The Duke and Duchess of Sussex: Transition & Future

[_Heather_]

Denville, but the point is that Harry and Meghan were fine with living half the year in the UK. You’re saying that they really didn’t want to live in the UK at all if they didn’t have to....but then, if that’s true, why did they even propose a half and half situation unless it was to appease the Queen and Charles?

Truthfully, I suspect that was their proposal because they knew it would look better than simply saying "we're out." Anytime you enter into negotiations about anything you shoot high and understand that you can always work down but you can't go back up. In this case, if you say that you want to work part time and then they tell you "no" you can say "well we tried" and go on about your business as you wanted to in the first place. That's my take on it anyway, especially because Harry would have known or should have known that they weren't going to be allowed to do the half in/half out.

 

[muriel]

In fact, staying at Frogmore would have pretty much ensured that they wouldn’t have to deal with an intrusive media.



Denville, but the point is that Harry and Meghan were fine with living half the year in the UK. You’re saying that they really didn’t want to live in the UK at all if they didn’t have to....but then, if that’s true, why did they even propose a half and half situation unless it was to appease the Queen and Charles?

It all seems very sad, IMO.

> The half-in half-out arrangement was never going to work, IMO. It has been tried unsuccessfully previously. Representing the Crown one day, and endorsing a brand or making a paid speech are just not compatible, IMO. Worse still, soliciting work on a royal engagement, as it appears Harry did with the Walt Disney executive is just not acceptable.

> What makes this particularly worse is that H&M announced their gramnd plans on 8 January, without having secured agreement of HM. That just results in a PR disaster all around.

> Do H&M intend to spend any time in the UK at all? Personally, I just do not thing we will see Meghan here at all, other than at times absolutely necessary (e.g. family events, funerals and previously committed engagements). I do not believe she has any interest whatsoever in either "The Firm", the British people or Harry's family.

 

[Durham]

As to your last point, that’s absolutely true - and I’m sure the British public would be fine with that if it were confirmed that Charles was doing that through his personal, not Royal, monies.

I'm not sure what the distinction is between personal & royal monies. What is the source of Charles "personal money"? If it's inheritance from the late Queen Mother then she had no money of her own (earned or from the Bowes-Lyons) just what was left to her by her husband. What was the source of that money? It certainly wasn't any sort of earned income.

Charles has money because his immediate ancestors had money. That money came from the public purse/ancient duchies in one form or other. I'm not so sure the British public would therefore be quite so sanguine.

 

[Betsypaige]

I agree 100%. None of this mess is their fault and since most of them are not in the very privileged financial position of Harry and Meghan, they're the ones who will suffer the most through no fault of their own.



I suspect that those who came from the Royal Foundation have been replaced already and even if they haven't, I doubt the door is open for a return. It's hard to return when you decided the grass would be greener on the other side and then got burned. Not exactly the ideal employees for the Royal Foundation when they essentially chose sides and were just unlucky enough for it to play out the way that it did.



I agree. I've said for awhile now that I don't really see him returning even for family events. At first I thought he might come back alone for those things but at this point I'd be surprised if even he comes back for anything. I certainly would be surprised, to say the least, to see them all back for any of those events.

I admit, however, that my negativity comes from my natural born pessimism. Nothing Harry has said or done actually proves he won’t return for such events - of course nothing he’s said or done proves he WILL return either, but my point is that my opinion is based on...no information, lol.

What is the Royal Foundation? Thanks !

 

[Osipi]

I'm not sure what the distinction is between personal & royal monies. What is the source of Charles "personal money"? If it's inheritance from the late Queen Mother then she had no money of her own (earned or from the Bowes-Lyons) just what was left to her by her husband. What was the source of that money? It certainly wasn't any sort of earned income.

Charles has money because his immediate ancestors had money. That money came from the public purse/ancient duchies in one form or other. I'm not so sure the British public would therefore be quite so sanguine.

The money that goes to Charles from the Duchy of Cornwall is his private income as that is the reason the Duchy of Cornwall was created all those hundreds of years ago in 1337. It is Charles' to do as he pleases with it and it will continue on to earn funds for future Dukes of Cornwall into the future.

In itemization (as we all can do with our income tax forms), Charles' income is divided into groups. Official expenditures such as staff, offices, supporting his family in their work etc are tax deductible. The private expenditures like buying Catherine a bracelet, Camilla a new pearl choker or a work of art and even splurging on a Big Mac are his private spending and he pays income tax on that like all the rest of us do.

If he chooses to still support Harry from his Duchy of Cornwall income, the difference would be that it would be listed under "private expenditures" rather than "official expenditures". Its in the public domain exactly how Charles spends his money.

https://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/annual-review/2018-2019/income-expenditure-and-staff

 

[Betsypaige]

I'm not sure what the distinction is between personal & royal monies. What is the source of Charles "personal money"? If it's inheritance from the late Queen Mother then she had no money of her own (earned or from the Bowes-Lyons) just what was left to her by her husband. What was the source of that money? It certainly wasn't any sort of earned income.

Charles has money because his immediate ancestors had money. That money came from the public purse/ancient duchies in one form or other. I'm not so sure the British public would therefore be quite so sanguine.

Good point. Well in this case, there’s nothing to be done about it. Charles isn’t going to let his youngest son completely leave the nest without any sort of support - though I believe that once Harry is a success (assuming), he will likely withdraw the support.


Heather:

Truthfully, I suspect that was their proposal because they knew it would look better than simply saying "we're out." Anytime you enter into negotiations about anything you shoot high and understand that you can always work down but you can't go back up. In this case, if you say that you want to work part time and then they tell you "no" you can say "well we tried" and go on about your business as you wanted to in the first place. That's my take on it anyway, especially because Harry would have known or should have known that they weren't going to be allowed to do the half in/half out.

That’s the truth - good point.

Osipi, thanks for the info!

Muriel, the Disney thing is so un-Royal like and awkward ...

 

[O-H Anglophile]

...

What is the Royal Foundation? Thanks !

The Cambridges's Foundation--that was originally William & Harry's Foundation, then added their wives after their marriages (The Royal Foundation of the Duke & Duchess of Cambridge and the Duke & Duchess of Sussex)-- before the split in two last year.

 

[Durham]

The money that goes to Charles from the Duchy of Cornwall is his private income as that is the reason the Duchy of Cornwall was created all those hundreds of years ago in 1337. It is Charles' to do as he pleases with it and it will continue on to earn funds for future Dukes of Cornwall into the future.

In itemization (as we all can do with our income tax forms), Charles' income is divided into groups. Official expenditures such as staff, offices, supporting his family in their work etc are tax deductible. The private expenditures like buying Catherine a bracelet, Camilla a new pearl choker or a work of art and even splurging on a Big Mac are his private spending and he pays income tax on that like all the rest of us do.

If he chooses to still support Harry from his Duchy of Cornwall income, the difference would be that it would be listed under "private expenditures" rather than "official expenditures". Its in the public domain exactly how Charles spends his money.

https://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/annual-review/2018-2019/income-expenditure-and-staff

Well yes he can do what he wants with his income but he has to be seen to be using it in supporting the crown. Nobody is suggesting he lets son no 2 go hungry but there has to be some sort of proportionate limit.

 

[Osipi]

Well yes he can do what he wants with his income but he has to be seen to be using it in supporting the crown. Nobody is suggesting he lets son no 2 go hungry but there has to be some sort of proportionate limit.

That's the kicker. Who has the right to tell Charles how to spend his personal income? To be honest here, Charles could have used his Duchy of Cornwall income since day one to be a playboy prince, travel the globe and live the life of the extremely rich and famous, have his own personal table at the casinos in Monte Carlo and a fleet of yachts.

What he has done in his lifetime with the Duchy of Cornwall is something that no other Duke before him has done. He's worked diligently to increase the Duchy, support his family in their official roles and has even turned a Duchy property, Highgrove, into a sustainable example of what can be done.

He didn't have to and doesn't have to be "seen" to be doing anything with his private income other than what he chooses to do with it. ?

He's well within his right to buy Harry and Meghan their own private island somewhere if he chooses to. He also has the right to tell Harry and Meghan that he'll only support them if they reside on the Inner Solomon Islands and raise penguins. Its totally at his discretion.

 

[Durham]

That's the kicker. Who has the right to tell Charles how to spend his personal income? To be honest here, Charles could have used his Duchy of Cornwall income since day one to be a playboy prince, travel the globe and live the life of the extremely rich and famous, have his own personal table at the casinos in Monte Carlo and a fleet of yachts.

What he has done in his lifetime with the Duchy of Cornwall is something that no other Duke before him has done. He's worked diligently to increase the Duchy, support his family in their official roles and has even turned a Duchy property, Highgrove, into a sustainable example of what can be done.

He didn't have to and doesn't have to be "seen" to be doing anything with his private income other than what he chooses to do with it. ?

He's well within his right to buy Harry and Meghan their own private island somewhere if he chooses to. He also has the right to tell Harry and Meghan that he'll only support them if they reside on the Inner Solomon Islands and raise penguins. Its totally at his discretion.

Up to a point. Any modern Duke of Cornwall has to be sensitive to public opinion.

 

[Denville]

In fact, staying at Frogmore would have pretty much ensured that they wouldn’t have to deal with an intrusive media.



Denville, but the point is that Harry and Meghan were fine with living half the year in the UK. You’re saying that they really didn’t want to live in the UK at all if they didn’t have to....but then, if that’s true, why did they even propose a half and half situation unless it was to appease the Queen and Charles?

I presume they did want to continue with royal duties, perhaps out of a sense of duty, perhaps hoping to appease the queen
but if the had no royal duties and they had been told "you can dedicate yourself full time to earning a living,!" it was likely that it would be eiaser to do that abroad. And I think that Meg realy didn't like the UK, so possibly Harry felt that full time abroad life was going to make her happier...

 

[Osipi]

Up to a point. Any modern Duke of Cornwall has to be sensitive to public opinion.

To be fair, Charles does. The public sees him voluntarily paying taxes.

But anyways, we're digressing away from the topic of the transition. Lets just say that Charles is within his right to support Harry and Meghan if he chooses to do so. There are no checks and balances that would prevent him from doing so.

Or he could buy the world a Coke and a Big Mac. I'm hungry.

 

[Denville]

That's the kicker. Who has the right to tell Charles how to spend his personal income? To be honest here, Charles could have used his Duchy of Cornwall income since day one to be a playboy prince, travel the globe and live the life of the extremely rich and famous, have his own personal table at the casinos in Monte Carlo and a fleet of yachts.

What he has done in his lifetime with the Duchy of Cornwall is something that no other Duke before him has done. He's worked diligently to increase the Duchy, support his family in their official roles and has even turned a Duchy property, Highgrove, into a sustainable example of what can be done.

He didn't have to and doesn't have to be "seen" to be doing anything with his private income other than what he chooses to do with it. ?

He's well within his right to buy Harry and Meghan their own private island somewhere if he chooses to. He also has the right to tell Harry and Meghan that he'll only support them if they reside on the Inner Solomon Islands and raise penguins. Its totally at his discretion.

It may be technically but if he were to do something like that, I can imagine the screams from public opinion. It is not entirely his private income, but what he owns as Duke of Cornwall..

Truthfully, I suspect that was their proposal because they knew it would look better than simply saying "we're out." Anytime you enter into negotiations about anything you shoot high and understand that you can always work down but you can't go back up. In this case, if you say that you want to work part time and then they tell you "no" you can say "well we tried" and go on about your business as you wanted to in the first place. That's my take on it anyway, especially because Harry would have known or should have known that they weren't going to be allowed to do the half in/half out.

Im not sure he did. I think he thought it would be a good compromise between the usual duties expected of him as a royal and his desire to be a private person and to please his wife, who was increasingly unhappy with Britain and the Press. He problably thought that they could spend part of their time in Canada and doing work in the US that would bring in money, and part of it in the UK.. doing royal duties. that way Meg would not have to put up with the press full time.. nor would he. I don't think he really saw that there IS a gap between money making activities and service to the crown..I think he did believe that the queen might agree to it and he didn't take into account the logistitcs of moving back and forth with a small child etc.

 

[Durham]

To be fair, Charles does. The public sees him voluntarily paying taxes.

But anyways, we're digressing away from the topic of the transition. Lets just say that Charles is within his right to support Harry and Meghan if he chooses to do so. There are no checks and balances that would prevent him from doing so.

Or he could buy the world a Coke and a Big Mac. I'm hungry.

I think we have a near consensus! I'll settle for yes he can but he would be well advised to make it as modest as possible. After all a "quiet life" should be, by any definition, a cheap one

 

[Somebody]

I am very curious to see where they end up and how they solve the visa situation if they decide they'd like to live in Canada.

What would the visa process for Harry be like if he was to join his wife and son (American citizens) to the USA?

I am also interested to see how they plan "to raise our son with an appreciation for the royal tradition into which he was born" in their post-royal life.

 

[Pranter]

But other parents don't fund one child from what is essentially a trust fund for another child.
Duchy funds are earmarked for William, not Harry.

As for a future home, I'm convinced they will end up with a mansion in the Hollywood Hills.

The Duchy is the DoC, whomever he is and has been since something like the 1300's ...he's not depriving any future DoC of anything William will Inherit much more at some point. I daresay they can funnel a few million to the second son without it making William or George or any future Monarch homeless. I assume you will have the same issue with William giving Louis any funds when he is the DoC?

There is absolutely nothing in either of their backgrounds to indicate they want to live in a mansion in HH. That is fantasy.



LaRae

 

[acdc1]

I am very curious to see where they end up and how they solve the visa situation if they decide they'd like to live in Canada.

What would the visa process for Harry be like if he was to join his wife and son (American citizens) to the USA?

I am also interested to see how they plan "to raise our son with an appreciation for the royal tradition into which he was born" in their post-royal life.

I’m curious about this, too. It seems like Canada is the preferred place to settle, but neither of the three are Canadian citizens.

As Meghan’s spouse, Harry is the immediate relative of a US citizen which gives him the ability to be a lawful permanent resident of the US (aka get a Green Card) if he meets the requirements. There’s a lot of eligibility requirements but looking through them it looks like he does indeed meet them and wouldn’t be considered inadmissible, so he could probably get a Green Card pretty easily.

I’m interested in seeing what happens about Meghan gaining UK citizenship. I don’t believe she will because you have to live there for at least 9 months of the year and I don’t see them doing that, it’s been made very clear that they’ll be settling in North America for the most part. It will be interesting if they do settle in the US rather than Canada if Harry becomes a US citizen. Have there been any members of the royal family who became US citizens? Obviously Meghan and Archie are, and I believe one of Freddy Windsor’s daughters who was born in America has dual citizenship (but they appear to be living and raising the girls in the UK), but other than that I can’t think of any?

 

[Betsypaige]

The Cambridges's Foundation--that was originally William & Harry's Foundation, then added their wives after their marriages (The Royal Foundation of the Duke & Duchess of Cambridge and the Duke & Duchess of Sussex)-- before the split in two last year.

Thanks! So, employees of the Cambridges and Sussexes came from the RF?

 

[_Heather_]

Thanks! So, employees of the Cambridges and Sussexes came from the RF?

When they were all a part of one foundation that foundation employed several people in lots of different roles. When Harry and Meghan decided to leave that foundation, some employees went with them to become "Sussex Only" employees and were no longer employed by the Royal Foundation. Now those that chose to leave the Royal Foundation to become employees of the Sussexes have found themselves without jobs. Both the Cambridges and the Sussexes have their own personal teams and then there's a team that operates the Royal Foundation. Some Royal Foundation employees chose to leave to become part of Team Sussex.

 

[Betsypaige]

When they were all a part of one foundation that foundation employed several people in lots of different roles. When Harry and Meghan decided to leave that foundation, some employees went with them to become "Sussex Only" employees and were no longer employed by the Royal Foundation. Now those that chose to leave the Royal Foundation to become employees of the Sussexes have found themselves without jobs.

Oh wow......so, their repayment for loyalty to the Sussexes was to be laid off, with pretty much no potential to be reassigned. It would have been nice had Harry and Meghan taken the time to try and find positions for these people before flying off to Canada. I'm sad and annoyed all at the same time.

 

[Lumutqueen]

It’s amazing how genuinely stupid their PR machine has been these past couple of days. There is no way they couldn’t have known this redundancy story wouldn’t hit the news, and then they publish essentially a “job advert” of a social media video at the same time, it’s ridiculous.

 

[Zaira]

Oh wow......so, their repayment for loyalty to the Sussexes was to be laid off, with pretty much no potential to be reassigned. It would have been nice had Harry and Meghan taken the time to try and find positions for these people before flying off to Canada. I'm sad and annoyed all at the same time.

How do you know they are not working with their staff to help them land in other great positions?

Some, like Marnie, have been offered other roles in the household but have decided to take the severance package if you read the reporting. Fiona was seconded from Whitehall and will just go back to being a diplomat.

In terms of the Foundation staff, none have been announce beyond their board so it isn't true that they poached staff from the joint foundation. People are conflating the foundation with the royal household.

Staff reshuffle or are made redundant all the time. The Cambridges made some staff redundant last year.

I am honestly perplexed that people are making a big deal out of this. They wanted to still do royal work while pursuing financial independence, the Queen said no. It makes sense that they will not maintain a full staff.

 

[ladongas]

Am I mistaken, or are most royal positions rather poorly-paid in comparison to jobs on the outside?

 

[Somebody]

I’m interested in seeing what happens about Meghan gaining UK citizenship. I don’t believe she will because you have to live there for at least 9 months of the year and I don’t see them doing that, it’s been made very clear that they’ll be settling in North America for the most part.

That one is fairly easy I'd say: she is NOT going to be come a UK citizen. Unless their plans drastically change, she is not going to meet the requirements and I expect everyone to be savvy enough not to break the rules for her.

It will be interesting if they do settle in the US rather than Canada if Harry becomes a US citizen. Have there been any members of the royal family who became US citizens? Obviously Meghan and Archie are, and I believe one of Freddy Windsor’s daughters who was born in America has dual citizenship (but they appear to be living and raising the girls in the UK), but other than that I can’t think of any?

I don't think Harry can sincerely take the oath (that would be a huge blow to his father or brother (assuming it won't happen in his grandmother's lifetime)) but I also read that there is the option to modify or waiver, so if he would want to become a US citizen that would be the way to go.

Naturalization Oath of Allegiance;
"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Note: In certain circumstances there can be a modification or waiver of the Oath of Allegiance. Read Chapter 5 of A Guide to Naturalization for more information.

Source: US CIS

 

[Denville]

Its going to be kind of awkard isn't it? Wife of a Prince.. in line to the British throne and she's not a British citizen...

 

[_Heather_]

Source: US CIS

I don't know enough about these types of laws to comment definitively but it appears to me that should Harry decide to pursue US citizenship, he'll need to decide whether or not that oath or the oath of allegiance he'll be required to swear to the next sovereign will be more important. If I'm reading that correctly he won't be able to swear allegiance during the coronation as he would typically do AND still take the oath of allegiance as a US citizen. Correct?

Its going to be kind of awkard isn't it? Wife of a Prince.. in line to the British throne and she's not a British citizen...

I'm somewhat certain they've long ago stopped caring about what might be seen as "awkward." This is a big part of the reason, though, that some posters have openly wondered about what lies ahead after this transition period and whether they will, after some time, abdicate or renounce Harry's place in the line of succession. Particularly because the future coronations he'd be expected to participate in as someone in the line of succession might be rather awkward and even possibly impossible as I noted above with my question about the oaths.

 

[CrownPrincessJava]

I don't know enough about these types of laws to comment definitively but it appears to me that should Harry decide to pursue US citizenship, he'll need to decide whether or not that oath or the oath of allegiance he'll be required to swear to the next sovereign will be more important. If I'm reading that correctly he won't be able to swear allegiance during the coronation as he would typically do AND still take the oath of allegiance as a US citizen. Correct?

It sounds like most people here have forgotten a little concept called DUAL CITIZENSHIP.

Honestly, the discussion here is sounding like Prince Harry will be charged with treason. If he pursues dual, he can still swear to the next soverign, just like every other dual UK, Australian, Canadian must swear allegiance to the Queen/King.

 

[Somebody]

I wonder from what moment on Harry is no longer considered to be 'domiciled' in the UK; as in that case he no longer meets the requirement to be a Counsellor of State, meaning Princess Beatrice of York will take over (assuming that she is domiciled in the UK).

What would be the definition for domiciled? Their official address? Where they spend most time?

Edit: according to Wikipedia:

In law, domicile is the status or attribution of being a lawful permanent resident in a particular jurisdiction.

So, as long as Harry is considered a 'temporary resident' elsewhere, he could be considered to still be domiciled in the UK?!

It sounds like most people here have forgotten a little concept called DUAL CITIZENSHIP.

Honestly, the discussion here is sounding like Prince Harry will be charged with treason. If he pursues dual, he can still swear to the next soverign, just like every other dual UK, Australian, Canadian must swear allegiance to the Queen/King.

Did you read the naturalization oath of allegiance? Upon becoming a US citizen he has to swear to "renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity" to a foreign "power"; so, to his own close family members! So, while a dual citizenship from birth is no problem. And most countries don't require a person to utter such strong language (or more extreme: will require you to give up your previous citizenship), in this case it would be extremely awkward and disingenuous.

A dual UK, Australian and Canadian citizenship is very different: they share the same head of state...

 

[Durham]

It sounds like most people here have forgotten a little concept called DUAL CITIZENSHIP.

Honestly, the discussion here is sounding like Prince Harry will be charged with treason. If he pursues dual, he can still swear to the next soverign, just like every other dual UK, Australian, Canadian must swear allegiance to the Queen/King.

The American Republic was founded as a very clear rejection of the British monarchy, a repudiation of the The Queen's paternal grandmother's great grandfather in fact.

Just putting it out there - as they say across the pond

 

[acdc1]

That one is fairly easy I'd say: she is NOT going to be come a UK citizen. Unless their plans drastically change, she is not going to meet the requirements and I expect everyone to be savvy enough not to break the rules for her.



I don't think Harry can sincerely take the oath (that would be a huge blow to his father or brother (assuming it won't happen in his grandmother's lifetime)) but I also read that there is the option to modify or waiver, so if he would want to become a US citizen that would be the way to go.


Source: US CIS

Obviously there’s the option of dual citizenship, one wouldn’t expect Harry to give up his British citizenship completely. I’m guessing that’s where the modification would come in?