The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations 1: Ending 2022

[Nico]

The RFO for Catherine could have been painted on porcelain, as an alternative to ivory. Tagua is also an excellent alternative for animal ivory. There are also miniatures with oil-paint on copper, which works excellent. Here you see an example of an alternative: Willem IV of Nassau, Prince of Orange, wearing the Order of the Garter on a miniature for his spouse Anne of Great Britain and Hanover, The Princess Royal. The portrait, encrusted with diamonds, is painted with enamel on copper, which has the same characteristics as glass, so it still has the original strong colours it had in 1734. (Collection of the Dutch Royal House). With other words: the ivory will not be the problem for a RFO, plenty of alternatives.

Of course Ivory is not the problem. kate didn't receive the RFO, period.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Why do the people who soooo... want/expect Catherine to have the order, casually dismiss why Sarah did not receive the order?

Sarah was a senior member of the royal family she had 2 children in less than 2 years yet she did not receive the RFO.

In 1989, while pregnant with Eugenie she had 327 engagements.

How many, if any, State Banquets did Sarah attend?

If Sarah did not attend the 'required' State Banquets maybe that could be the answer.

Or it could be the Queen changed her mind about handing them out just because a woman married her son.

The Queen seem to expect more from the women than the men, at least since 1986.

I think the Queen has her reasons but for the life of me I cannot figure out why Sophie has the Dame of Justice Venerable Order of Saint John but Camilla does not.

Sophie received the DJStJ a year of two after her charity work in healthcare.

Camilla does not have the DJStJ and she has been promoting health related charities for over 20 years.

This is a much bigger oversight than a parttime Catherine not receiving the RFO after only four years.

 

[Dman]

Trying to figure out The Queen's own system on giving senior female members of the royal family the family order will make your head spin, yet alone knighthoods.

 

[Zonk]

Seeing that other Princesses got their RFO as a kiddie or a teen, we can forget the requirement that someone needs to be a "fulltime royal". Was Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone "a fulltime royal"? Was Princess Alice, Countess of Gloucester "a fulltime royal"? Was Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent "a fulltime royal"? Is Katharine, Duchess of Kent "a fulltime royal"? Is Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester "a fulltime royal"? All of them did/do not belong to the core royal family. All three of them did/do so now and then a royal engagement. And that was/is it.

To answer your questions, yes a majority of them were full time royals.

Obviously, Katharine Duchess of Kent no longer does engagements but when she was a working member of the family she was a working member of the family. Marina, Duchess of Kent represented the Queen on many occasions. To this day, Duchess of Gloucester does on average 90 events a year on behalf of The Queen.

I am not confident, but I am pretty sure Alice, Countess of Athlone, granddaughter of Queen Victoria received hers because of who she was (and honestly it would seem crazy that she had four others but didn't have one from the Queen) but she did carry out engagements on behalf of the Queen as well. It's worth noting that the late Princess Marie Louise didn't receive a RFO from the Queen or George VI (or if they did, its not documented in Wikipedia). So I don't think the Queen was just giving them out early in her reign.

Prior to the Queen's children getting older and taking on engagements...her cousins and their wives....stepped up and did what needed to be done for the last 20 to 30 years in assisting the Queen with royal engagements.

 

[carlota]

I'm not sure full-time positions have much to do with it. Both William and Harry have received honors from The Queen and they're not full-time royals.

It's just after nearly 5 years of faithful royal service to The Queen and Commonwealth and as a senior working royal, the expectation for Catherine to have the Royal Family Order is there. If not by her 5th wedding anniversary, it just wouldn't look right. I know it's a bit strange for me and some others to question The Queen's largely unknown system, but after all this time and two heirs produced, it causes me to raise an eyebrow that she hasn't yet to receive it. Now just maybe it's all down to Catherine needing to attend another State event.

it is indeed puzzling. one would have expected kate to have her order on time for her first state banquet, after 4 years in the family, 2 children to be the next generatiion, and being 'higher in rank' than other ladies who have received it.

 

[royal rob]

Maybe the Queen is getting forgetful might need someone to remind her about Kate.
??


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[cepe]

To answer your questions, yes a majority of them were full time royals.

Obviously, Katharine Duchess of Kent no longer does engagements but when she was a working member of the family she was a working member of the family. Marina, Duchess of Kent represented the Queen on many occasions. To this day, Duchess of Gloucester does on average 90 events a year on behalf of The Queen.

I am not confident, but I am pretty sure Alice, Countess of Athlone, granddaughter of Queen Victoria received hers because of who she was (and honestly it would seem crazy that she had four others but didn't have one from the Queen) but she did carry out engagements on behalf of the Queen as well. It's worth noting that the late Princess Marie Louise didn't receive a RFO from the Queen or George VI (or if they did, its not documented in Wikipedia). So I don't think the Queen was just giving them out early in her reign.

Prior to the Queen's children getting older and taking on engagements...her cousins and their wives....stepped up and did what needed to be done for the last 20 to 30 years in assisting the Queen with royal engagements.

I have a reference book by Hugo Vickers which covers all Royal Orders. He states that HMQ gave her RO at the same time to:
QEQM
Queen Mary
Princess Margaret
Princess Royal
Princess MArina
Princess Alexandra
Princess Alice
Duchess of Gloucester.

All of these already had GVI RFO - I think that if you already have one, then you automatically get the next.

 

[Skippyboo]

That's basically all the adult Royal females at the time. Alexandra would have been 16 in 1952. I imagine when Charles takes the throne, he would do the same sort of thing with Camilla, Kate, Anne, Sophie, Alexandra, Duchess of Gloucester, Duchess of Kent. Maybe Princess Michael may even get one.


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[Queen Camilla]

IMO, I believe there are more than 8 RFO of QEII.

I do not think they are/were recycled at least not most of them.

In 1952/3, except for Queen Mary most of the other women were still fairly young. Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone was 69/70.

Princess Anne and Prince Charles were already born so it would have been expected that Anne would receive one and Charles' future wife would receive one and there was always the possibility that the 26 year old Queen would have more children so it would have made sense to have a dozen or two made in 1952/3.

Zara may have received Queen Mary's QEII RFO as a memento of the Queen's grandmother to her granddaughter. (Unless it was given to Princess Anne.)

If Zara did receive the RFO, then Princess Beatrice may have received or will receive QEQM's QEII RFO.

This gift would be different than to her daughter-in-laws or granddaughter in law.

The married in may have to earn a new one, while the granddaughters receive a used one.

 

[Isabella]

Why do the people who soooo... want/expect Catherine to have the order, casually dismiss why Sarah did not receive the order?

Sarah was a senior member of the royal family she had 2 children in less than 2 years yet she did not receive the RFO.

In 1989, while pregnant with Eugenie she had 327 engagements.

How many, if any, State Banquets did Sarah attend?

If Sarah did not attend the 'required' State Banquets maybe that could be the answer.

Or it could be the Queen changed her mind about handing them out just because a woman married her son.

The Queen seem to expect more from the women than the men, at least since 1986.

I think the Queen has her reasons but for the life of me I cannot figure out why Sophie has the Dame of Justice Venerable Order of Saint John but Camilla does not.

Sophie received the DJStJ a year of two after her charity work in healthcare.

Camilla does not have the DJStJ and she has been promoting health related charities for over 20 years.

This is a much bigger oversight than a parttime Catherine not receiving the RFO after only four years.

Might the DJStJ issue have to do with the fact that Sophie is the Grand President of St John Ambulance? (And, FWIW, Sophie was also involved in promoting health-related charities prior to her marriage, but I'm not sure if that sort of thing is relevant in this case).

 

[King of the Jungle]

The RFO for Catherine could have been painted on porcelain, as an alternative to ivory. Tagua is also an excellent alternative for animal ivory. There are also miniatures with oil-paint on copper, which works excellent. Here you see an example of an alternative: Willem IV of Nassau, Prince of Orange, wearing the Order of the Garter on a miniature for his spouse Anne of Great Britain and Hanover, The Princess Royal. The portrait, encrusted with diamonds, is painted with enamel on copper, which has the same characteristics as glass, so it still has the original strong colours it had in 1734. (Collection of the Dutch Royal House). With other words: the ivory will not be the problem for a RFO, plenty of alternatives.

Let's not be forgetting the modern marshmellow portraits!
The alternatives of copper and porcelain do possess a robust durability more in keeping with ivory.

 

[Dman]

I think I have been given the answer to my question as to why Catherine hasn't seen wearing her Royal Family Order? Ivory is the problem.

William has said that he's trying to get rid ivory in the palace, it would be hypocritical of Catherine to wear an order that's made with ivory.

It seems like the RFO's will have to be changed.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I hope I don't sound cruel when I say this because my intention is the exact opposite.

In regards to existing RFO the ones that are already being worn, we can't give the ivory back to the animal it was taken from. We can't undo the damage that has already been done. But we can make it right in the future. If RFOs aren't "pre made", then there shouldn't be a problem for Catherine to have one made in a different material should she be given one. The same goes for other Ivory items.

 

[Dman]

I hope I don't sound cruel when I say this because my intention is the exact opposite.

In regards to existing RFO the ones that are already being worn, we can't give the ivory back to the animal it was taken from. We can't undo the damage that has already been done. But we can make it right in the future. If RFOs aren't "pre made", then there shouldn't be a problem for Catherine to have one made in a different material should she be given one. The same goes for other Ivory items.

I agree, I think a new version RFO should be made for Catherine. I used to think she just didn't receive it yet, but I think she would have it by now. Now that William is so dead set against ivory, it wouldn't be right for Catherine to wear the order that's made with ivory. I'm not sure she, William and the palace want those headlines.

Now, I'm wondering if a problem would arise; if Catherine wear a new version of the order without ivory, but other members of the royal family continue to wear their orders that's made with ivory.

It would be better if new orders are made under The Queen's reign or wait until Charles ascends to the throne.

 

[Skippyboo]

The Royal Family Order (RFO) and other Royal Orders and Decorations

The others who are wearing the ivory orders already aren't married to a person publicly campaigning against poaching and ivory use. Kate is.

The RFOs for Charles will be on a non ivory base probably porcelain. When those are been made, make a Queen Elizabeth one that Kate can use.

New orders aren't going to made in the Queen's reign because most of the people already have one and there are ones that used to belong to deceased royals. Kate and Charlotte are the only potential candidates. Harry's wife potentially

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[Osipi]

I hope I don't sound cruel when I say this because my intention is the exact opposite.

In regards to existing RFO the ones that are already being worn, we can't give the ivory back to the animal it was taken from. We can't undo the damage that has already been done. But we can make it right in the future. If RFOs aren't "pre made", then there shouldn't be a problem for Catherine to have one made in a different material should she be given one. The same goes for other Ivory items.

I totally agree with this. The ones that have already been made and presented that were made out of ivory mean something very special to the ones that have them and they shouldn't be cast aside or replaced. With William's endeavors to eradicate the illegal poaching of animals for their ivory, it does give just cause to stand behind him and all future RFOs to be made of a different material than ivory.

With such a short time remaining in the reign of HM and other than Kate, no others in the wings to be presented with a RFO, the change will probably take effect at the ascension of Charles to the throne. This reinforces my beliefs as I've stated before that at the Chinese state banquet, the loan of HM's wedding bracelet which has never been worn by anyone other than HM, was given on loan to Kate as a means of conveying the message that although Kate's RFO is on hold for the moment, the bracelet loan was a symbolic one to show that HM holds Kate in quite a high regard.

 

[Skippyboo]

Kate could have been given the RFO but chooses not to wear it because of the ivory with the Queen's blessing.


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[Nico]

Kate could have been given the RFO but chooses not to wear it because of the ivory with the Queen's blessing.


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Oh please, with all due respect it's a ridiculous excuse.
The RFO can be made especially for her without ivory.
She didn't receive it because shs's not a full time working member of the BRF. Period.

 

[Dman]

Kate could have been given the RFO but chooses not to wear it because of the ivory with the Queen's blessing.


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I think she already have it. I think ivory is the problem, but hopefully a new version will be made for her. She should be seen with her order under the reign of Elizabeth II.

She most likely already have the Diamond Jubliee Medal, but I'm not sure when she would wear the medal.

 

[Rudolph]

It's not out of the realm of possibility. William is a global leader in the fight against the ivory trade, imagine the front page of the DM if Kate is seen wearing an ivory brooch.

I think for the time being we won't see Kate wearing a RFO

 

[Dman]

Oh please, with all due respect it's a ridiculous excuse.
The RFO can be made especially for her without ivory.
She didn't receive it because shs's not a full time working member of the BRF. Period.

It doesn't matter if she's not a full-time royal. She has served The Queen and Commonwealth and have given the monarchy two heirs. She's either already have or will soon receive her order. It's not an order that take years and years of service to get.

The order being made with ivory is a serious problem, because it's her husband and father-in-law that's fighting against ivory trade. He just said that he's working getting ivory out of the palace. What signal will it send to the media and public that Catherine wear an order that's made with ivory? That's not a headline she, William and palace officials will likely want.

There's nothing wrong with giving Catherine a new version of the order without the use of ivory. The order will change anyway in Charles's and William's reigns.

This not an excuse but a serious issue.

 

[Nico]

I think she already have it. I think ivory is the problem, but hopefully a new version will be made for her. She should be seen with her order under the reign of Elizabeth II.

She most likely already have the Diamond Jubliee Medal, but I'm not sure when she would wear the medal.

Kate wore possum fur gloves in Courchevel without a care in the world about the bad press. She could have worn the highest mark of respect from the Queen, surrounded by all the other royal ladies wearing their very own order, without any problem.

Camilla get an order made of ivory , and she supports Charity Elephant Family.

 

[Dman]

Kate wore ossum fur gloves in Courchevel without a care in the world about the bad press. She could have worn the highest mark of respect from the Queen, surrounded by all the other royal ladies wearing their very own order, without any problem.

Camilla get an order made of ivory , and she supports Charity Elephant Family.

Yeah, but the family aren't fighting against fur.

I just think the use of ivory in this order is the problem. If not, there's no reason why Catherine should not get and wear her order.

 

[miss whirley]

Kate wore possum fur gloves in Courchevel without a care in the world about the bad press. She could have worn the highest mark of respect from the Queen, surrounded by all the other royal ladies wearing their very own order, without any problem.

Camilla get an order made of ivory , and she supports Charity Elephant Family.

Comparing possum with African elephants is a mighty stretch. I guess people who wear leather can’t care about endangered species, either.

The charity Camilla is involved with supports Asian Elephants, not African. But I agree it’s a bad look for Camilla. It’s a bad look for all the ladies of the BRF who wear one.

 

[Osipi]

Yeah, but the family aren't fighting against fur.

I just think the use of ivory in this order is the problem. If not, there's no reason why Catherine should not get and wear her order.

Another aspect of why she wouldn't have worn an ivory RFO to the Chinese state dinner is because of the ongoing efforts by William to get the Chinese on board with the United for Wildlife campaign. William had recently been to China as a representative of HM and started dialogue while there and also while President Xi Jinping was in the UK, a conservation documentary featuring William was being broadcast in China.

It would have really been a faux pas for HM and Kate to ignore the implications of this. If the RFO had always been made out of porcelain, I'm sure we would have seen Kate wearing it that night.

 

[Nico]

It would have really been a faux pas for HM and Kate to ignore the implications of this. If the RFO had always been made out of porcelain, I'm sure we would have seen Kate wearing it that night.

But the Queen wore her two (ivory) orders in front of the Chinese President. Anne, the Duchess of Gloucester and Princess Alexandra were there too, and wore their respective orders.
Would have been an extroardinary double standard to "protect" Kate from a bad PR move and let all the other royal ladies to be exposed to a potential diplomatic disaster.
Why is it so unthinkable to consider Kate without the RFO, at least for now ? We all know that Sarah didn't receive one (and she served the Crown and the Commonwealth) and Princess Michael is still waiting.
She will receive it i'm sure, in due time.

 

[Dman]

But the Queen wore her two (ivory) orders in front of the Chinese President. Anne, the Duchess of Gloucester and Princess Alexandra were there too, and wore their respective orders.
Would have been an extroardinary double standard to "protect" Kate from a bad PR move and let all the other royal ladies to be exposed to a potential diplomatic disaster.
Why is it so unthinkable to consider Kate without the RFO, at least for now ? We all know that Sarah didn't receive one (and she served the Crown and the Commonwealth) and Princess Michael is still waiting.
She will receive it i'm sure, in due time.

Yeah, but those royals aren't going after the ivory trade industry, Catherine's husband is and that would've been a bad move. This is the Cambridge's cause.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Kate could have been given the RFO but chooses not to wear it because of the ivory with the Queen's blessing.


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There are few places in the whole United Kingdom so studded with ivory items as Buckingham Palace. From the keyboards of the piano to the chess pieces, from the inlay of wooden cabinets to the envelope-opener, from the holder of a fan to the handle of a 17th C silver teapot... Ivory everywhere. What will she do? Remove all what contains ivory out of all the royal residences? The animals will not come back to life again. When Catherine is already so fussy about the RFO... girl... when will you stop then, just look around in the palaces!

 

[Nico]

Yeah, but those royals aren't going after the ivory trade industry, Catherine's husband is and that would've been a bad move. This is the Cambridge's cause.

So Wiliiam's grandmother, aunts and cousins made an apparent bad move that night by wearing their RFO. OK.
We might add that Kate didn't wear any order during the diplomatic reception last november. Any excuse about it ? A shortage of porcelain in uk perhaps ? C'mon.

 

[Jacknch]

Common sense tells me that Catherine has not received the RFO yet - if she had have done, we would know. If and when she receives the Order, I have no doubt it will not contain ivory and will be made of porcelain or enamel or something.