Royal Families of France

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Cory

The presence of HRH the Duke of Anjou was very important. It is not sure his mother will accept to become Duchess of Franco and so..He was there as a descendant of the House of Bourbon and with his Bourbon titles.

He has no Bourbon titles. He names himself Duc de Touraine, Duc d'Anjou and Duc de Bourbon, he names his sons Duc de Bourgogne and Duc de Berry, all historic French titles, but in essence his only link to France is his grandmother Emanuelle de Dampierre.

His far ancestor Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou solemnly renounced all his rights on the throne of France, for himself and for all his descendants. This has been notarized in legal documents and is ratified by all powers of the time. In front of witnesses, during a public ceremony, Philippe - Felipe V - solemnly swore with his hands on the Bible.

This strict separation of the two thrones was a condition by the powers. Thanks to this the Bourbons could gain the throne of Spain. When Luis Alfonso fights the legitimity of all this, he is in essence saying that his ancestors as Kings of Spain were "illegal" because they became King thanks to the very same acts and treaties he claims to be null and void...



When Luis Alfonso de Borbón is the rightful King of France, then I am the rightful Farao of Egypt... Come on... he is a comediant and he knows it. It is the same nonsense as the De Bourbon de Parmes creating Spanish titles, which are not recognized by anyone else. Luis Alfonso also is not the ainé des capétiens (the most senior male in the House of Capet), that is Charles de Bourbon-Busset, Comte de Busset (who was one of the guests in Souvigny, this weekend, so it seems).

[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by Marengo

A gathering of members of the Bourbon family in Paris, among them Don Luis Alfonso de Borbon (future duke of Franco), Anne of the Two Sicilies (Castro branch), Francoise of Bourbon-Parma, Tania of Bourbon-Parma, the duke and duchess of Seville etc.

Dîner des membres de la famille de Bourbon - Noblesse & Royautés

The gathering was not attended by prince Sixte-Henri of Bourbon-Parma.

I missed the Dutch, the Luxembourgian and the Austrian De Bourbon de Parmes. It seems a company around Charles Édouard de Lobkowicz (full cousin of the current Duke of Parma).

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair

He has no Bourbon titles. He names himself Duc de Touraine, Duc d'Anjou and Duc de Bourbon, he names his sons Duc de Bourgogne and Duc de Berry, all historic French titles, but in essence his only link to France is his grandmother Emmanuelle de Dampierre.

His far ancestor Philippe de Bourbon, Duc d'Anjou solemnly renounced all his rights on the throne of France, for himself and for all his descendants. This has been notarized in legal documents and is ratified by all powers of the time. In front of witnesses, during a public ceremony, Philippe - Felipe V - solemnly swore with his hands on the Bible.

This strict separation of the two thrones was a condition by the powers. Thanks to this the Bourbons could gain the throne of Spain. When Luis Alfonso fights the legitimity of all this, he is in essence saying that his ancestors as Kings of Spain were "illegal" because they became King thanks to the very same acts and treaties he claims to be null and void...



When Luis Alfonso de Borbón is the rightful King of France, then I am the rightful Farao of Egypt... Come on... he is a comediant and he knows it. It is the same nonsense as the De Bourbon de Parmes creating Spanish titles, which are not recognized by anyone else. Luis Alfonso also is not the ainé des capétiens (the most senior male in the House of Capet), that is Charles de Bourbon-Busset, Comte de Busset (who was one of the guests in Souvigny, this weekend, so it seems).

All his titles are French titles of the house of Bourbon.
The two Crowns cant be united because HRH the Duke of Anjou is not in line to the spanish Throne.

[Marengo]

He can call himself whatever he wants, I suppose. However that doesn't make the pretence true. If we start ignoring laws and treaties, what a mess the world would be. The crux of his claim is that some scary ultra-conservative French monarchists would prefer to see a dog on the vacant throne over a member of the house of Orleans. A pity that Don Luis Alfonso has allowed himself to be used for their hatred & agenda.

[MAfan]

Well, Luis Alfonso was there because he is a descendants of the House of Bourbon, just like the other attendants, and nobody can deny this fact.
I wouldn't read in his attendance any particular significance with regards to his claims and his claimed titles.

[Duc_et_Pair]

That is true but what Prince Sixte-Henri de Bourbon de Parme (himself an ultra-conservative anyway) finds unacceptable -and he has a point- is that the Spanish gentleman uses and distributes titles of the Maison de France. The other guests seem to support him or (more likely) pretend not to know his pretensions.

Prince Sixte-Henri is known for opening his Château de Lignières for assemblies and summer camps of the Centre royaliste d'action Française in full support of Prince Henri d'Orléans.

Picture: HRH Prince Sixte-Henri de Bourbon de Parme posing in one of the salons of the Château de Lignières

[Cory]

Prince Louis of Bourbon is a descendant of Louis XIV of France and represents the eldest Royal Line of the Bourbons.

[Duc_et_Pair]

I don't know in what capacity the Spanish gentleman was there. He can not have been there ais the ainé des capétiens, as that position is held by the Comte de Busset. He can not have been a representant of the House of Spain because he does not belong to that. He can not have been there as a representant of the House of France because he does not belong to that.

[JR76]

Well even if it is commonly acknowledged today by many people that the marriage that started the Busset line was canonically valid it was both at the time and up till today wasn't so by tradition Louis Alphonse has the role as Aine des Capetiens. If we were to include the Bussets we could might as well include the House of Braganza who although illegitimate in descent have an unbroken male-line descent from King Robert the Pious, himself son of the dynasty's founder King Hugh.

Sorry Duc, realised as soon as I had posted that you're pointing to the fact that the children of Queen Isabella II is quite certainly not the children of her husband.

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[Duc_et_Pair]

It was Prince Henri d'Orléans himself who remarked that those who love to rank the Capétiens according seniority, can not claim that Luis Alfonso is the ainé des capétiens because the Bourbon-Bussets are an example of descendants in the House of Capet with more seniority.

So three claims are discutable:

Luis Alfonso is the ainé des capétiens. No, there are more senior capets.

Luis Alfonso is the ainé of the Spanish royal capétiens. No, he does not belong to a royal Capet line since his grandfather renounced his Spanish rights for himself and his descendants.

Luis Alfonso is the ainé of the French royal capétiens. No, he does not belong to a royal Capet line since his forebearer Philippe d'Anjou renounced his French rights for himself and his descendants.

[JR76]

I've always found the Bourbons very confusing- all this constant bickering and infighting and added to that they seem to have intermarried more than the Pharaohs did. Not unusual to find people with four grandparents from the family or even up to 7 great-grandparents.

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[MAfan]

They (or at least some of them) have oftem reminded me the good old remark that "power wears out those who don't have it".

[JR76]

Originally Posted by MAfan

They (or at least some of them) have oftem reminded me the good old remark that "power wears out those who don't have it".

True even if wasn't exactly a harmonious family relationship they had at Versailles and Palais Royale it's nothing against how it turned out after the fall of the Second Empire.


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[Marengo]

Well, at least the present Bourbon / Orleans family members never voted to condemn another family member to death, so that could be considered a step in the right direction. Let's hope that relations continue to improve. I was surprised to see the Duke and Duchess of Chartres at the meeting.

Surprisingly the meeting was organised by a Lobcowicz and that had none of the heads of the various branches there. I believe the prince Lobcowicz did attend one (or more) of the Parma weddings recently, so the relationship must be cordial. Though I doubt his mother will be warmly regarded by the Dutch Parma princes.

Anyway, let's hope that by 2268 the family will have sorted their troubles as they celebrate their millenium in that year.

[JR76]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Well, at least the present Bourbon / Orleans family members after the revolution never voted to condemn another family member to death, so that could be considered a step in the right direction. Let's hope that relations continue to improve. I was surprised to see the Duke and Duchess of Chartres at the meeting.

Surprisingly the meeting was organised by a Lobcowicz and that had none of the heads of the various branches there. I believe the prince Lobcowicz did attend one (or more) of the Parma weddings recently, so the relationship must be cordial. Though I doubt his mother will be warmly regarded by the Dutch Parma princes.

Why? What did she do?


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[Duc_et_Pair]

Originally Posted by JR76

I've always found the Bourbons very confusing- all this constant bickering and infighting and added to that they seem to have intermarried more than the Pharaohs did. Not unusual to find people with four grandparents from the family or even up to 7 great-grandparents.

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That is true but all the royal and non-royal Bourbons together, from France, Spain, Parma, the Sicilies, etc formed a wide pool. When Xavier de Bourbon de Parme married Madeleine de Bourbon-Busset (grandparents of the current Duke of Parma), it sounds close: two Bourbons marrying, but their consanguity was very remote.

[Tilia C.]

My understanding of French is limited, but from the what I did understand of the interview with the Prince of Lobkowicz, I think that the meeting had a lot to do with promoting the region and the castle. The Prince of Lobkowicz is the only family member who still owns a castle that originates from the Bourbon family, so he invited his relatives. But most of the around 400 guests seem to have been officials, politicians and other important people from the region. So I assume that the meeting was not so much about the family, bringing the branches together or family politics, etc. So that explains why it was a Lobkowicz to head the whole event, and why the heads of the different branches did not attend.

[maria-olivia]

Tillia,
The Prince of Lobkowitz , is the only surviving Son of Princess Françoise . His two brothers died in tragic circumstances. I don't know if he is Royal Highness ?

There is hate since such a long time between Françoise and Sixte for the late Duc of Parma, his Children and their Sisters. No show up of them , they were not invited.

Prince Sixte owns the chateau of Lignières who will go to Princess Françoise Son , the Prince of L. Who hosted the party.

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by JR76

Why? What did she do?


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The problems between the Bourbon-Parmas started when, in the 1960-1970s, Duke Carlos Hugo, with the support of his younger sisters Marie Therese, Cécile and Marie des Neiges, promoted a "socialist" change in the politics of the Carlist movement; such change was opposed by Sixte Henri and by Princess Françoise, a well as by their mother Madeleine.
The result is that in the past 40 years the family is split, with no contacts between the two parties (with the exception, it seems, of Prince Charles Henri Lobkowicz, who attended some of his cousins' weddings in recent years).

A pity IMO, since - typical of the Bourbons - they are fighting over nothing.

[MAfan]

Originally Posted by Marengo

Well, at least the present Bourbon / Orleans family members never voted to condemn another family member to death, so that could be considered a step in the right direction.

Hopefully you're right, but who knows what would have happened if they had retained the power to inflict death sentences...