New Titles for Queen Margrethe's Descendants: 2008 & 2022, 2024

[CrownPrincessJava]

Here's the translation via Google

PARIS (Ekstra Bladet): - We are all very sad. It's never fun to see your children being mistreated like that. They themselves find themselves in a situation they do not understand.

This is what a clearly affected Prince Joachim tells Ekstra Bladet, who met him outside the Danish embassy in Paris on Thursday morning.

(..)
- I was given five days' notice, says the prince to Ekstra Bladet.

- I heard that you were told this back in May. That is not correct?

- In May, I was presented with a plan, which basically stated that when the children each turned 25, it would happen. Athena turns 11 in January, says a clearly touched Prince Joachim.

The relationship with his mother
Outside the Danish embassy in Paris, Ekstra Bladet also had the opportunity to ask Prince Joachim how the decision has affected the relationship with his mother, Queen Margrethe.

- I don't think I need to elaborate here, says Prince Joachim to Ekstra Bladet.

(..)

 

[Catharina]

You can often have the webpage translated in your browser. At least mine has that option on the top of the page near the url bar.

- It's never fun to see your children being mistreated like that, Prince Joachim tells Ekstra Bladet, to which he also says that he was only given five days' notice.

...

- We are all very sad. It's never fun to see your children being mistreated like that. They themselves find themselves in a situation they do not understand.

...

- I was given five days' notice, says the prince to Ekstra Bladet.

- I heard that you were told this back in May. That is not correct?

- In May, I was presented with a plan, which basically stated that when the children each turned 25, it would happen. Athena turns 11 in January, says a clearly touched Prince Joachim.

...

Outside the Danish embassy in Paris, Ekstra Bladet also had the opportunity to ask Prince Joachim how the decision has affected the relationship with his mother, Queen Margrethe.

- I don't think I need to elaborate here, says Prince Joachim to Ekstra Bladet.

 

[Lilyflo]

Has there been a poll yet to sample the views of the Danish people?

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Perhaps you could say what he saying for the non-danish speakers.

Prince Joachim says today that he was made aware in May that his childrens titles would be taken away from them when each of them reached the age of 25…. Athena turns 11 in january…

He also says that he was given information 5 days ago that the decision had already been taken and was given 5 days to inform his children…. He requested extra time to talk this through with his family and then come with a response, and says that was approved (but apprently not)

He says that he is very sad and upset and that the children is very sad and upset and don’t really know what they should belive and ”wich leg they should be standing on”…. He says that the children was not involved in this decision and that it is painful for him to see them so sad and upset…. He says that it makes his children harm and that he don’t understand why the should be so punished

He is asked by the journalist wether this impacts his relation to his mother Queen Margrethe to wich he replies ”i don’t think i need to explain that here”

https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdni...-joachim-mine-boern-er-gjort-fortraed/9447865

 

[Viv]

Maybe that's exactly why Countess Alexandra said the children feel ostracized. Maybe the kids thought of "of Denmark" as kind of their family name and now feel like they have been kicked out of the family (while more distant family members get to stay in).

No, that has nothing to do with it, I’m afraid! In the English language you are
a prince or princess OF a country or territory. The Danish Royal House
operates with two prepositions: Til = to and AF = of. It’s a titular technicality made to distinguish between those in the line of succession and those who are not.

Thus, all princes and princesses being in the line of succession AND members
of the RDF are princes and princesses “ TIL Danmark”. Of course
that includes the children of Prince Joachim - until January 1st 2023.
The late Prince Henrik however, was a “ prins AF Danmark”, because
he wasn’t in the line of succession, but still a member of the RF!
Yes, I agree that it’s a bit confusing…..?

 

[Blog Real]

Joachim to Ekstrabladet, interesting:
https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdni...-joachim-mine-boern-er-gjort-fortraed/9447865

Prince Joachim appears to be very saddened by the Queen's decision

 

[muriel]

Here are my two cents:

> I think it is the right decision on the part of HM.

> There is clearly an issue with communications within the family. A decision of this nature should have been agreed within the family so there are no surprises. That the process has not been smooth only suggests that there are bigger issues at play within the family dynamic. I suspect J&M's move to Paris may have been part of a larger story to move Joachim's family away from the monarchy.

> I think both Joachim and Alexandra were wrong to publicly air their grievances. They are really burning bridges they do not need to.

 

[Mbruno]

Prince Joachim says today that he was made aware in May that his childrens titles would be taken away from them when each of them reached the age of 25…. Athena turns 11 in january…

He also says that he was given information 5 days ago that the decision had already been taken and was given 5 days to inform his children…. He requested extra time to talk this through with his family and then come with a response, and says that was approved (but apprently not)

He says that he is very sad and upset and that the children is very sad and upset and don’t really know what they should belive and ”wich leg they should be standing on”…. He says that the children was not involved in this decision and that it is painful for him to see them so sad and upset…. He says that it makes his children harm and that he don’t understand why the should be so punished

He is asked by the journalist wether this impacts his relation to his mother Queen Margrethe to wich he replies ”i don’t think i need to explain that here”

https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdni...-joachim-mine-boern-er-gjort-fortraed/9447865

It is not surprising that the children were not involved in the discussions, but their parents should have been. It is also understandable that the children are feeling sad.

Nevertheless, I don't see how waiting until they are 25 to strip them of their titles would have benefited the children. On the contrary, for Henrik and Athena in particular, it is probably better to lose the title now while they are still too young to understand whether a title matters or not than wait until they are adults.

Despite opinions to the contrary, I cannot help thinking that the way Alexandra has been managing his sons' careers may have contributed to a change in the original plans.

I will not speculate whether this decision on titles, combined with what I personally considered an odd speech by Frederilk at the Jubilee gala, is signaling a slow transition of power or not.

 

[Marchesina]

I don't see what difference does it make for children to lose their titles now than at 25. It was bound to happen anyway...unless those title are granting them privileges at school or work (which I really hope it is not the case).
However I agree that the speed and the lack of involvement of Joachim in the process is suspicious to say the least, and IMO it reflect badly on the royal household, whoever made the final decision to come out with the statement now instead of let's say December or right before the ruling will become effective.

 

[maria-olivia]

Thus, all princes and princesses being in the line of succession AND members
of the RDF are princes and princesses “ TIL Danmark”. Of course
that includes the children of Prince Joachim - until January 1st 2023.
The late Prince Henrik however, was a “ prins AF Danmark”, because
he wasn’t in the line of succession, but still a member of the RF!
Yes, I agree that it’s a bit confusing…..?

The best Post , thank you

 

[Minister of Court]

A grown man crying about his children becoming counts instead of princes! Joachim clearly doesn’t realize how ridiculous that sounds to the people at large.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

Here are my two cents:

> I think it is the right decision on the part of HM.

> There is clearly an issue with communications within the family. A decision of this nature should have been agreed within the family so there are no surprises. That the process has not been smooth only suggests that there are bigger issues at play within the family dynamic. I suspect J&M's move to Paris may have been part of a larger story to move Joachim's family away from the monarchy.

> I think both Joachim and Alexandra were wrong to publicly air their grievances. They are really burning bridges they do not need to.

Joachim is his fathers son out in every inch… Nothing is ”too private” for him to not tell a journalist when things don’t go his way

There is obviously a conflict of some some sort going on between this family and the royal court… Otherwise they wouldn’t have this lack of communication between each other

 

[Tatiana Maria]

So under the first plan, the first title removal would have occurred in August 2024. If, for whatever reason, the Queen only recently formed the opinion that she may no longer be Queen by then (she would be 84 years old), that might account for the acceleration of the changes since, as many have discussed, it probably would have caused an even deeper family rift for King Frederik to be the one stripping titles from his brother's children against their wishes, though announcing it during the Queen's reign would hopefully take some of the blame off him.

But it is difficult to think of a reasonable justification for informing Prince Joachim the announcement would be postponed, and then making it immediately anyway.

It is not surprising that the children were not involved in the discussions, but their parents should have been. It is also understandable that the children are feeling sad.

I would say the grown children, Nikolai and Felix, were entitled to be consulted, as they are independent adults and the change will have a direct and immediate effect on their lives and careers.

It is more nebulous in the case of Henrik and Athena. They are more than old enough to understand the issue, but they are also at an age when it is expected for the major decisions about their lives to be made on their behalf by their parents and other adult authority figures.

You can often have the webpage translated in your browser. At least mine has that option on the top of the page near the url bar.

Yes, but posting a summary or translated excerpt along with the link makes it much easier to search for for future readers, is simpler for those not using an automatic translation feature in their browsers, and is technically part of the forum rules.

No, that has nothing to do with it, I’m afraid! In the English language you are
a prince or princess OF a country or territory. The Danish Royal House
operates with two prepositions: Til = to and AF = of. It’s a titular technicality made to distinguish between those in the line of succession and those who are not.

Thus, all princes and princesses being in the line of succession AND members
of the RDF are princes and princesses “ TIL Danmark”. Of course
that includes the children of Prince Joachim - until January 1st 2023.
The late Prince Henrik however, was a “ prins AF Danmark”, because
he wasn’t in the line of succession, but still a member of the RF!
Yes, I agree that it’s a bit confusing…..?

You're right, and the explanation is appreciated. However, it isn't inappropriate to translate both designations as "of Denmark" - that is the method used by the official website. I personally prefer to maintain the distinction in English and translate "til Danmark" as "to Denmark".

And I believe Michiru-Kaiou's point was that this title has served as the princes' and princess's name/identity. It is not comparable to hypothetically stripping it from the Greeks, who never use it.

 

[muriel]

Joachim is his fathers son out in every inch… Nothing is ”too private” for him to not tell a journalist when things don’t go his way

I fear you may be right!

There is obviously a conflict of some some sort going on between this family and the royal court… Otherwise they wouldn’t have this lack of communication between each other

Its not just the lack of communication, but also the outright angst and dare I say it, hostility, that is apparent in the totally unnecessary communication by Joachim.

 

[Viv]

Thank you Viv for that! Very informative and now I can see that the Danish people do not see the Greek Royal family as being part of Danish royalty, but rather having "Of Greece and Denmark" as simply a courtesy. I suppose if the Danish people do not have any issue with that, this Aussie won't either

Well, you could call the “ - of Denmark” bit of the Royal Greek style a courtesy
or a “practicality” or a “ life line”, if you like!

It makes sense once you know the story about a young Danish Prince
being offered the (unstable) Greek throne by the Great Powers in 1863
and his father ( Christian IX), who was no doubt flattered by the offer,
but also very worried about the prospects for his son!

Danes interested in royal history know about the royal Greek-Danish
connection, those who are not, couldn’t care less!

 

[tihkon2]

A grown man crying about his children becoming counts instead of princes! Joachim clearly doesn’t realize how ridiculous that sounds to the people at large.

Eh, Sounds like his mother could learn a thing or 2 about tact and diplomacy and compassion. Whatever the driving force behind this, her grandchildren were just treated like crap. In public.

 

[Alison H]

It seems a strange decision to take when the elder two are already in their 20s.

I don't speak Danish, but British press outlets are reporting that Joachim, Marie and Alexandra are all "shocked and confused", so it doesn't sound as if they were involved in the decision at all.

On MSN GB - "According to the publication, Countess Alexandra said via her press adviser: "We are all confused by the decision. We are saddened and in shock. This comes like a bolt from the blue.

"The children feel ostracised. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them."

 

[suztav]

A grown man crying about his children becoming counts instead of princes! Joachim clearly doesn’t realize how ridiculous that sounds to the people at large.

Exactly! Sounds like Joachim is suffering from S3 --- second-son-syndrome!

 

[Somebody]

I am trying to think of ways in which Joachim (and Alexandra) could have communicated. They clearly don't agree with the decision, so stating they do would be lying. Maybe something along the lines of:

"It will be quite a change for the children as being princes of Denmark has been an important part of their identities. However, going forward they will remain proud to be Danish and concious of their responsibilities as members of the royal family while using the title of greve/komtesse of Monpezat, a title linked to their beloved farfar (grandfather)."

It seems a strange decision to take when the elder two are already in their 20s.

I don't speak Danish, but British press outlets are reporting that Joachim, Marie and Alexandra are all "shocked and confused", so it doesn't sound as if they were involved in the decision at all.

On MSN GB - "According to the publication, Countess Alexandra said via her press adviser: "We are all confused by the decision. We are saddened and in shock. This comes like a bolt from the blue.

"The children feel ostracised. They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them."

You might want to start reading here: https://www.theroyalforums.com/foru...ants-2008-and-2022-a-16845-7.html#post2495673. As Alexandra' s statement was one of the first to be discussed as it came minutes after the official announcement.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Eh, Sounds like his mother could learn a thing or 2 about tact and diplomacy and compassion. Whatever the driving force behind this, her grandchildren were just treated like crap. In public.

It doesn’t mean the children are less loved in any way.

 

[yukari]

In the plan stated by Joachim where each would lose their title at 25, let's say Nikolai marry at 23, would his wife a Princess for 2 years until he's 25? Honestly, losing title gradually one by one seems weird particularly if by the time Athena 25, the Queen might already pass. It's her decision so it's fitting if it takes effect during her reign.

I agree with some posters that the death of Queen Elizabeth might be one of the triggers. Anything can happen anytime without warning so better strike it in one go now while she's still able. She's doing what QEII did with Camilla's Queen Consort title. But I also agree that it could/should be communicated better to the affected parties so there's less drama.

As for Joachim comment, it could be that he has no problem on the title lost but more about feeling blindsided by the (sudden?) announcement. Or it could also be because he's still lobbying the decision (I wonder whether the "losing title at 25" was his proposal or it came from the royal household? I feel like it came from him).

I see some video where the Queen has been asked about this issue during an engagement and she seemed a bit startled.

 

[tihkon2]

It doesn’t mean the children are less loved in any way.

Sounds like the children don't see it quite the way you do.
My issue isn't with the titles being taken way. It's the WAY they were. The way it was done yesterday sucks. Badly.

 

[Kataryn]

I wonder if the family discord is why the announcement expressly stated

"The Queen’s decision is in line with similar adjustments that other royal houses have made in various ways in recent years."​

I don't think this is a good decision in the long term. IMHO the government of a country tends to want what was has been the king's privilege in the on-going move of the political power from the souvereign to the people the country's citizens have voted in.


Stripping titles off Royal offspring and allowing them to lead "normal careers" sounds good as an idea. But when the monarch does that to certain members of the family, who's to say that it should be stopped there? Why only Joachim's children? Because they are "just" the children of the "spare"? Then why keep the titles for the CP's children? These three yonger children will end up "unneeded" as well. Do they have to look forward to loose their titles (and thus part of the identity they grew up with) as well? And why not take the firstborn child of a direct-line heir out of the (now considered throughly unroyal) family and let the (untitled) wife of a direct heir raise the other kids while the heir's heir's heir is raised apart as a future monarch? There is only a tiny step from there to abolish the monarchy because who needs Royals that can be stripped off their tiltes at the monarch's whim in a political system that's based on the people's basic rights and laws protecting that?

I'm not even sure the queen can do so under European law....

If I was Joachim or one of his wifes, I would be fuming having an aunt like Benedikte, still running around as a princess of Denmark doing some public duties even though she is "only" a widowed German "princess" (name, not title) after all or another aunt who is treated as Her Majesty though she lived in exile for decades now while my children, a queen's grandchildren, were stripped of their titles being teenagers or young adults only and used to be who they are, since birth. I already can imagine what this will mean for the former princess-daughter of Joachim in her (probably posh) school in Paris! Poor girl. As she is not even a grevine in her own right but then just a Komtesse...



And the next step will be that the government decides on who's important in the family and who is not. And then... why is the monarch important?

That, IMHO is the fastest way to a democracy with no king or queen, but a voted in president (m/f). When even a monarch has no more respect for the Blood Royal of their family, who should have it? Why bow, courtsey or just show any form of reference to the head of a family that is not considerd "worthy" of the titles they were born with anymore? Even though they've done nothing? Where will end where this has been started? It's very good that there has never been a a need for gender discussions in Denmark after Margrethe's ascent to the throne and there wasn't any reason to talk race about the first sons of Prince Joachim yet. But when these things happen IMHO it's the first step towards abolishing the monarchy. Or the second step if you think about the Counts of Rosenberg and their father, the Arveprince.


It was okay with the Norwegian Royals, seeing as there was Marius already as a not-Royal family member before a Royal child was born, the the heir, Ingrid Alexandra and then Sverre, the spare. Who is a HH Prince of Norway still, isn't he, though he is only the grandson of the king?

And I can understand the wish of minor Royals not to be known as a part of the Royal House when they try to lead normal lifes (as if "normal lifes" are something you have to have when you were born into the upper echelons of society - it's more about what you can do in your life without the media coming after you...). But such a young girl and young boy as Joachim's younger children? Living in Paris, the capital of humility? The place where poor and rich are equal??? LOL! I bet when the former princess is having her first boyfriend this is exactly how she is presented in Ekstra or Billed Bladet: as "former princess of Denmark, now Komtesse...).
(And, coming back to the original topic: why are these kids of Joachim anything but normal Danish citizens? Why be a "Count" if a normal life is envisioned for them? Shouldn't they be just really normal citizens, maybe taking on normal names like Nicolai Joachimsson? Athena Mariedottir or even Cavallier?


If the family members of the monarch are citizens like you and me, that's fine. But why have a monarch after all? What makes this person so "good" that we accept them as heirs and later as the chef when they have only what they deny their family - the Blood Royal??

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I'm surprised at it, thought I think it is a good way forward for all RFs. I am surprised they didn't do like Sweden and allow them to use the title but not pass them on via marriage, to children etc.
Shocked at Alexandra's reaction. She may not be a member of the RF but I think it would only be fair, and tbh good manners to tell her before hand. Being able to have the whole family speak in favour of it as the Swedish RF did would cut any speculation of drama and upset. While Alexandra should perhaps have stayed quiet, its poor PR from the Danish Royal Court not to get her on side.

I do feel a bit for the children, when you look at all those big family get togethers the rest of the family all tend to have titles - Anne-Marie's children and grandchildren have titles and aren't even from a real reigning RF anymore and Benedikte's children have titles from a defunct German RF. Yet here are the grandchildren of the last current Queen Regnant in Europe having theirs taken away.

The territorial designation and titles/ last names of the Queen’s sisters don’t compare in this at all. It isn’t going make them look important than the Greeks and the Sayn-Wittgenstein’s

 

[Sidacarri]

I do think this was all necessary and probably should have happened long ago.

Prince Joachim needs to be an adult, he has known about this scince May and should have discussed this with his children. I title is just that, it doesn't make you a better person or more happy. You need to carve your own life and his children will be great people without being a prince or princess. That is what he should have told them. The comments he and his ex wife have made just make him sound petty and immature.

 

[ACO]

https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdni...-joachim-mine-boern-er-gjort-fortraed/9447865

"When asked how she felt knowing her grandchildren felt ostracized, Queen Margrethe struggled to find words to convey the current family dynamic finally saying, “Well, we'll have to see how…you can…But I haven't seen it myself” before rushing inside."


This whole thing is just so unnecessarily messy. The Swedish family gave them the blueprint. It was so easy and now they in this pickle.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I don't think this is a good decision in the long term. IMHO the government of a country tends to want what was has been the king's privilege in the on-going move of the political power from the souvereign to the people the country's citizens have voted in.


Stripping titles off Royal offspring and allowing them to lead "normal careers" sounds good as an idea. But when the monarch does that to certain members of the family, who's to say that it should be stopped there? Why only Joachim's children? Because they are "just" the children of the "spare"? Then why keep the titles for the CP's children? These three yonger children will end up "unneeded" as well. Do they have to look forward to loose their titles (and thus part of the identity they grew up with) as well? And why not take the firstborn child of a direct-line heir out of the (now considered throughly unroyal) family and let the (untitled) wife of a direct heir raise the other kids while the heir's heir's heir is raised apart as a future monarch? There is only a tiny step from there to abolish the monarchy because who needs Royals that can be stripped off their tiltes at the monarch's whim in a political system that's based on the people's basic rights and laws protecting that?

I'm not even sure the queen can do so under European law....

If I was Joachim or one of his wifes, I would be fuming having an aunt like Benedikte, still running around as a princess of Denmark doing some public duties even though she is "only" a widowed German "princess" (name, not title) after all or another aunt who is treated as Her Majesty though she lived in exile for decades now while my children, a queen's grandchildren, were stripped of their titles being teenagers or young adults only and used to be who they are, since birth. I already can imagine what this will mean for the former princess-daughter of Joachim in her (probably posh) school in Paris! Poor girl. As she is not even a grevine in her own right but then just a Komtesse...



And the next step will be that the government decides on who's important in the family and who is not. And then... why is the monarch important?

That, IMHO is the fastest way to a democracy with no king or queen, but a voted in president (m/f). When even a monarch has no more respect for the Blood Royal of their family, who should have it? Why bow, courtsey or just show any form of reference to the head of a family that is not considerd "worthy" of the titles they were born with anymore? Even though they've done nothing? Where will end where this has been started? It's very good that there has never been a a need for gender discussions in Denmark after Margrethe's ascent to the throne and there wasn't any reason to talk race about the first sons of Prince Joachim yet. But when these things happen IMHO it's the first step towards abolishing the monarchy. Or the second step if you think about the Counts of Rosenberg and their father, the Arveprince.


It was okay with the Norwegian Royals, seeing as there was Marius already as a not-Royal family member before a Royal child was born, the the heir, Ingrid Alexandra and then Sverre, the spare. Who is a HH Prince of Norway still, isn't he, though he is only the grandson of the king?

And I can understand the wish of minor Royals not to be known as a part of the Royal House when they try to lead normal lifes (as if "normal lifes" are something you have to have when you were born into the upper echelons of society - it's more about what you can do in your life without the media coming after you...). But such a young girl and young boy as Joachim's younger children? Living in Paris, the capital of humility? The place where poor and rich are equal??? LOL! I bet when the former princess is having her first boyfriend this is exactly how she is presented in Ekstra or Billed Bladet: as "former princess of Denmark, now Komtesse...).
(And, coming back to the original topic: why are these kids of Joachim anything but normal Danish citizens? Why be a "Count" if a normal life is envisioned for them? Shouldn't they be just really normal citizens, maybe taking on normal names like Nicolai Joachimsson? Athena Mariedottir or even Cavallier?


If the family members of the monarch are citizens like you and me, that's fine. But why have a monarch after all? What makes this person so "good" that we accept them as heirs and later as the chef when they have only what they deny their family - the Blood Royal??

I don’t think Princess Benedikte is comparable in the situation because she never passed on titles to her children.

 

[JR76]

Joachim elaborates about how he understood the plans for the issue in this article by BT:
"On May 5, I was presented with a plan. That this whole thought about my children's identity should be taken from them when each of them turned 25. Athena turns 11 in January. And then I was given five days' notice as the decision was accelerated," says the prince.

"The Queen said yesterday that she thinks this will be the best for her grandchildren. What do you think about this?"
"I can say that my children are upset. My kids don't know which leg to stand on. What should they think about this? Why should their identity be removed? Why do they have to be punished in this way?' says the prince.

"Can you try to explain why this is so important to you?"
"I don't want to engage in speculation and mudslinging. I am telling the truth as it is. I was given five days notice. And the original plan that was presented to me was for this to happen on their 25th birthdays. And I asked to be allowed (to have a think and) come back with my proposal (on how to handle the issue) . And then suddenly it was to happen this New year."

https://www.bt.dk/royale/prins-joachim-til-bt-hvorfor-skal-de-straffes-paa-den-maade

Not long ago the Court commented on the reactions to the Queen's decision to BT:

"As the Queen announced yesterday, the decision has been a long time coming. We understand that there are many emotions at stake at the moment, but we hope that the Queen's wish to future-proof the royal house will be respected,' says the royal house's communications manager Lene Balleby to B.T.

https://www.bt.dk/royale/efter-prins-joachims-udtalelser-nu-reagerer-kongehuset

 

[Prinsara]

I think Joachim and Alexandra sound like hurt people who were not given their courtesy of being involved in a decision that negatively affects their children unnecessarily and in the harshest and clumsiest manner possible.

I respected Queen Margrethe a lot more before yesterday, and I think she just shot herself in the foot. What the damage will be outside her own family, I don't know.

 

[tihkon2]

https://ekstrabladet.dk/underholdni...-joachim-mine-boern-er-gjort-fortraed/9447865

Joachim does not look happy in this video from a couple hours ago. The look he gives the reporter at the end, after she asks how he feels about his relationship with his mother right now......