Prince Joachim and Princess Marie, Current Events Part 5: August 2013 -

[rob2008]

They will have a good time in France. They seem a contented family who represent contemporary family life well and in a happy way. There are good relations with Alexandra and all 4 children seem to integrate positively. J & M are good parents bringing them up well. Paris will add to the experiences and richness of family life.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Well, Joachim does show emotions. At least since our Marie entered his life (...)

I don't define opening up only to whine about how the public "has decided" that he's to be the family scapegoat as "reaching out" to the public. Den anden prins, the documentary, is a great example of this. Sure, he opens up in that – and I think that really suits him – but he then also goes on to imply that the public are the assholes because they don't bother to understand him and that's two steps forward and one step back. And it's definitely not gonna make the relationship between him and the public less tense. You can't ask the public to be more understanding if you don't give them the necessary information for them to understand you. I agree that it's a shame he didn't jump at the opportunity but that just brings me back to my point: He only has himself (and the court's poor communications department) to blame for the public's perception of him.

Since you seemingly refuse to read my past replies to you, his mistakes include: 1. Being about as snappy towards reporters as his dad's dachshunds. That's never gonna win him points with anyone. And down that same alley: 2. Refusing to answer questions if he's not styled correctly. That's just petty. Sure, he's right that technically people should address him with a formal you, but it's a bad look that barely goes when you're QMII and definitely doesn't go when your brother (who's higher up the line of succession) doesn't give a hoot about whether or not the plebs say "du" or "De" to him. I also think this is a large part of the reason people perceive him as being arrogant. 3. His minimal work effort. He routinely does the barest of minimum. 4. The Schackenborg mess. From the sale – sure, we all wanna make a good deal but in his position, it was perhaps not the wisest decision to make – to moaning about the press "lying" about his motives for moving to Copenhagen even though the press was only relaying what the court had written in the press release. 5. His history of moaning in general. It's never pretty when you can't admit your mistakes without a need to point fingers at others in the same go. Just take the loss, my dude. Additionally, with his history, the scapegoat narrative just doesn't hold. As I've said before, everyone makes mistakes, sure, but there will a limit as to how many times the public will forgive you. 6. His job with the military. A disaster. It's a part-time job frequently used to excuse the aforementioned poor work ethic but it's somehow impossible to get any sort of insight into how many hours he actually spends on it. And if he actually does spend a good portion of time in this position, surely it wouldn't be difficult for the court to lay these figures forward? 7. Failing to seek permission to take his apanage out of the country. Unconstitutional and as such, doesn't really need further explanation.

And those were just his biggest mistakes off the top of my head. Don't think I've been unreasonable. In return, I guess I could argue that you find mistakes other than the (downplayed) ones you mentioned in your previous post tenuous because you're dead set on defending him

I mean, yes, the DRF themselves would react that way but surely, that's why they have a communications department. To ensure situations that need damage control will be handled professionally. The DRF have one of the most incompetent communications departments. Instead of easing relations to the press and the public, they seem intent on making things harder than they are. And when you combine that kind of incompetence with someone a royal who also has a lot of shortcomings in their relations with the public, that's a disastrous pairing.

Marie is very likeable and very... umiddelbar (too knackered to think of an English equivalent). I was quite indifferent about her until I saw the moment in Kongehuset Indefra where she talked about how important it was for her to learn Danish to be able to speak with every Dane she met That's when she won my heart. And seeing her with Nikolai and Felix of course. As for detractors, I guess there'll always be a handful of morons but I'm not under the impression that it's super bad? Maybe I just move in the wrong (well in this case, the right ) circles.

About Frederik, true, but I also think that if Joachim had been the elder of the two, he would've been forced to change his ways. In this day and age, petulance is just not a viable quality in a future monarch (something I think certain other future monarchs will learn the hard way).

 

[Muhler]

Thank you, Archduchess Zelia.

It was most illuminating and I think you illustrated my points better than I could possibly do.

I also think we can safely agree on disagreeing.

Just one thing though.
As you recall Frederik had a job teaching at the Defense Academy (staff school) and we never learned how many hours he put in there.
And there was Mary's job at Microsoft when she first came to DK.
At least Joachim is seen out and about in uniform from time to time...

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Thank you, Archduchess Zelia.

It was most illuminating and I think you illustrated my points better than I could possibly do.

I also think we can safely agree on disagreeing.

Just one thing though.
As you recall Frederik had a job teaching at the Defense Academy (staff school) and we never learned how many hours he put in there.
And there was Mary's job at Microsoft when she first came to DK.
At least Joachim is seen out and about in uniform from time to time...

And I think I illustrated why your points are one-sided

Admittedly, I know little details about a position Frederik held in 2002. (After all, I was only 8 back then.) One could, however, argue that since he was a great deal younger then than Joachim was in 2015 and that he assumed the position in extension of his own education at Forsvarsakademiet, it's difficult to compare the two cases. But indeed, if the position was used as the go-to excuse for a poor work ethic from Frederik and the court refused the press insight into the amount of hours he put into it, I think it's as outrageous as Joachim's case.

As for Mary's job with Microsoft ? I mean, come on now, comparing a position she held prior to her officially becoming a member of the family to the mess that's been Joachim's position with the military? Are you saying there's no difference between what private citizens and members of a tax-payer funded institution should disclose to the public? I hope you stretched before that reach, Muhler

 

[Muhler]

Easy now, You are the one who consistently complain about Joachim having a Mickey Mouse job - little show, little work.
I'm merely pointing out that M&F can be (and were) accused of the same thing.

And calling his job a mess is, I think, a most dramatic description, that I dare say says more about your point of view than Joachim.

Our long discussion has left me with the clear impression that you have decided you don't like Joachim, ergo he can do no right. And you are deliberately looking for things to support that view.
In your posts you have rarely tried to look behind the picture, to look closer at the man, to use the questions: Why is it that Joachim? Could it be that? Instead you conclude that Joachim is lazy, is arrogant, is a mess and so - with just as little, if not less, factual basis than you accuse me of having.
That is - unfortunately - a very common view of Joachim.

And like I stated in my previous post, you have illustrated that point admirably.

Joachim is a human being with good sides as well as well as bad sides. But at least he is trying to work on it, but if he is not given a chance that is doomed to fail.
He is a real live human being with feelings. He may not like/be comfortable with showing his innermost feelings (even though in later years he has learned to open up), he may not be good at expressing his feelings and they may come out in an awkward way, whatever. But he has tried.
Try look at him as a human being, rather than a figure. (That comes across better in Danish: Prøv at se på ham som et menneske, snarere end en person.)

Like most human beings his life is one continuous development.
Joachim ten years ago was not the Joachim twenty years ago. Joachim ten years ago is not the same Joachim as today.
A little example: At the Classic Races Joachim have in recent years posed for private photos with members of the public. Joachim twenty years ago wouldn't have dreamed about that. He took his position way too serious to allow that. Today he has learned, no doubt inspired by M&F, that perhaps it doesn't hurt.

I know you will find this dreadfully patronizing, but here we go: I'm twice your age and if there is something those extra years have taught me, it's to put on the nuanced glasses and try look at people from different angles.
Sometimes I fail to do that, sometimes my prejudices are confirmed and sometimes I learn something about that person.

You may be right: Joachim is an arrogant, lazy enough-said. - I honestly don't believe that. But at least I can look at myself in the mirror and say I genuinely gave him the benefit of doubt.
Can you do the same? - Yes, that was rhetorical question better answered in front of your mirror.

Follow up.

Okay, let's look at the examples you came up with at the top of your head:

Since you seemingly refuse to read my past replies to you, his mistakes include: 1. Being about as snappy towards reporters as his dad's dachshunds. That's never gonna win him points with anyone. And down that same alley: 2. Refusing to answer questions if he's not styled correctly. That's just petty. Sure, he's right that technically people should address him with a formal you, but it's a bad look that barely goes when you're QMII and definitely doesn't go when your brother (who's higher up the line of succession) doesn't give a hoot about whether or not the plebs say "du" or "De" to him. I also think this is a large part of the reason people perceive him as being arrogant. 3. His minimal work effort. He routinely does the barest of minimum. 4. The Schackenborg mess. From the sale – sure, we all wanna make a good deal but in his position, it was perhaps not the wisest decision to make – to moaning about the press "lying" about his motives for moving to Copenhagen even though the press was only relaying what the court had written in the press release. 5. His history of moaning in general. It's never pretty when you can't admit your mistakes without a need to point fingers at others in the same go. Just take the loss, my dude. Additionally, with his history, the scapegoat narrative just doesn't hold. As I've said before, everyone makes mistakes, sure, but there will a limit as to how many times the public will forgive you. 6. His job with the military. A disaster. It's a part-time job frequently used to excuse the aforementioned poor work ethic but it's somehow impossible to get any sort of insight into how many hours he actually spends on it. And if he actually does spend a good portion of time in this position, surely it wouldn't be difficult for the court to lay these figures forward? 7. Failing to seek permission to take his apanage out of the country. Unconstitutional and as such, doesn't really need further explanation.

1 & 2) Being snappy towards reporters. - Well, some of them sure can be rude or provocative!
I can well imagine reporters deliberately addressing him with first name only and informal you, when he's on the job.
Frederik either don't care or simply ignore it.
But there is no excuse for the reporters! It ain't rocket science addressing people correctly. They are professionals not random members of the public who don't know better or get it wrong.
It's like in the military: You salute the rank, not the man. But some reporters have big problems with that.
- To that I will add: Big deal.

3) His current work load. He works only minimum, you say. - Okay, do you have any figures? I don't.
So your claim he is lazy is based on... very little.

4) The Schackenborg sale. It was the second huge defeat in his life. - Sure, in the glaring light of hindsight and comfortably sitting in our chairs we could all do a much better job in handling the PR.
To expect a man, even a royal, to be fully in control, even fully rational in that situation is to expect him to be superhuman.
Try understand the man and his situation before pointing your finger.

5) He moans you say, all the time seemingly. - Forgive me, but I don't recall Joachim moaning.
You first accuse him of not being open about his doings and happenings in his life, and when he is, he moans.

6) You call his military job a disaster. And you are qualified to say that because you graduated from the officer's academy in... when was it?
You served in the military, when? You have worked for the military? At least you served as a conscript, right?
Yet, despite his glaring shortcomings he is now to attend one of the most prestigious higher staff officer's academies in the world.
A disaster indeed!

7) His apanage.
The Constitution says: § 11. For medlemmer af det kongelige hus kan der bestemmes årpenge ved lov. Årpengene kan ikke uden folketingets samtykke nydes uden for riget.
§ 11. For members of the DRF an apanage can be granted by law. The apanage cannot, without the approval of Parliament, be granted (while residing) outside the realm.
- The key-words being: Without the approval of the Parliament.
Because the government and the Parliament were not aware that Joachim is going to France for a year? Are you trying to tell me that it has only now dawned on the 179 MP's that: Joachim is going to France?!? He didn't say! And
he is taking his apanage with him?!? And we can't do anything about it...
There are admittedly times when I question the abilities of our esteemed politicians, but in this case I think it's more likely they have allowed him to keep his apanage while he is in France at school. - What happens if his stay becomes more permanent is of course another matter.

- So to sum: If that's the best you can come up with, then I stand by the impression I have that this is more about a personal dislike of Joachim.

 

[Isabelle de France]

I read your comments with interest Muhler...
I think Frédéric's fans like the "fairy-tale people" facade of this charming prince who makes young girls dream... he is handsome, he found his sleeping beauty, he has an easy life whose made people dream about...
Joachim has from the start had the ungrateful role of the second who have to disappear in front of his brother, even if he is more serious and more responsible... so that the fairy tale continues, so that F and M fans keep dreaming, it is necessary that Frederick and his family are adorned with all the qualities and that Joachim and his family are the "villains" in this story...
I remember how Marie was welcomed in Denmark and the critics she was overwhelmed at the beginning...
I think unfortunately that Joachim will always be poorly considered whatever he does... and I'm sorry because I think he's a good person... and nobody (except you) wants to see him...
sorry my english is bad...

 

[Muhler]

Thank you. ?

Your English is fine
And your opinion is of course just as valid as anyone else's and just as welcome. Especially as I think mine and Archduchess Zelia's views are very clear by now.

Yes, our Marie got a good deal of criticism, certainly for the first few years. Perhaps not so much in the press as among royal watchers.

And so did Mary for the first couple of years. She had to live up to a formidable ex-sister-in-law, Alexandra.
And as you all know, there are still people out there who are determined to believe the worst about Mary.

 

[maria-olivia]

I love this thread because it is a real Discussion and not instagrams etc..

I am really looking forward Joachim starting his new Job in France with High level Militaires , who attend their high post because of their Bravure and not because their Mother is Queen of Denmark.

Will he be in Denmark with Unifirm and Medals for the Offficial Visit of the President Trump ?

 

[Isabelle de France]

Thank you. ?

And so did Mary for the first couple of years. She had to live up to a formidable ex-sister-in-law, Alexandra.
And as you all know, there are still people out there who are determined to believe the worst about Mary.

I only read rave reviews about Mary, Danish people seem to value her a lot...
as for Alexandra, if she was so much esteemed, the divorce with Joachim was probably very badly lived by Danish people and can parthy explain their resentment towards him...

 

[Muhler]

Will he be in Denmark with Unifirm and Medals for the Offficial Visit of the President Trump ?

Don't think so. That must be around the start of his course, so I don't think he would want to miss any classes at that time.
And I don't think our Marie will go to DK, for a gala evening either. Their children will need to settle in first, before Marie can be away. - They won't see much of their dad six days a week.

 

[Muhler]

I only read rave reviews about Mary, Danish people seem to value her a lot...
as for Alexandra, if she was so much esteemed, the divorce with Joachim was probably very badly lived by Danish people and can parthy explain their resentment towards him...

Mary is today indeed very respected and well liked - by most I'd say. Even those who are not that interested in royalty and the DRF, at least respect Mary.

Alexandra was still the superstar of the DRF when Frederik got engaged to Mary. She rarely, if ever, put a foot wrong.
At least not on the job. There were rumors that she was difficult to work for. - But that can perhaps be attributed to having a high work-standard herself and not being wholly used to the seemingly more laid back Danish work-culture. And if you have been given a dressing down by your boss, you may feel some resentment. Especially if your boss is right. ?
And yes, Joachim got all the blame for the divorce for the first few years.

But the public image of Alexandra has now changed somewhat, not least because a new superstar emerged in the DRF, Mary. And as a result of that, Frederik is now also a superstar.

 

[JR76]

Mary is today indeed very respected and well liked - by most I'd say. Even those who are not that interested in royalty and the DRF, at least respect Mary.

Alexandra was still the superstar of the DRF when Frederik got engaged to Mary. She rarely, if ever, put a foot wrong.
At least not on the job. There were rumors that she was difficult to work for. - But that can perhaps be attributed to having a high work-standard herself and not being wholly used to the seemingly more laid back Danish work-culture. And if you have been given a dressing down by your boss, you may feel some resentment. Especially if your boss is right. ?
And yes, Joachim got all the blame for the divorce for the first few years.

But the public image of Alexandra has now changed somewhat, not least because a new superstar emerged in the DRF, Mary. And as a result of that, Frederik is now also a superstar.

Without downplaying their own personal abilities it's clear that both Joachim and Frederik were made by their choice of partners.

 

[Muhler]

Without downplaying their own personal abilities it's clear that both Joachim and Frederik were made by their choice of partners.

I totally agree.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

I read your comments with interest Muhler...
I think Frédéric's fans like the "fairy-tale people" facade of this charming prince who makes young girls dream... he is handsome, he found his sleeping beauty, he has an easy life whose made people dream about...
Joachim has from the start had the ungrateful role of the second who have to disappear in front of his brother, even if he is more serious and more responsible... so that the fairy tale continues, so that F and M fans keep dreaming, it is necessary that Frederick and his family are adorned with all the qualities and that Joachim and his family are the "villains" in this story...
I remember how Marie was welcomed in Denmark and the critics she was overwhelmed at the beginning...
I think unfortunately that Joachim will always be poorly considered whatever he does... and I'm sorry because I think he's a good person... and nobody (except you) wants to see him...
sorry my english is bad...

I don't know if that's me you're referring to as "Frederik's fans" but I can assure you that Frederik – and especially Frederik's looks ? – plays no part in the way that I'm critical of Joachim.

Additionally, absolutely no one has deliberately set out to vilify Joachim. He's "poorly considered" based on his actions and the behaviour he displays. He may well be a good person – people who've actually spent time with him and gotten to know him definitely say as much – but when he fails to show that side to the public (and instead consistently entangles himself in unfortunate cases such as the circumstances re. the move to France), you can't blame them for thinking the way they do.

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Easy now, You are the one who consistently complain about Joachim having a Mickey Mouse job - little show, little work.
I'm merely pointing out that M&F can be (and were) accused of the same thing (...)

And I'm pretty sure I replied to just that?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since post #237 I've been under the impression that the subject of our discussion is the public's perception of Joachim. At least I've been analysing the factors that I believe are to blame for this perception. Now, am I a fan of Joachim? No. Do I dislike him as a person? Absolutely not – why would I? I don't know him. What I dislike is his behaviour and his actions which I also largely think taints the public image of him. But I definitely don't need you to explain to me what I feel about Joachim. Especially not when you insist on putting words in my mouth to fit me into your "everyone hates Joachim unreasonably " narrative – which in itself is a bit rich for someone accusing me of "looking for things to support my views"

You're asking me to excuse his actions based on what-if scenarios? I'm not gonna do that for any royal. I can sympathise just fine with a couple of missteps but when someone keeps making the same mistakes, I'm prone to believe that they're just unwilling to learn. As for my "conclusions", I'm not concluding anything because again, I don't know him. I am saying that this is how his actions are perceived by the public. I'm not speculating on the motives behind these actions because they're not just wildly hypothetical, they're also beyond the point in a context concerning the public's perception – if the public isn't informed of the motives behind his actions, they can't be expected to take it into consideration.

En gang til for Prins Knud:

#1 & #2: I didn't say the reporters were right. I said that since Joachim chose to react the way he did, that affects the public's perception of him. An intelligent man like Joachim knows that there's nothing positive to win from that kind of behaviour and as such I'm not gonna sit here and excuse it as though he's some nitwit who doesn't know any better. I'm not fond of his behaviour but I'd never question his intelligence.
#3: He had 58 working days in 2018. As for his job with the military, it's hard to get your hands on those figures when the court won't disclose them
#4: While we've established by now that you only see the problems you want to see, as I said in my original post, there's so much more to the sale of Schackenborg than the sale itself.
#5: Again, openness ≠ blaming others for your own mistakes. We would clog up a lot less space if you bothered reading my replies to you.
#6: Haha. Ah yes, when every other argument fails, please do resort to the "wHaT's YoUr QuALiFiCaTiOn tO sAy ThAT" rhetoric ? Again, I thought I made it clear that I didn't comment on his actual position but the way his position and the court's subsequent refusal to comment on the hours he puts into it was perceived in the public. As I've studied communications, I wouldn't call myself unqualified in that department but of course you're correct that it isn't my current major ?
#7: It's irrelevant whether or not they knew. They weren't asked which is what the constitution states. A formality, sure, but publicity-wise not a good look to deliberately fail to abide by the constitution.

Lastly, I don't think you're being patronising to me. Your entire post shows that you're patronising me. A couple of posts ago, you made sure to point out that we're not fighting. I disagree about that. I think once you can't make your point without resorting to patronising rhetoric, it stops being a "frank discussion". Accuse me of being unnuanced for refusing to agree that Joachim should be cut slack on the basis hypotheses and what-if scenarios, I think I'll survive I make my observations about Joachim's actions behaviour based on the information that's available to the general public and I have no qualms about looking myself in the eyes.

I think we should end it here, Muhler. The point is moot.

 

[Muhler]

Fine by me. If you wish, we can end our little duel here.

I will however point out that I did not state that you have a personal dislike towards Joachim. I was careful to point out that it was an ever clearer impression I had.
And of course I go for your statements and arguments.

Until our next frank discussion then.

 

[Muhler]

Perhaps this should go in the Schackenborg thread?

https://www.bt.dk/kendte/prins-joachim-i-uheldig-moegsag

Anyway, Schackenborg Slotskro (inn) near Schackenborg Manor, which is owned by Joachim and shipping magnate, Hans Michael Jebsen, (*) has lost its elite smiley after an unannounced visit by the authority that looks after the hygiene at restaurants and inns in DK.
The conditions were not up to standard and there was an immediate sanction, the loss of the elite smiley.

In DK all restaurants, inns and other places where prepared food is served are obliged by law to hang the report by the controlling agency at a place where prospective guests can see it before entering the place.
To make it simple the reports is marked by IIRC a happy smiley ?
A pleased smiley
And indifferent smiley
A less than happy smiley
And a sour smiley
If the place get topmarks all the way, the reports is marked with a big happy smiley, an elite smiley ?
(They don't actually look like the above, but I think you get my meaning.)

The inn is leased and of course the one leasing it is not particularly happy. Partly because it of course is bad for business to loose an elite smiley and partly because this usually means more unannounced visits.

Now, what has this got to do with Joachim? Not that much I guess, but as co-owner the buck ultimately ends at his desk.

And here in the middle of the Silly Season, this has of course ended up in all the papers, with Joachim in the headline.

- So should you ever visit DK and feel a little peckish, don't just look at the menu and the prices, take a look at the report with the similes as well. They should preferably all be smiling broadly.
And on that note, to the surprise of the tourist industry here in DK, it has been pouring in with Swiss, Austrian and Belgian (and Dutch, but they are more common) tourists this year. Fleeing from the heat further south from here.

(*) I don't think I'm too off the mark, when I estimate that he controls about 1% of the world merchant shipping. Yet he is almost unknown.

 

[Isabelle de France]

the kingdom's spiteful tongues will still put everything on Joachim shoulders...

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

the kingdom's spiteful tongues will still put everything on Joachim shoulders...

Not so much "the kingdom's spiteful tongues" as a rag that specialises in clickbait trying to get more views by dragging in a famous name. Akin to how another Danish rag wrote a headline about how Mary and Marie are "fighting" over the friendship of Caroline Fleming only to write in the actual article that she simply seems closer to Marie than to Mary now. Nothing about a fight. As Muhler said, it's the silly season. They have no news to report, so they make them up themselves.

 

[iceflower]

Prince Joachim and Princess Marie attended the award ceremony of the Stéphane Bern Foundation for History and Heritage at the Institut de France in Paris yesterday, January 15:



** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 ** Pic 3 **

 

[maria-olivia]

Princess Marie is wearing the Broch she wore as pin on her Hair at New year in Denmark.

 

[iceflower]

Prince Joachim and Princess Marie attended the Diner de la Mode (Fashion Dinner), a fundraiser dinner in profit of the French Anti-AIDS association Sidaction, in Paris this evening, January 23:



** Pic ** gettyimages gallery ** tt.se gallery **

 

[polyesco]

They have had a busy social week in Paris! Marie looks good

 

[Muhler]

Prince Joachim and Princess Marie attended the Diner de la Mode (Fashion Dinner), a fundraiser dinner in profit of the French Anti-AIDS association Sidaction, in Paris this evening, January 23:



** Pic ** gettyimages gallery ** tt.se gallery **

And here is the coverage by BB:
https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongeli...nskendt-designer-joachim-og-marie-festede-med

Our Marie wore a dress by Ole Yde.

 

[iceflower]

Prince Joachim and Princess Marie attended a D-Day ceremony at the Monument to the Fallen Danish Sailors in Sainte-Marie-du-Mont (Manche), France, and further ceremonies at Utah Beach and Omaha Beach this weekend:



** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 ** Pic 3 ** Pic 4 ** Pic 5 ** Pic 6 **

 

[Muhler]

An often overlooked group.

During WWII 2/3 of the total Danish merchant fleet was caught outside Danish waters and many if not most ended up sailing for the Allied.
Altogether some 240 ships with 6.500 sailors.

Altogether some 3.000 sailors died during WWI and WWII.

The total number who sailed for the Allied are uncertain, because some registered aboard ships belonging to other, sometimes neutral, countries.
Others found other employment somewhere.
A few returned home to DK.
Quite a few signed up for in particular British war-service. Either in the Royal Navy, the army or the British merchant fleet.
But the best official estimate is that some 1.900 Danish sailors died on the seas during WWII. - A very high casualty rate, because they sailed from April 1940 to the end. - Also during the dark months of 1941 and 42, what the Uboat-crews called the "happy time."
Some were involved in the invasion of Normandy, aboard the many thousand ships taking part in the operation.

Back in 1990 I worked with a retired (for health reasons) 2nd officer. He had begun sailing during the 1950's and at that time there were still a lot of seamen around who had sailed the convoys. He said many of them were psychologically damaged.
They habitually looked for trails of torpedoes or periscopes when on deck. And most avoided sleeping with the door closed if at all possible. (When a torpedo hits the hull is twisted to some extent, meaning that doors become jammed. So many drowned in their cabins, unable to get out.)

 

[Silverpot]

An often overlooked group.

During WWII 2/3 of the total Danish merchant fleet was caught outside Danish waters and many if not most ended up sailing for the Allied.
Altogether some 240 ships with 6.500 sailors.

Altogether some 3.000 sailors died during WWI and WWII.

The total number who sailed for the Allied are uncertain, because some registered aboard ships belonging to other, sometimes neutral, countries.
Others found other employment somewhere.
A few returned home to DK.
Quite a few signed up for in particular British war-service. Either in the Royal Navy, the army or the British merchant fleet.
But the best official estimate is that some 1.900 Danish sailors died on the seas during WWII. - A very high casualty rate, because they sailed from April 1940 to the end. - Also during the dark months of 1941 and 42, what the Uboat-crews called the "happy time."
Some were involved in the invasion of Normandy, aboard the many thousand ships taking part in the operation.

Back in 1990 I worked with a retired (for health reasons) 2nd officer. He had begun sailing during the 1950's and at that time there were still a lot of seamen around who had sailed the convoys. He said many of them were psychologically damaged.
They habitually looked for trails of torpedoes or periscopes when on deck. And most avoided sleeping with the door closed if at all possible. (When a torpedo hits the hull is twisted to some extent, meaning that doors become jammed. So many drowned in their cabins, unable to get out.)

The Swedish merchant fleet also changed to the Allied flags for those ships that were out to sea when the war broke. I knew several sailors (family and class mates fathers) that wasn't able to go home during that time or got imprisoned in China and Japan. No one was torpedoed though.

Not many people know about this.

 

[iceflower]

Prince Joachim and Princess Marie attended the delivery of the 2020 History and Heritage Prizes of the Stephane Bern Foundation at the Institut France in Paris yesterday, June 7:



** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 **

 

[Muhler]

I had to look up who Stephane Bern Is.

He is a prominent French TV-presenter and TV-personality.
He was for eighteen years members of an association aimed at restoring the monarchy in France.
He specialize in covering royalty in the news.

He has received an impressive ranger of French and international orders - I don't know for what though.

- As far as I can tell he is the gentleman standing behind our Marie to her right shoulder.

 

[iceflower]

Princess Marie accompanied by Prince Joachim opened the Christmas bazaar at Frederikskirken - The Danish Church in Paris today, November 26:



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