal upon returning from France. Whether he will gradually fade away as an active royal or whether there will be a third option - perhaps J&M will decide to stay in France. Perhaps with Joachim focusing on a private career of some sort.
Because as I have pointed out in most of my previous post, the current situation cannot continue. There has to be an elaboration of the misgivings Joachim has expressed. There also has to be an outline of his future role.

 

[kalnel]

What is it about the current situation that can't continue? (I'm genuinely curious, not taking issue with your comment.)

I get the impression that there are two issues in play. First is Joachim's satisfaction with his assignments. Other than generating bad publicity for the royal family when he complains in interviews, that's really a personal matter, isn't it?

Second, there's his appanage. I guess the question there is whether Danish taxpayers view that as "payment for services" or more of an annuity attached to his royal status. If people are expecting a certain level of services, Joachim obviously will need to act accordingly.

When I've read excerpts from his interviews, I've been struck by how he continues to describe himself as "second in line." He hasn't been second for almost 16 years -- and he's a much more removed sixth in line today.

Although I can imagine it must be frustrating if he's not getting clear signals from the royal house about what expectations they have of him, it sounds like he may need to recalibrate his own thinking about where he stands.

 

[Muhler]

It all boils down to Joachim expressing his dissatisfaction in regards to his position.
So he has to explain what he means. And in continuation of that also envision what he and the DRF see as his future role and status.
Had he not said anything in regards to his position and status, the situation regarding his status would have remained the same.

- It's no secret that some Danes believe he should give up his apanage while working as Defense Attache.
Some also view his misgivings in a less that positive light.
But no matter what he does raise some good questions.

I'm not sure I can explain it better than this.

 

[kalnel]

When you say you think he has to explain himself, what do you think is at risk if he doesn't?

Do you think his comments (or his silence) jeopardize the entire DRF? Or is it more that it hurts his popularity and potentially the willingness of Danes to continue paying his appanage?

I'm still trying to understand how and why Joachim's status became so controversial. I get that some people may question whether his contributions to society are worth what he receives in the appanage. But, there seems to be another layer to all this. Is there a concern that the royal court is mistreating him? Or, is there a sense that he's just pouting because he doesn't get enough attention?

Or maybe there's something else I'm missing? (And again, I'm not taking issue with anything anyone has written. I'm just trying to delve into it a little and understand things better.)