Princess Madeleine & Family Moving to Florida: August 2018

[LadyFinn]

Why is there a need to have them give up their titles or step out of the line of succession?
They’ve got their titles because of who they are and not because of what they do.

Many people, and I'm one of them, think that royal titles and a place in the line of succession, also bring many responsibilities to the people. And if you don't feel that you have to do your job and take care of your responsibilities, you shouldn't have a title and you shouldn't be in the line of succession.
For instance, Carl Philip is the duke of Värmland and Sofia the duchess of Värmland. Carl Philip has always done work events in Värmland. In August 2015 Carl Philip and Sofia made a two day visit to Värmland. In October 2016 Carl Philip and Sofia made a one day visit to Värmland. Carl Philip visited Värmland alone in February 2016, February 2017 and May 2018. Carl Philip is also the patron of Rally Sweden, which is driven in Värmland every year and Carl Philip visits the rally every year.
I also believe, that if you are a prince/princess of Sweden, you should be interested in the "common" people of your country, and do work events around Sweden, meet the people of Sweden and discuss with them.

 

[Princess B]

I think that they will eventually return to Sweden.
For some reason I don’t see Chris and Madeleine together for long.
Madeleine will return to Sweden, though by then Leonore may lose her place in succession.
I hope they return in time for Leonore to keep her place (if they decide to ever return)

 

[Lady Nimue]

I think that they will eventually return to Sweden.
For some reason I don’t see Chris and Madeleine together for long.
Madeleine will return to Sweden, though by then Leonore may lose her place in succession.
I hope they return in time for Leonore to keep her place (if they decide to ever return)

For a couple not going to be together long they are popping out babies pretty fast. Something must be going right.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Many people, and I'm one of them, think that royal titles and a place in the line of succession, also bring many responsibilities to the people. And if you don't feel that you have to do your job and take care of your responsibilities, you shouldn't have a title and you shouldn't be in the line of succession.
For instance, Carl Philip is the duke of Värmland and Sofia the duchess of Värmland. Carl Philip has always done work events in Värmland. In August 2015 Carl Philip and Sofia made a two day visit to Värmland. In October 2016 Carl Philip and Sofia made a one day visit to Värmland. Carl Philip visited Värmland alone in February 2016, February 2017 and May 2018. Carl Philip is also the patron of Rally Sweden, which is driven in Värmland every year and Carl Philip visits the rally every year.
I also believe, that if you are a prince/princess of Sweden, you should be interested in the "common" people of your country, and do work events around Sweden, meet the people of Sweden and discuss with them.

If a "job" with "work events" goes along with the titles, then a salary should also go along with the title and not just compensation for work expenses. My opinion. I see the titles as a courtesy for close relationship with the King-children and grandchildren. I agree HRH/prince or princess titles should not continue for Carl Phillip's or Madeleine's grandchildren.

 

[Mbruno]

If a "job" with "work events" goes along with the titles, then a salary should also go along with the title and not just compensation for work expenses. My opinion.

I think the point is not so much the “ work events”, but rather that the ducal titles of the princes of Sweden imply an association with a particular region in the country. That is evidenced by a newborn prince or princess getting gifts from the people of his/ her duchy or incorporating the arms of the provinces within his/her duchy into his/ her own personal coat of arms. How could Madeleine’s children keep that connection for example if they live in the United States ?

 

[Princess B]

For a couple not going to be together long they are popping out babies pretty fast. Something must be going right.

I know! But something tells me that Chris will never want to settle down in Sweden, and Madeleine may want just that.
There will be differences and probably separation. Just my gut feeling

 

[JR76]

My personal opinion and one I think is shared by many of those Swedes who even care about Princess Madeleine and her family is that to be a Prince/ss of Sweden you should live in the country and do work representing the county. If that's not your intention you could take a step back and model your life on that of the King's sisters who although not being public figures have alway been ready to step in if needed. Princess Christina more so than his other sisters.
That Madeleine's children have titles is, again to me, a consequence of the absolute primogeniture. You can't introduce something like this in the name of equality and then debate the rights of certain individuals just because their mother partied a bit to much in her teens.
A solution to this would be something like the Dutch and Monegasque system where membership of the Royal house is regulated by your degree of consanguinity to the monarch.
That said, being both a traditionalist, I do hope that some title will be arranged for the sons of Carl Philip signalling them being the only ones who can continue the Bernadotte dynasty.

 

[Princess]

I know! But something tells me that Chris will never want to settle down in Sweden, and Madeleine may want just that.
There will be differences and probably separation. Just my gut feeling

I also do not think Chris will settle down in Sweden.
To be honest, I never really know what to think about Chris. He often looks like somebody has stolen his newspaper out of the postbox.

I did see Madeleine change into a (sorry but I cannot find another word) "rich" girl. Totally in contrast to her siblings or what for me the SRF stands for: warmth, naturalness, down to earth, being a part of Sweden.
She matches a lot with her husbands family, and for me they are total opposite of the SRF.
Maybe that it what people also "blame" her for?

 

[LadyFinn]

Hänt Extra writes about Chris's tough ultimatum
Madde suffering in silence
http://imageupper.com/i/?S1200010020011J15343081971976985

Stoppa pressarna about the move
Chris forced Madeleine to move to Florida
It was he who got Madeleine and the children to leave everything for a new life in the United States.
The reason: his own career and the strong desire for success.
Stoppa pressarna could reveal last week that the main reason for the Florida move is Chris O'Neill's own career. He hopes that the business will go a lot better in the United States than in London where his company Wilton Payments has been close to bankruptcy. For several years, the company has been rescued from liquidation by Chris's brother-in-law Henry d'Abo, who lent millions of millions to cover all losses.
That the family moves to Florida because of Chris O'Neill is now confirmed by other sources.
- It is obvious that Chris is in charge of the family and that he made a hard ultimatum to Madde and demanded to live in the United States to engage in his business that went badly late. It feels like Madde is forced to leave Sweden again, says a source of Hänt i Veckan this week, describing the decision as a "forced move".
Chris tvingade Madeleine att flytta till USA _ Stoppa Pressarna

Svensk Damtidning writes also this week about the move, on the cover:
Now we know why they are moving
Therefore Sweden is too small for Chris O'Neill
https://media.pressbyran.se/article/image/zoom/ts_0478_201834.jpg

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Is this a reputable source or a tabloid?

Over here, a lot of financial companies are setting up main offices in Palm Beach, in part due to the Florida taxes and migration to the area by the wealthy with our tax overhauls.

 

[JR76]

Is this a reputable source or a tabloid?

Over here, a lot of financial companies are setting up main offices in Palm Beach, in part due to the Florida taxes and migration to the area by the wealthy with our tax overhauls.

Neither Hänt Extra nor Stoppa Pressarna can be seen as reliable. Cheap tabloids that often make things up from thin air. That said, they've been right a few times.

 

[Biri]

They are making Chris a home tyrant.

 

[_Heather_]

To be honest, I never really know what to think about Chris. He often looks like somebody has stolen his newspaper out of the postbox.

I think that's a perfect way to describe Chris...I, too, never really know what to think about him. He never seems to look very happy. I realize, though, that we're seeing him at public events rather than at home with Madeleine and the children and maybe he just doesn't enjoy the public events part of their life. I, too, though get the feeling that if Chris has his way Sweden will never be their permanent home. I have absolutely nothing to back that up with and it's just the impression that I've gotten from him over the years but if that's actually the case it may very well be a point of serious contention between he and Madeleine as the years go by. I'd hope they'd be able to strike a compromise but I'm sure Madeleine could easily feel caught in the middle.

 

[QueenPenny]

I know! But something tells me that Chris will never want to settle down in Sweden, and Madeleine may want just that.
There will be differences and probably separation. Just my gut feeling

I have the same feeling.

To me, having babies does not necessarily mean a strong relationship between the parents. How many babies are born of one-night stands (or worse)? And what about so called band-aid babies? Maury Povich would be out of a job if only loving monogamous couples procreated ? Not saying anything specific about Madeleine & Chris, just that I would not automatically presume that a baby = love

Chris is the doppelgänger of my cousin's husband, who always has a smile on his face. I think of Chris as grumpy Stu

 

[GracieGiraffe]

Not sure why anyone thinks Madeleine wants to live in Sweden. It’s not like Chris dragged her kicking and screaming out of the country. She was living in New York for some time when they met and it doesn’t appear she was unhappy. She didn’t go running back to give birth to Leonor either. I think it was familial pressure that brought her back.

 

[Lady Nimue]

Not sure why anyone thinks Madeleine wants to live in Sweden.

She's mentioned it in interviews. Took me by surprise.

It’s not like Chris dragged her kicking and screaming out of the country.

Interesting image. Who knows? Ha! It still doesn't compute for me given what has gone before, but then, I am not 'in the know'. Maybe Madeleine really likes Florida.

She was living in New York for some time when they met and it doesn’t appear she was unhappy. She didn’t go running back to give birth to Leonor either. I think it was familial pressure that brought her back.

You might be right. There's just so many bugs (and other things) in Florida. Not my choice.

Over here, a lot of financial companies are setting up main offices in Palm Beach, in part due to the Florida taxes and migration to the area by the wealthy with our tax overhauls.

Ah!

 

[Princess]

I somehow really believe Madeleine would like to live in Sweden.

It's difficult to explain in english, I try:
Sweden might not be as snobby as Chris is used to. London is more of this than Sweden ever will be, Florida maybe as well.
My experience with Sweden (Scandinavian countries in general) is that the country and the people are very down to earth, natural, warm. There is so much about family, getting together, being in the nature.

I cannot say that I find anything natural about Chris and his family. As far as I know it is common in the U.S. to show your richness. My house, my boat, my plane, my cars. To say so, Chris and his family are a prime example of this way of life.
Madeleine moved to this direction within the last years, but I think there is still the swedish girl which shines through some times.
When at official duties with Chris, she often looks fraught up. She opens up her eyes in a strange way then and her smile appears a little frozen and stiff, which I don't see when she has official duties without Chris. Natural and unnatural smile, so to speak.

It's okay if Chris does not like all of this. But, he knew to whom he got married. Living your very old life when getting married to the daughter of the King of Sweden is almost impossible as long as your wife doesn't decide to become a "civil" person for you (as far as this is possible for a princess).
And that is why I think, at long sight, Madeleine has to decide which way to go. And I think that she will not give up Sweden permanently.

I don't know, Chris never was my cup of tea, from the very beginning. I can't even explain why. I never got warm with him for some reason.
I guess Chris never really had a chance, right from the beginning. A fact that, in addition, complicates everything even more.

 

[Somebody]

Many people, and I'm one of them, think that royal titles and a place in the line of succession, also bring many responsibilities to the people. And if you don't feel that you have to do your job and take care of your responsibilities, you shouldn't have a title and you shouldn't be in the line of succession.
(...)
I also believe, that if you are a prince/princess of Sweden, you should be interested in the "common" people of your country, and do work events around Sweden, meet the people of Sweden and discuss with them.

The main reason a country would want a sufficiently long line of succession is to avoid becoming extinct. So, from that perspective it doesn't necessarily require each one of those in line to also carry out royal duties as the number of duties to be carried out is limited.

 

[Mbruno]

The main reason a country would want a sufficiently long line of succession is to avoid becoming extinct. So, from that perspective it doesn't necessarily require each one of those in line to also carry out royal duties as the number of duties to be carried out is limited.

I see no problem in an unlimited line of succession as long as the number of HRHs is limited. I don’t know the exact figures, but there must be e.g. over 2000 people who could potentially succeed to the British throne, but there are only 15 HRHs by birth in the UK and five of them ( Beatrice, Eugenie, and William’s three children) don’t have royal duties, which reduces the number of working princes/ princesses to 10 plus female consorts when applicable. If Prince Michael of Kent is also included in the class of non-full-time royals, then the number of working blood HRHs in the UK is even lower ( only nine).

Personally, I think that adult HRHs should be full-time royals, although I know that is not the case anymore in some countries, see e.g Infanta Elena in Spain or Prince Constantijn in the Netherlands.

 

[LadyFinn]

The main reason a country would want a sufficiently long line of succession is to avoid becoming extinct. So, from that perspective it doesn't necessarily require each one of those in line to also carry out royal duties as the number of duties to be carried out is limited.

Princess Christina hasn't been in the line of succession, but she has still done a lot of duties which a person who is in the line of succession (or his/her spouse) could very well have done:
- Christina was the Honorary Chairman of the Heart-Lung Foundation 1971-2014, in May 2014 Daniel started as the Honorary Chairman
- Christina was the Honorary Chairperson of Sophiahemmet 1972-2015, in the beginning of 2016 king Carl Gustaf decided that Sofia replaced Christina
- Christina is the Chairperson of the Board of Confidencen Ulriksdal Palace Theatre and the Honorary Chairperson of Confidencen Rediviva
- Christina is the Honorary Chairman of Crown Princess Margareta Foundation for the Visually Handicapped
- Christina is the Honorary Chairperson of Solstickan Foundation and has delivered Solstickepriset every year.
- Christina is the Honorary Chairman of SWEA (Swedish Women's Educational Association) International
- Christina is the Honorary Chairman of the Board of Kultur & Näringsliv
- Christina was active in Red Cross for many years. She started as a volunteer in 1973, acting as an ambassador for the Red Cross' humanitarian values and the international human rights. Christina was also active in the work for a total ban on landmines. In 1986 she was elected into the Swedish Red Cross' board, in 1993 she was elected as chairman, she was the Chairman of the Swedish Red Cross until 2002. In 1995-2003, she was also an elected member of the International Red Cross' Permanent Commission. Christina received Henry Dunant medal for her service in Red Cross.
- Christina is very much involved in the work of the Royal College of Music and has delivered the Jan Wallander Prize during many years
- Christina was the chairman of Karolinska Institute's 200-year campaign "Breakthrough for Life".
- Christina has been very active at The Friends of the Nationalmuseum, now her son Oscar is a member of the Board.
- Christina has delivered the Carina Ari Medal and scholarships in many years. The Carina Ari Memorial foundation's purpose is to develop and support Swedish dance.
- Christina is the patron of Time to Act -campaign, UNHCR's global fundraising campaign to provide Syrian refugee children the opportunity to go to school.
- Christina has in many years delivered the scholarships from King Gustaf V and Queen Victoria's Foundation of Freemasons.
- Christina is the patron of Sweden-Japan Society

These are only part of princess Christina's duties, and during the years she has done many work events which the members of the Royal family also do (for instance delivered the Royal Patriotic Society Medals and Micael Bindefeld Foundation's scholarship), if the members of the royal family have been busy elsewhere.
And since Christina now retires from her duties, at least part of these are that kind of duties, which a member of the royal family should do. So there would be a lot to do for instance for Sofia and Madeleine.

 

[O-H Anglophile]

And she was doing that to support her brother when it was only him and Prince Bertil and then him, his wife and Prince Bertil. Now there are Victoria, Daniel, Carl Philip and Sofia.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The main reason a country would want a sufficiently long line of succession is to avoid becoming extinct. So, from that perspective it doesn't necessarily require each one of those in line to also carry out royal duties as the number of duties to be carried out is limited.

I see no problem in an unlimited line of succession as long as the number of HRHs is limited. [...]

Personally, I think that adult HRHs should be full-time royals, although I know that is not the case anymore in some countries, see e.g Infanta Elena in Spain or Prince Constantijn in the Netherlands.

There are a couple of sizable problems with long lines of succession.

1. The problem with adults who carry out no royal duties being in the line of succession: Someone who has never carried out royal duties cannot be expected to be a competent monarch. Even individuals like Prince Daniel who come into royal families as consorts embark on months of prior preparation.

2. The problem with individuals who are not princesses or princes being in the line of succession: It is contradictory to ensure that someone would automatically be queen or king if something happened, but deny them the even lower role of princess or prince.

A more suitable approach to avoiding extinction of a monarchy is legislation requiring the appointment of a new monarch (someone who meets the requirements of the position) if there is no successor, as for example in the Norwegian Constitution:

Article 48
If the royal line has died out, and no successor to the throne has been designated, then a new Queen or King shall be chosen by the Storting.​

A solution to this would be something like the Dutch and Monegasque system where membership of the Royal house is regulated by your degree of consanguinity to the monarch.
That said, being both a traditionalist, I do hope that some title will be arranged for the sons of Carl Philip signalling them being the only ones who can continue the Bernadotte dynasty.

King Carl XVI Gustaf's choice to grant the duchy of Södermanland (and hence the lease and income from Stenhammar) to Alexander instead of Estelle or Oscar is a clear signal that he will try the utmost to ensure a fully royal future for Carl Philip's sons. But if he would signal that they are the only ones who can continue the dynasty, he would inescapably be saying that men can but women cannot.

Not sure why anyone thinks Madeleine wants to live in Sweden.

She's mentioned it in interviews.

That's right; see here:

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/kungligt/madeleine-chris-far-ofortjant-mycket-kritik/
http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/madeleine-kanner-mig-missforstadd/

 

[GracieGiraffe]

How is a Swedish princess ever going to say that she DOESN’T prefer to live in Sweden??? Actions speak louder than words.

 

[Mbruno]

How is a Swedish princess ever going to say that she DOESN’T prefer to live in Sweden??? Actions speak louder than words.

"Action" in this particular case would mean going against her husband's explicit will to live overseas. Most likely, since Chris appears to be unwilling to compromise, that would lead to a divorce. You cannot blame Madeleine for trying to save her marriage.


Madeleine is not the first woman to make personal sacrifices to meet the needs of her husband. That doesn't mean though that she would not have it otherwise if she had the choice.

 

[tihkon2]

"Action" in this particular case would mean going against her husband's explicit will to live overseas. Most likely, since Chris appears to be unwilling to compromise, that would lead to a divorce. You cannot blame Madeleine for trying to save her marriage.


Madeleine is not the first woman to make personal sacrifices to meet the needs of her husband. That doesn't mean though that she would not have it otherwise if she had the choice.

There is a gigantic load of speculation going on in this thread. None of us have any idea why they're moving. To put the "blame" on one party or the other is futile guesswork and posting our opinions as fact or even "most likely" is pure conjecture.

 

[WillVictoria]

There are a couple of sizable problems with long lines of succession.

1. The problem with adults who carry out no royal duties being in the line of succession: Someone who has never carried out royal duties cannot be expected to be a competent monarch. Even individuals like Prince Daniel who come into royal families as consorts embark on months of prior preparation.

2. The problem with individuals who are not princesses or princes being in the line of succession: It is contradictory to ensure that someone would automatically be queen or king if something happened, but deny them the even lower role of princess or prince.

A more suitable approach to avoiding extinction of a monarchy is legislation requiring the appointment of a new monarch (someone who meets the requirements of the position) if there is no successor, as for example in the Norwegian Constitution:

Article 48
If the royal line has died out, and no successor to the throne has been designated, then a new Queen or King shall be chosen by the Storting.​

1. To be fair, the chance that someone who's not an HRH or working royal will succeed to the throne is, at this point, slim to none. Getting one of the Phillipses on the the throne (the first people without the HRH/royal duties who aren't minors) would require some extreme tragedy, meaning it probably won't happen
2. The issue I could see with that is people saying "To heck with it, if we have to choose a new monarch we might as well just get rid of the thing entirely". In a King Ralph scenario, the point is to show continuity and the strength of the institution. If all the Bernadottes of the Norweigan RF suddenly disappeared for whatever reason, I have a feeling their respective countries would choose to go full on republic rather then conduct a search for a new monarch

 

[Stefan]

1. The issue I could see with that is people saying "To heck with it, if we have to choose a new monarch we might as well just get rid of the thing entirely". In a King Ralph scenario, the point is to show continuity and the strength of the institution. If all the Bernadottes of the Norweigan RF suddenly disappeared for whatever reason, I have a feeling their respective countries would choose to go full on republic rather then conduct a search for a new monarch

That is also what i think specially in Sweden where it often said that the members of the Parliament are more republicans then monarchists.

 

[Queen Claude]

I think that Madeleine wants to be in Sweden and is "playing the long game," it's not as if the moves in service to Chris' career have been to undesirable places. Madeleine's position as a Princess of Sweden is secure, yeah she has to tolerate her actions being analyzed and criticized by the Swedish media and royal watchers but I suspect for the most part she has a thick skin regarding the commentary, and when needed she and Chris will engage in PR tactics to polish up their images.

As stated before, I think that the position of the children is more the issue and I think that the relocation to Sweden will coincide with Leonor being school age, which I think some said in Sweden that's age seven. I think that after 7-8 years of Chris' needs being the driver, it would not be unreasonable for Madeleine's needs and wishes to be the driver. And just like I don't think that it was a great hardship for Madeleine to relocate to places like London and Florida to accommodate Chris, I don't think that it will be a hardship for Chris to spend some years in Sweden.

My take on Chris is that he is not all that put out by being married to a Swedish princess. While I have seen pictures of him looking exasperated or bored, I have also seen pictures of him looking quite alright with being part of royal life and Sweden's social scene.

 

[Mbruno]

There is a gigantic load of speculation going on in this thread. None of us have any idea why they're moving. To put the "blame" on one party or the other is futile guesswork and posting our opinions as fact or even "most likely" is pure conjecture.

Even if you dismiss the reports in the Swedish tabloids, Madeleine has said repeatedly and publicly that she would like to move back to Sweden. So, I don’t think it is mere conjecture or speculation on our part.

 

[LadyFinn]

And she was doing that to support her brother when it was only him and Prince Bertil and then him, his wife and Prince Bertil. Now there are Victoria, Daniel, Carl Philip and Sofia.

Obviously princess Christina has very much wanted to work for Sweden and the Swedes, even though she isn't in the line of succession and a Royal Highness. Some of her duties she started because she wanted to support her brother, but many she has started because of her personal interest. She has also worked very closely with the organizations she is honorary chairman or patron, not just giving her name to use at the website.

Svensk Damtidning about the move:
There are rumours that Madeleine and Chris have moved to a house close to Jesper and Mia Parnevik, who live in luxurious Jupiter Island in Florida. Madeleine and Chris socialize a lot with the Parneviks. Madeleine stayed at family Parnevik for some time when she went to USA after breaking up with Jonas.
In London the photographers were waiting outside the gate and it wasn't so nice for Madeleine and Chris, when they went to the playground, to be forced to the other side of the street not to be photographed. And of course the Swedes, and other people too, are interested in what the royal couple's youngest princess does. So there are a lot of questions now, why just Florida? It can't be because of Disney World, Universal Studios, Kennedy Space Center and Everglade National Park that they are moving, and not because of the beaches or 1250 golf courses.
Business and work are often the main reasons to move to another land. Because it can't be that the family hadn't had enough room at their very spacious floor in Chelsea?
Could it be that Chris is smart and thinks about the future, that it is better for his businesses to live in USA? Madeleine has been many times at charity galas in Florida, among them the Red Cross gala in Mar-A-Lago, Trump's private club.
With only a couple of years until Leonore starts school it could have been practical to move to Sweden. But Madeleine's home country is simply too small for a cosmopolite like Chris.
The children should go to a swedish school. Can family O'Neill bypass this? Madeleine is needed in Sweden now when the king and queen become older. As a princess she could take over many of princess Christina's duties. Madeleine's aunt has told that after having served the royal house for 45 years she gives her duties now to the younger generation.
Adrienne is still very young, but after a year Madeleine could jump in and represent Sweden. Crown princess Victoria, prince Daniel, prince Carl Philip and princess Sofia are already now carrying a big load. They are also parents of small children. Instead of princess duties in Sweden Madeleine will now work for Childhood in USA. Queen Silvia founded World Childhood Foundation and has done fantastic work with it. She is proud that Madeleine is involved in Childhood.
But the king and queen can't be very happy that their grandchildren live so far away. Eva O'Neill perhaps is happy, she lives in London, but she spends winters in Florida. She doesn't want to be seen or written at the press very much. Something she shares with Madeleine.
And there are a lot of Swedes who have moved to Florida, so Leonore, Nicolas and Adrienne should be able to make friends and speak swedish with them. It is important that the trio learns fluent swedish.