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  #121  
Old 09-17-2021, 05:04 PM
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I wonder if in the future Prince Nikolai's wife and Prince Felix's wife will have the title of Princess?
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  #122  
Old 09-17-2021, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
I wonder if in the future Prince Nikolai's wife and Prince Felix's wife will have the title of Princess?
Technically they are entitled to get the title of princess, and so are any children.
However that is up to the monarch.
So it is very likely that Nikolai and Felix - and Henrik, will take the title of say Count de Montepezat and drop their princely title upon marriage. So we avoid ending up having flocks of royals roaming streets.
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  #123  
Old 09-17-2021, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
I wonder if in the future Prince Nikolai's wife and Prince Felix's wife will have the title of Princess?
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Technically they are entitled to get the title of princess, and so are any children.
However that is up to the monarch.
So it is very likely that Nikolai and Felix - and Henrik, will take the title of say Count de Montepezat and drop their princely title upon marriage. So we avoid ending up having flocks of royals roaming streets.
It is established convention that the wife and unmarried children of a prince with a place in the order of succession have the title princess or prince, but to the best of my knowledge it is not formalized in statute law.

I am not sure if Denmark has developed common law in regards to royal titles, as in the UK. It seems not to be the case, as it apparently took the Queen some time to decide that Marie Cavallier would take the title of princess upon marriage. Quoting from a summary of Prince Joachim and Marie Cavallier's press conference held in 2007:
Queen Margrethe has only recently decided Marie will have the title of princess. Joachim said this was not his decision to make, but another's (meaning the Queen).
https://danishroyalwatchers.blogspot...onference.html
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  #124  
Old 09-17-2021, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It is established convention that the wife and unmarried children of a prince with a place in the order of succession have the title princess or prince, but to the best of my knowledge it is not formalized in statute law.

I am not sure if Denmark has developed common law in regards to royal titles, as in the UK. It seems not to be the case, as it apparently took the Queen some time to decide that Marie Cavallier would take the title of princess upon marriage. Quoting from a summary of Prince Joachim and Marie Cavallier's press conference held in 2007:
Queen Margrethe has only recently decided Marie will have the title of princess. Joachim said this was not his decision to make, but another's (meaning the Queen).
https://danishroyalwatchers.blogspot...onference.html
Yes, the only title the monarch has no control over, is the title of Crown Prince/ss, because the person holding that title has a specific status mention in the Law of Succession and in the Constitution.

In theory QMII could have decided not grant Mary the title of Crown Princess, but that would be most sensational!
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  #125  
Old 09-17-2021, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Yes, the only title the monarch has no control over, is the title of Crown Prince/ss, because the person holding that title has a specific status mention in the Law of Succession and in the Constitution.
The title of Crown Prince/ss is not mentioned in the Law of Succession or in the Constitution, but the term tronfølgeren (heir to the throne) is mentioned in Art. 7 of the Constitution.

https://www.ft.dk/da/dokumenter/best...riges-grundlov
https://www.retsinformation.dk/eli/lta/1953/169
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  #126  
Old 09-17-2021, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The title of Crown Prince/ss is not mentioned in the Law of Succession or in the Constitution, but the term tronfølgeren (heir to the throne) is mentioned in Art. 7 of the Constitution.

https://www.ft.dk/da/dokumenter/best...riges-grundlov
https://www.retsinformation.dk/eli/lta/1953/169
Correct and that's the word I should have used.

There are a number of very specific titles for the Tronfølger:
Kronprinsen (The Crown Prince because there can only be one. And now also Kronprinsessen) who is (now) the oldest child of the monarch regardless of gender.
Arveprinsen, who is a relative who is the nearest in line for the throne after the monarch.
Tronarvingen, who is the heir to the throne. Which pedantically speaking is not exactly the same as Tronfølgeren, which simply means the next to sit on the throne. A Tronfølger can in contrast to an (bloodline) heir be appointed by the Parliament, if there are no one else left in the Line of Succession. - They covered everything when they wrote down these paragraphs!
But of course that's for nerds.
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  #127  
Old 02-13-2022, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Would it not be possible for Countess Athena of Monpezat not to take her husbands name and simply keep her maiden name.
The tricky issue is that if she were to lose her royal status at (or after) marriage to the hypothetical Mr. Schmidt-Jensen, she would have no maiden name to keep, as I see it.

My understanding is that in the nobility, the unmarried daughter of (for example) a Count of Rosenborg carries the title Countess (Komtesse) and the surname "of Rosenborg". According to the rules of the house of nobility (are the rules set in custom or law?), a woman automatically receives her husband's rank and title. Once married to a plain Mr., she is a plain Mrs. But according to the civil laws, she is entitled to retain her surname, of Rosenborg.

However, all of the current Countesses of Monpezat are members of the Royal House who do not legally carry a surname. It is written clearly in the press release which made Prince Henrik's marital male-line descendants Count and Countesses of Monpezat that "komtesse af Monpezat" is a title. For Isabella, Josephine, and Athena, and their brothers and fathers, "of Monpezat" is part of their title rather than their surname.

This legal situation could give rise to some interesting complications. For example, it would appear that if Prince Nikolai had a child out of wedlock, the child would be untitled according to the current rules of the nobility and the royal house and would presumably need a surname. But Prince Nikolai would have no legal surname to transmit to his child. (There would be other options in the naming law, including the mother's surname.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Here is a link to the text of the press release of April 30 2008, which Somebody's source posted in image form.



Pressemeddelelse

Amalienborg, den 30. april 2008

Hendes Majestæt Dronningen har besluttet, at Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsen samt Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachim tillægges titel af ’greve af Monpezat’. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsesse Mary samt Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Joachims kommende ægtefælle frk. Marie Cavallier vil som følge heraf føre titlen ’grevinde af Monpezat’.

Titlen føres endvidere af efterkommere født i lovligt ægteskab, i overensstemmelse med de almindelige regler, der gælder herom, hvilket vil sige, at titlen ’greve af Monpezat’ videreføres af mandlige descendenter, medens kvindelige descendenter fører titlen ’komtesse af Monpezat’.

Der er tale om en ny, yderligere titel der kan anvendes i tilknytning til de eksisterende. Titlen berører ikke de nugældende prædikater. Navn og titel vil herefter i kort form eksempelvis kunne være:

. Hans Kongelige Højhed Kronprins Frederik, greve af Monpezat
. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Kronprinsesse Mary, grevinde af Monpezat
. Hans Kongelige Højhed Prins Christian, greve af Monpezat
. Hendes Kongelige Højhed Prinsesse Isabella, komtesse af Monpezat

Eventuelle henvendelser på denne pressemeddelelse bedes rettet til Kabinetssekretariatet på telefon 3340 2484.


Henning Fode
Hendes Majestæt Dronningens Kabinetssekretær
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  #128  
Old 02-13-2022, 09:38 AM
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Aren't particles standard in a noble surname? Particles like af, von, and de are integrated parts of family names. This is different to the particle (or is it a preposition?) til (comparable with German zu) to denote his or her place of residence, for example;

Prins Joachim til Denmark (denotes his rank as a Prince of Denmark)

Greve af Monpezat (noble title in combination with family name).
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  #129  
Old 02-13-2022, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Aren't particles standard in a noble surname? Particles like af, von, and de are integrated parts of family names. This is different to the particle (or is it a preposition?) til (comparable with German zu) to denote his or her place of residence, for example;

Prins Joachim til Denmark (denotes his rank as a Prince of Denmark)

Greve af Monpezat (noble title in combination with family name).
Many Scandinavian noble families lack particles in their surnames. Danish examples are Rosenkrantz, Knuth, , Danneskiold-Samsøe etc... Some originally German families like the Rantzau and Schack have even lost their particles after centuries in Denmark.
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  #130  
Old 02-13-2022, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Technically they are entitled to get the title of princess, and so are any children.
However that is up to the monarch.
So it is very likely that Nikolai and Felix - and Henrik, will take the title of say Count de Montepezat and drop their princely title upon marriage. So we avoid ending up having flocks of royals roaming streets.

But wouldn't that appear as a slight to religion? That unmarried men (eventually with a girlfriend) are princes but as soon as they marry (in church) said girlfriend, both are suddenly only Greve and Grevinde? That's not what I wish for as a Danish church official. But that their children could only be a greve and a komtesse should be rather normal. Just like in Germany (not a monarchy, though, and title are only part of the family name) members of younger branches of families which have the right to call themselves prince/princess just use the family name. And obviously it was intended in Denmark to allow for the name of Monpezat be used as a family name after prince Henrik, while the queen had none.


On a different note: as SHSG is not a name but just a derivation of the place the family used to own, so just a dynastic term, could prince Charles of the UK as son of Philip SHSG, prince of Greece and Denmark, decided that from him onwards, the House of Windsor consists now of the House of SCG (the queen) and of SHSG (his father)? (He is a historian, I mean...)
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  #131  
Old 02-13-2022, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
But wouldn't that appear as a slight to religion? That unmarried men (eventually with a girlfriend) are princes but as soon as they marry (in church) said girlfriend, both are suddenly only Greve and Grevinde? That's not what I wish for as a Danish church official. But that their children could only be a greve and a komtesse should be rather normal.
If Nikolai and his brothers remained princes but their children were only countesses and counts, it would actually be a change from the current normal. For centuries the children born to Princes to Denmark have been Princes and Princesses to/of Denmark.


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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
On a different note: as SHSG is not a name but just a derivation of the place the family used to own, so just a dynastic term, could prince Charles of the UK as son of Philip SHSG, prince of Greece and Denmark, decided that from him onwards, the House of Windsor consists now of the House of SCG (the queen) and of SHSG (his father)? (He is a historian, I mean...)
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Questions about British Styles and Titles
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  #132  
Old 02-13-2022, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
If Nikolai and his brothers remained princes but their children were only countesses and counts, it would actually be a change from the current normal. For centuries the children born to Princes to Denmark have been Princes and Princesses to/of Denmark.
…as long as they were born in equal marriages. Given that the concept tends not to apply in the modern world, especially for extant monarchies who have to deal with the current public, it’s hard to say who gets to be or remain “Prince/ss” or not.

Perhaps that’s why Margrethe has basically avoided the issue, other than approving her sons’ and would-have stripped her cousin.
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  #133  
Old 02-13-2022, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
If Nikolai and his brothers remained princes but their children were only countesses and counts, it would actually be a change from the current normal. For centuries the children born to Princes to Denmark have been Princes and Princesses to/of Denmark.
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
…as long as they were born in equal marriages. [...]
All were born from equal marriages as Princes of Denmark who made unequal marriages immediately ceased to be Princes of Denmark upon the marriage. King Christian X allowed princes who married unequally to retain the style of HH Prince minus the territorial designation, but King Frederik IX removed those who married during his reign of all royal titles.
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  #134  
Old 09-28-2022, 09:03 AM
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The Palace has released an update to the changes of 2008 today, September 28:


** kongehuset: Changes in titles and forms of address in the Royal Family **


Quote:
(..) as of 1 January 2023, His Royal Highness Prince Joachim’s descendants can only use their titles as counts and countess of Monpezat, as the titles of prince and princess that they have held up until now will be discontinued. Prince Joachim’s descendants will thus have to be addressed as excellencies in the future. (..) With her decision, Her Majesty The Queen wishes to create the framework for the four grandchildren to be able to shape their own lives to a much greater extent without being limited by the special considerations and duties that a formal affiliation with the Royal House of Denmark as an institution involves.

All four grandchildren maintain their places in the order of succession.
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  #135  
Old 09-28-2022, 09:24 AM
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That's quite a decision but especially with the modelling careers of the eldest grandsons it does make sense to create a bit more distance. And in doing so, the Danish RF ends up a lot like the Dutch where only the children of the monarch or direct heirs are princes and princesses - and the others in male line descendance are count and countess. Also much better that this decision is been made by queen Margrethe than to wait for Frederik to do so.

It will be interesting to see what happens to any children the sisters of the heirs (Isabella and Josephine in Denmark and Alexia and Ariane in the Netherlands) will have.
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  #136  
Old 09-28-2022, 09:26 AM
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I wonder brought about this decision?
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  #137  
Old 09-28-2022, 09:30 AM
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It's an interesting but sensible decision. It's interesting that Prince Joachim's sons no longer have the titles of princes. I ask if Prince Joachim will agree with this decision and if he also had the influence to make it happen.

Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongelig...aeldre-er-dybt
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  #138  
Old 09-28-2022, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I wonder brought about this decision?
I assume it has been contemplated for a long time but the timing after her 50-year reign celebrations are over and shortly after her friend and fellow monarch passed away - highlighting the importance of ensuring a good transition and not letting Frederik deal with it - makes this a logical monent to do so.

It is much easier for Margrethe to strip her grandchildren of these titles than to have Frederik strip them from his nephews and niece. I don't think anyone in their sound mind would accuse Margrethe of loving these grandchildren less than the other half and playing favorites with Frederik's children, while people might have thought Frederik to be unkind etc. if he did the same thing to his brother's children as his mother is doing now.

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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
I wonder if in the future Prince Nikolai's wife and Prince Felix's wife will have the title of Princess?
Looks like we know the answer now. No, they will be countesses of Monpezat but not princesses of Denmark.

If Nikolai intends to marry soon (which I don't expect but who knows) that would also be a good reason to speed up the decision to let them continue their lives as counts of Monpezat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Technically they are entitled to get the title of princess, and so are any children.
However that is up to the monarch.
So it is very likely that Nikolai and Felix - and Henrik, will take the title of say Count de Montepezat and drop their princely title upon marriage. So we avoid ending up having flocks of royals roaming streets.
Good guess, except for the queen calling the shots ahead of any marriage they might contemplate.

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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
Billed Bladet spoke to Countess Alexandra's secretary who says they are all saddened and shocked by the Royal Household's decision to withdraw the titles of princes from Prince Joachim's children.

https://www.billedbladet.dk/kongelig...aeldre-er-dybt
Wow, and she has the audacity to make that public... Alexandra's secretary claims that all three parents are deeply shocked by this decision. And big words about loss of identity are being used.

Quote:
We are all confused by the decision.*We are saddened and in shock.*This comes like a bolt from the blue.*The children feel ostracized.*They cannot understand why their identity is being taken away from them.*
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  #139  
Old 09-28-2022, 09:46 AM
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It is exactly alike the Dutch situation where the offspring of the younger sons of Queen Beatrix have the hereditary title graaf (gravin) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg and the form of address hooggeboren heer (vrouwe) - which is only used in formal correspondence.

Optically it distances them from the Royal House and that is indeed an advantage in pursuing an own life and career.
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  #140  
Old 09-28-2022, 09:54 AM
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The timing is really odd. It would have made more sense to do it when they first added the Monpezat-titles, or when the kids applied for permission to marry. Not just randomly in a jubilee year.

But it may well be that Margrethe don’t want Frederik to deal with potential backlash over decisions when he takes over.
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