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  #1241  
Old 11-16-2008, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda View Post
Elspeth, I really don't think enough people in Britain care. There would surely be more of an uproar if money & parliamentary time was spent passing the relevant legislation to make 'Milla "Princess Consort" when there is so much more that needs legislative attention.
I have to say I agree with you.
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  #1242  
Old 11-16-2008, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Elspeth View Post
If public opinion is so opposed that it's considered by the government and senior civil service that it poses a danger to the survival of the monarchy, that would be a reason. I don't see it turning out that way, but I think they'd probably see Camilla's HM as a lesser sacrifice than risking the monarchy itself.
I agree. If the public remains adamantly opposed, then the PM will introduce legislation in the Commons to take care of it.

If there is enough advance warning of The Queen's death, it is also possible to issue letters patent before she dies making Camilla a Princess of the UK in her own right, with Parliament passing legislation consenting to the future wife of The King not holding the rank and title of Queen.

We'll just have to wait and see.
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  #1243  
Old 11-16-2008, 08:44 PM
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I'd prefer that Jesus not be brought into this conversation. But since you brought it up, He taught that people could be forgiven if they were sincerely sorry for what they'd done and had their lives changed (the technical term is "repentance"). He didn't teach that evil be ignored and not dealt with; and He taught very strict rules about adultery, divorce and remarriage.

In any case, I suspect that Camilla will be Queen one day.



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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Breaking one vow doesn't mean that they aren't worthy to have another go - Jesus would be appalled I suspect that people won't forgive as he was always teaching forgiveness.
  #1244  
Old 11-16-2008, 08:50 PM
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Yes, I agree. Given all the rupture that's happening in the Church of England right now over various issues, perhaps the Church will become disestablished. That might not necessarily be a bad thing for the Monarchy and/or the Church.

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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
All things being equal, they were both adulterers and should be judged by the same standard, in regards to the crown and trhe church. Fair is fair.
  #1245  
Old 11-18-2008, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wymanda View Post
Elspeth, I really don't think enough people in Britain care. There would surely be more of an uproar if money & parliamentary time was spent passing the relevant legislation to make 'Milla "Princess Consort" when there is so much more that needs legislative attention.
Yeah, that's the same reason, it seems, that the Settlement Act never gets looked at in Parliament, because they have so much more important things to work on, and so this archaic, pointless law just gets overlooked and left on the back burner. Sometimes something happens, like a royal marries a Catholic, and people are reminded, but then, oh yeah, we have things like wars and poverty to attend to, so we'll look at it later.... and later becomes years, and years turn to decades.
  #1246  
Old 11-18-2008, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
I'd prefer that Jesus not be brought into this conversation. But since you brought it up, He taught that people could be forgiven if they were sincerely sorry for what they'd done and had their lives changed (the technical term is "repentance"). He didn't teach that evil be ignored and not dealt with; and He taught very strict rules about adultery, divorce and remarriage.
I was curious what these strict rules were so checked the bible's position about adultery, divorce and remarriage. According to several scientifically serious sources, the bible in both parts (quotes by Moses and St.Paul/St. Matthew) accepts that adultery (or better: sexual misbehaviour in all forms) of one or both partners is the only reason where divorce is accceptable. About remarriage St. Paul says (in Corinthians) that remarriage should only occur when the divorcees have completely solved their inner connection to their former partner and then they should marry the person the adultery was committed with because it's better to be married to the person one has desired so much that one committed adultery (and thus broke the unity given by the Lord to the wedded couple) than stay alone. It's not something that is recommended or encouraged but it's possible.

I wasn't aware of that! But it's interesting, isn't it? So when Charles and Camilla in their service of dedication stated their repentance and their will to be a married couple as a unity from that moment onwards they obviously did all that the Christian teaching asked of them.
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  #1247  
Old 11-18-2008, 12:45 PM
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Camilla will be known as the Queen. Period.
Charles as King would not allow his wife, Camilla, to curtsey to any other King or Queen which she would have to do as a mere Duchess or Princess.
She will be Queen.
  #1248  
Old 11-18-2008, 01:43 PM
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I can't see the Archbishop of Canterbury refusing to annoint the next monarch ... there have been some truly reprehensible characters who were crowned without any protest from the clerics. I have to agree, this might open a whole new can of worms about the relationship between the Crown, the church and the people, that Dr. Williams might not wish to pursue.
  #1249  
Old 11-18-2008, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
(snip) About remarriage St. Paul says (in Corinthians) that remarriage should only occur when the divorcees have completely solved their inner connection to their former partner and then they should marry the person the adultery was committed with because it's better to be married to the person one has desired so much that one committed adultery (and thus broke the unity given by the Lord to the wedded couple) than stay alone. (snip)
Ooooh! How very interesting.
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  #1250  
Old 11-18-2008, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by pamk View Post
Camilla will be known as the Queen. Period.
Charles as King would not allow his wife, Camilla, to curtsey to any other King or Queen which she would have to do as a mere Duchess or Princess.
She will be Queen.
We don't know at this point whether Camilla will be Queen. It will depend greatly on public opinion when the time comes.

If the public remains opposed at the same level it is now, Parliament will pass legislation stating she will not hold the rank and title of Queen Consort. At that point, she will merely be a princess of the UK in her own right for her lifetime (albeit with precedence and place next to The King as first lady of the land).

That's the way it goes.
  #1251  
Old 11-18-2008, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by iowabelle View Post
I can't see the Archbishop of Canterbury refusing to annoint the next monarch ... there have been some truly reprehensible characters who were crowned without any protest from the clerics. I have to agree, this might open a whole new can of worms about the relationship between the Crown, the church and the people, that Dr. Williams might not wish to pursue.
Yes but back then :
1. The King held true power in the land
2. The subjects held true ignorance in the land
  #1252  
Old 11-18-2008, 08:33 PM
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Yes but back then the church held a lot more power too, so major decisions by the Archbishop of Canterbury would have carried a lot more weight. Nowadays if the Church tries to meddle in the succession, the Church will come off the loser.

Look, you might as well get used to it - if Charles is alive when the Queen dies, he'll become King, and if he's still alive when Coronation Day rolls around, he'll be crowned. Doesn't matter how hard you wish it was otherwise; it isn't going to happen otherwise. There's more at stake than people wanting to see Charles and Camilla humiliated on Diana's account.
  #1253  
Old 11-18-2008, 08:50 PM
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Could you please give me the reference to the Corinthian epistle that you mention, Jo? Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine View Post
About remarriage St. Paul says (in Corinthians) that remarriage should only occur when the divorcees have completely solved their inner connection to their former partner and then they should marry the person the adultery was committed with because it's better to be married to the person one has desired so much that one committed adultery (and thus broke the unity given by the Lord to the wedded couple) than stay alone. It's not something that is recommended or encouraged but it's possible.
  #1254  
Old 11-18-2008, 08:51 PM
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Yes, I think that it depends very much on public opinion...whether that's "fair" or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
We don't know at this point whether Camilla will be Queen. It will depend greatly on public opinion when the time comes.

If the public remains opposed at the same level it is now, Parliament will pass legislation stating she will not hold the rank and title of Queen Consort. At that point, she will merely be a princess of the UK in her own right for her lifetime (albeit with precedence and place next to The King as first lady of the land).

That's the way it goes.
  #1255  
Old 11-18-2008, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
We don't know at this point whether Camilla will be Queen. It will depend greatly on public opinion when the time comes.

If the public remains opposed at the same level it is now, Parliament will pass legislation stating she will not hold the rank and title of Queen Consort. At that point, she will merely be a princess of the UK in her own right for her lifetime (albeit with precedence and place next to The King as first lady of the land).

That's the way it goes.

Parliament will actually have to pass legislation that strips her of her title of Queen, which is more serious as it introduces the idea of a morganatic marriage and the idea that certain women aren't worthy of taking their husband's title. Parliament will try to avoid any such problem.
  #1256  
Old 11-19-2008, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Parliament will actually have to pass legislation that strips her of her title of Queen, which is more serious as it introduces the idea of a morganatic marriage and the idea that certain women aren't worthy of taking their husband's title. Parliament will try to avoid any such problem.
The morganatic precedent was established in 1937 when The Duke of Windsor married Wallis Simpson. She was denied via letters patent what was rightfully hers by common law as the wife of a son of the Sovereign.

It could happen again.
  #1257  
Old 11-19-2008, 02:45 AM
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Whether people want it or not, and I am fairly sure they will want it, the person who matters is Charles when he is King. He will make Camilla Queen and quite rightly so.
  #1258  
Old 11-19-2008, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Could you please give me the reference to the Corinthian epistle that you mention, Jo? Thanks.
It is quite complicated and I have it only in German, but I found a book about a scientific colloquium which has a paper that deals with the quotes from the Corinthians and the different interpretations theologists have given to them, so one can form their own opinion about what is actually said, how the Greek original text is to be translated and interpretated according to the time and situation it was written in:

The Corinthian Correspondence: [papers of the Forty-third Session of the Colloquium Biblicum Lovaniense (August 8-10, 1994)]
Von E. Peters, Reimund Bieringer
Mitwirkende Personen Reimund Bieringer
Verffentlicht von Peeters Publishers, 1996
ISBN 9068317741, 9789068317749
791 Seiten

In the book it's this paper:F. Neirynck (Leuven): The Sayings of Jesus in 1 Corinthians.

You can get a lot information if you google bible, divorce and remarriage but as this paper points out, most of what you find is interpretation, so one need to learn more about the background of St. Paul's letters and about the meaning of certain words of greek language of his time when it comes to social positions and thus the paper is surely very helpful.
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  #1259  
Old 11-19-2008, 03:51 PM
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Okay, thanks. I have a theological library at home here, but my job would be easier if I knew the actual texts that are quoted. I can use a concordance to find them, though. Thanks again.
  #1260  
Old 11-19-2008, 03:54 PM
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Ah, but the King of the UK can't override the wishes of the majority of the people. If people are really opposed to a Queen Camilla in 10 years time--which I doubt--Charles might find some the Prime Minister knocking on his door with urgent business.

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Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
Whether people want it or not, and I am fairly sure they will want it, the person who matters is Charles when he is King. He will make Camilla Queen and quite rightly so.
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