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  #461  
Old 02-08-2009, 12:04 PM
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kate seems like mature and demure woman. I call her woman, because how she seems to act, like a woman not a girl. It looks that both she and William handle media crazy attention very well as a couple.
But I wouldn't be surprised if they never marry. Love may die off and William who is not ready to marry anyone now, will end up marrying someone else later when he is ready for marriage.
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  #462  
Old 02-08-2009, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
From Times online


Kate Middleton: man-pleaser


For the record I don't believe that horse allergy story but I find the analysis spot on regardless.


To sum it up. Boring.
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  #463  
Old 02-08-2009, 01:17 PM
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............Regardless if these two ladies irk you just ignore their names and just consider the qualities I enumerated, as this was my ultimate point.
I agree the qualities that you listed are exactly those that are need by the future wife of William, the problem comes when we try to agree on who has had qualities. Some people will say that Maxima is so charismatic and I just find her to be a bit scary with her over enthusiastic way, she reminds me a little of Sarah Ferguson ( that’s not meant as an insult). Some people say Mary is lacks warmth and is too professional in her role but I think she across as warm, caring and has a genuine interest in those she is meeting. I think that perhaps as a quite, shy and discreet person I am drawn more to the quieter Mary than the loud, playful Maxima. When it comes to Kate there is really only photographs to go by as we have nothing from the woman herself to judge on but I do find a quiet, shy charisma about her in photographs, as for the rest I guess we will have to wait and see if we get to ‘meet’ her to decide what qualities from your list she is blessed with.

Here is what Kathy Lette had to say about Kate. (at end of aticle) Mail Online - Katie Nicholl's Celebrity Diary
  #464  
Old 02-08-2009, 01:26 PM
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Thoroughbred? Like the horses she is supposed to be allergic too. There is nothing wrong with being shy but it would be a handicap for someone in the role she aspires too, but then again she might be satisfied to stay out of the limelight as Camilla did and hope that sometime in the future she will succeed as Camilla did (with some success I must add).
  #465  
Old 02-08-2009, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
Oh I know about Grace being the village bicycle and a professional mistress during her time in Hollywood. It's pretty irrelevant to me though when judging her as a royal consort. I am surprised you who hold her youthful promiscuity against her considering your love of Camilla who was just as bad.
As far as Jackie O, could you develop how you though she was lacking as a first lady?
Regardless if these two ladies irk you just ignore their names and just consider the qualities I enumerated, as this was my ultimate point.This book seems really fascinating (thank you for the link) but Google won't let me read it. Do I have to register somewhere?
I wasn't judging Grace Kelly on her sexual past, merely on the fact that she was a fashion model and actress (described as a sex kitten), neither of which seem good references for a successful royal consort. I couldn't say I 'love' Camilla, but I happen to think she is a really nice person and as I said, we all have our own ideals.

JackieO made a great First Lady, for her American audience but as a British Princess, I think she would have been a disaster, the same really for Grace Kelly. They seemed more interested in fashion than is acceptable to many (some) Britons.

JackiO came from money, only had a minor stab at a job, because of her family position. The only difference I can see between her and Kate, is that Kate is new money and not a fashion plate. JO reminds me more of Diana, both appeared to be full of their own self importance and family worth. This of course is my own opinion, based on the little I have read about jackie O and Grace Kelly, never having 'known' them.

I'm sorry, I don't know why you cannot access the Google article.
--------------
I think the important thing to remember, bearing in mind the article you posted, is that a successful long term marriage involves effort on both parts. For each to take an interest in the things the other is interested in, a genuine interest. This I believe Kate has demonstrated and for all we know, so has William, it is possible to show a keen interest in photography, without being seen with a camera around your neck.
  #466  
Old 02-08-2009, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
From Times online


Kate Middleton: man-pleaser


For the record I don't believe that horse allergy story but I find the analysis spot on regardless.
Eh, it's one person's opinion, based on tidbits of information. Nothing really new about it, either; lots of people have been insinuating for a long while now that Kate is more preoccupied with pleasing her prince than pleasing herself. Might be true, might not be -- and it's Kate's decision to conduct her life either way if she chooses. I wouldn't personally enjoy living that way, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

Personally, as far as the horse nonsense goes, if it is true (and I'm skeptical, too, Idriel), I have to wonder about what we are missing here -- tone of voice, context, etc. The bit about discussing the polo match in minute detail sounds like something that might have been delivered with a bit of gentle sarcasm (one of those "oh, we all know how much these princes blather on about polo" sorts of things). I suppose we shall never know.
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  #467  
Old 02-08-2009, 03:27 PM
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The present Queen is known to be shy. I'm a shy person myself; but when I have to "meet and greet", I can put on my social face and do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Menarue View Post
There is nothing wrong with being shy but it would be a handicap for someone in the role she aspires too
  #468  
Old 02-08-2009, 03:31 PM
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Amelia, I agree with your comment, but as always, I just state my opinions, fully aware that they are just that.
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
I wasn't judging Grace Kelly on her sexual past, merely on the fact that she was a fashion model and actress (described as a sex kitten), neither of which seem good references for a successful royal consort.
I apologise for misinterpreting your post. What possibly threw me off was that Grace the actress wasn't known as a sex kitten (that was reserved for women like Brigitte Bardot or Ava Gardner) but as an icy, patrician beauty. Regardless of where she came from she, imo, stepped up to the plate beautifully. I think William would be incredibly lucky to find a woman who does so well as a consort.
Quote:
I couldn't say I 'love' Camilla, but I happen to think she is a really nice person and as I said, we all have our own ideals.
Sorry, my remark was uncalled for.
Quote:
JackiO came from money, only had a minor stab at a job, because of her family position. The only difference I can see between her and Kate, is that Kate is new money and not a fashion plate.
JO was also worldly, spoke many languages, had an acute interest in cultural matters and was sophisticated. None of which would apply to Kate, as far as I know, but she may be an undercover intellectual powerhouse.
As for the rest of your remarks, many people share your opinion and I agree to a degree but I don't think it ever hindered her public role. I don't believe the role of a public figure is to make you want to be their best friends, but to effectively serve the institutions they represent.
Quote:
I think the important thing to remember, bearing in mind the article you posted, is that a successful long term marriage involves effort on both parts. For each to take an interest in the things the other is interested in, a genuine interest. This I believe Kate has demonstrated and for all we know, so has William, it is possible to show a keen interest in photography, without being seen with a camera around your neck.
There is no doubt in my mind that would Kate and William marry their union would be happy, at least for some time, nor do I doubt William is happy since, imo, she is the geisha type and men love that.

But I am not solely concerned with matter of domestic bliss. There has been many historical examples of royal love matches who harmed the royal institution because the groom or bride wasn't up to the role (worst case scenario being the last Tsarina of Russia).
William isn't just a man but also a Prince and so I am also concerned about what a potential bride would bring to the monarchy, to the royal family and to the country. .
In my opinion, Kate would bring nothing of note.
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  #469  
Old 02-08-2009, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Amelia, I agree with your comment, but as always, I just state my opinions, fully aware that they are just that

I know you do, I guess in my long-winded round about way I was saying that really William will never be able to marry the woman who is ‘just the girl the Royal Family needs’ because we all think she needs to be such different things.

Quote:
In my opinion, Kate would bring nothing of note.
I have learned the hard way to not even try imagine what type of Princesses the commoner fiancées of the Princes will make. One that I thought would be an empowering, go-getting, force to be reckoned princess turned out to be, well nothing, and one that I imagined would be nothing more than the ribbon cutting, fluffy charity work princess turned out to be quit surprising. I think with the future wives/husbands I’ll take the wait and see attitude. Can’t be too disappointed that way
  #470  
Old 02-08-2009, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
I agree the qualities that you listed are exactly those that are need by the future wife of William, the problem comes when we try to agree on who has had qualities. Some people will say that Maxima is so charismatic and I just find her to be a bit scary with her over enthusiastic way, she reminds me a little of Sarah Ferguson ( that’s not meant as an insult). Some people say Mary is lacks warmth and is too professional in her role but I think she across as warm, caring and has a genuine interest in those she is meeting. I think that perhaps as a quite, shy and discreet person I am drawn more to the quieter Mary than the loud, playful Maxima. When it comes to Kate there is really only photographs to go by as we have nothing from the woman herself to judge on but I do find a quiet, shy charisma about her in photographs, as for the rest I guess we will have to wait and see if we get to ‘meet’ to decide what qualities from your list she is blessed with.
I agree with you. The difference of opinion on Kate, Chelsy, Sarah, Camilla, etc. to some extent (not completely) comes down to different tastes and personalities. For some, a discreet, conservative, dutiful personality is comfortingly predictable: for others, these same qualities are written off as boring. Some people see opinionated, spontaneous, outgoing personalities as a threat to the stability of the royal family: others welcome such people as a "breath of fresh air." To some extent we probably like people who are like ourselves, or who have qualities we'd wish to have.

I won't deny that Kate bores me, as does William to an extent, and I still put it down to the fact that I can't really identify any driving passion or interest in either of their lives. Much as I don't agree with many of Charles' opinions, I've always admired him for his dedication to his favourite causes. That being said, it kind of annoys me that the papers always represent Kate as "a man-pleaser." Just because we don't know much about her other than the fact that she's regularly seen at William's side, and just because they're not yet married, doesn't mean that Kate's driving purpose in life is to hang on to William, or that she's some kind of ruthless social climber.
  #471  
Old 02-09-2009, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Idriel View Post
What possibly threw me off was that Grace the actress wasn't known as a sex kitten
When I recall anyone from that era talking about Grace Kelly, they refer to her as a sex kitten or a sex siren, but then again these were men talking.
Quote:
.JO was also worldly, spoke many languages, had an acute interest in cultural matters and was sophisticated. None of which would apply to Kate, as far as I know, but she may be an undercover intellectual powerhouse.
Thats just it, we don't know whether Kate takes an avid interest in cultural affairs, we don't know how many languages she speaks and it seems that because we don't know, people prefer to believe that she has no such qualities. Did we know, at the start that JO had any qualities? There again we all have different memories of what we recall from her very short time in the Whitehouse, before that she was unknown in the UK, I would think and faded from the news after her 1st husbands death.
Quote:
There is no doubt in my mind that would Kate and William marry their union would be happy, at least for some time, nor do I doubt William is happy since, imo, she is the geisha type and men love that.
I can't think of any men in my circle that would love a geisha type or a yes woman, again, we don't know if Kate is a yes woman, everyone presumes that it is William calling the shots, it could be Kate wanting to hang on to the freedom she has for a few more years, that I can certainly understand!
  #472  
Old 02-09-2009, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
we don't know if Kate is a yes woman, everyone presumes that it is William calling the shots, it could be Kate wanting to hang on to the freedom she has for a few more years, that I can certainly understand!
Could be, could be not. My guess is that it is .............
  #473  
Old 02-09-2009, 03:58 PM
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Comparing Jackie Kennedy to Kate Middleton is pointless imho because you are comparing 2 very different women from 2 very different time periods.

When Jackie married JFK it was the done thing for women of her class, social circle etc to marry well. That's essentially what she was reared to do.

Thankfully times have changed and women are no longer simply seen as commodities to hang on their husband's arms. That is why people find Kate's willingness to cling to William like a limpet (my opinion) so bizarre.
  #474  
Old 02-09-2009, 04:53 PM
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Jackie Kennedy was timeless, a classic!! Nor do we know enough about Kate to even venture to go there. Jackie Kennedy married for love and her years in the White House were (sorry for the pun )... Our own Royal family....that holds many windows of love, loss, joy,greatness and her story is not one to compare to a girl who is still wet behind the ears and has not done anything in a great mannor (yet) I find it hard to see the two in the same book let alone on the same page...when it comes to the life of someone like Jackie Kennedy Onassis ...Kate Milddleton is just not there...( IMHO)
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  #475  
Old 02-09-2009, 06:07 PM
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Comparing Jackie Kennedy to Kate Middleton is pointless imho because you are comparing 2 very different women from 2 very different time periods.
Agreed. Apart from the fact that they were/are both the significant others of powerful, famous men, there's really not much else that compares.
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  #476  
Old 02-09-2009, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little_star View Post
When Jackie married JFK it was the done thing for women of her class, social circle etc to marry well. That's essentially what she was reared to do.
As it is for many now, but times have changed allowing women to choose what path they want to follow. That is one of the great changes, freedom of choice.
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Originally Posted by lady Anne View Post
Jackie Kennedy was timeless, a classic!! Nor do we know enough about Kate to even venture to go there. Jackie Kennedy married for love and her years in the White House were (sorry for the pun )... Our own Royal family....that holds many windows of love, loss, joy,greatness and her story is not one to compare to a girl who is still wet behind the ears and has not done anything in a great mannor (yet) I find it hard to see the two in the same book let alone on the same page...when it comes to the life of someone like Jackie Kennedy Onassis ...Kate Milddleton is just not there...( IMHO)
The difference, IMO, is the view of an American towards someone who they feel was famous. But famous for what, being the wife of a assassinated president, dressing well? JO can be compared to Kate, purely because neither had done anything of note before becoming involved with a well known man. You say she married for love as if Kate does not love William, but only a woman in love would put up with all the negative stories, pursuit and lack of privacy that seems to be visited on Kate.
  #477  
Old 02-09-2009, 07:59 PM
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As it is for many now, but times have changed allowing women to choose what path they want to follow. That is one of the great changes, freedom of choice.
Except, IMO, the only reason Kate is on this path is because of the man she is dating.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skydragon
The difference, IMO, is the view of an American towards someone who they feel was famous. But famous for what, being the wife of a assassinated president, dressing well? JO can be compared to Kate, purely because neither had done anything of note before becoming involved with a well known man. You say she married for love as if Kate does not love William, but only a woman in love would put up with all the negative stories, pursuit and lack of privacy that seems to be visited on Kate.
Jackie Kennedy worked before she became Mrs. Kennedy at a time when she could very easily have not have done. JFK was not that well-known when they met, he had just started his Senate campaign. Moreover she had to start her marriage as a political wife, deal with a husband who suffered a horrible illness (Addison's disease) and face serious fertility problems that resulted in miscarriages and a stillbirth.

We have very different opinions on Kate, you choose to believe she loves William, IMO she loves his position much more....
  #478  
Old 02-09-2009, 09:03 PM
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we don't know whether Kate takes an avid interest in cultural affairs, we don't know how many languages she speaks and it seems that because we don't know, people prefer to believe that she has no such qualities.
I chose to believe she doesn't because there isn't the slightest hint that she does.
If she had been fluent in foreign languages it would have been mentioned in one of those glowing Hello style reports that were the norm at the beginning (and still are, in Hello obviously).
I mean, we know she was good in sports at school, that she was bullied, what she did on a gap year, etc. but she somehow manages to be multilingual without anybody noticing? I don't think so.
As for cultural interests, I will repeat the same thing as I have said about William: show me a single picture of Kate anywhere near a cultural institution. The only instance I ever heard about her doing something high-brow was a sighting of her giggling wildly during a Pinter play (that old comic genius).
She may have managed to visit museums and theatres and enjoy the bursting London cultural scene incognito on a regular basis without ever being caught in the many years she lived there but then the supposed paparazzi harassment has been grossly overstated (or alternatively, it's the proof that she can be left alone when she doesn't frequent paps magnets places like Boujis, take your pick).
Quote:
Did we know, at the start that JO had any qualities?
Yes. Within their social circles the Bouvier sisters were notorious for their intelligence and sophistication. They even published a very witty book relating their stay in Paris when still in their twenties, so yeah it was known they were worldly and spoke fluent French (Jackie also spoke Spanish).
Quote:
everyone presumes that it is William calling the shots, it could be Kate wanting to hang on to the freedom she has for a few more years, that I can certainly understand!
What you call freedom I call a rot personally.
She is very soon to be a 30 year-old-woman with a hardly any accomplishments to claim her own, whose options are very limited (mostly because of the choices she made), with no formal commitment (a private promise can always be broken, it wouldn't be the first time in history) and who is increasingly the object of public ridicule. Considering she stays in the relationship regardless, it's pretty clear where the balance of power lies in this relationship imo.
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Originally Posted by Little_star View Post
Comparing Jackie Kennedy to Kate Middleton is pointless imho because you are comparing 2 very different women from 2 very different time periods.
Indeed, but so is the idea of a monarchy. The requirements for a royal bride haven't changed that much in 50 years, unlike the situation of the average woman.
This is definitely not a feminist position, just look at Leticia in Spain or any other royal consort.
Quote:
When Jackie married JFK it was the done thing for women of her class, social circle etc to marry well. That's essentially what she was reared to do.
Those things haven't changed much in some social circles. The major difference is that in addition to social graces, these women are expected to have careers and achievements of their own (at least until motherhood).
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Originally Posted by Little_star View Post
We have very different opinions on Kate, you choose to believe she loves William, IMO she loves his position much more....
My opinion also.
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  #479  
Old 02-09-2009, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Skydragon View Post
As it is for many now, but times have changed allowing women to choose what path they want to follow. That is one of the great changes, freedom of choice.
The difference, IMO, is the view of an American towards someone who they feel was famous. But famous for what, being the wife of a assassinated president, dressing well? JO can be compared to Kate, purely because neither had done anything of note before becoming involved with a well known man. You say she married for love as if Kate does not love William, but only a woman in love would put up with all the negative stories, pursuit and lack of privacy that seems to be visited on Kate.
I actually totally agree with you on that point Sky. I really don't think most women in her situation IMO would sit around for how long has it been now 5 years and watch her life be torn into shreds by the press if she really wasn't in love with her boyfriend. I just think we don't have that much information on her to judge her properly. I mean yes there have been positive reports in the past and stuff but we're not going to find out alot just from a few positive reports. She could do other things in private that her "friends" or "source close to the family" (I'm using the brackets like that cause that's how the papers always write it) don't know about hence it not being reported. I'm not saying that any of this is true this I'm just using that type of scenario as an example to show why we might not be able to form a proper judgment on her yet, but we are allowed to believe what we want to believe from what we hear/see.

ETA: I apologize if I've contradicted myself but I know what I was trying to say just not too sure if it came out that way.
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Old 02-10-2009, 02:23 AM
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[quote=Idriel;890905]I chose to believe she doesn't because there isn't the slightest hint that she does.
If she had been fluent in foreign languages it would have been mentioned in one of those glowing Hello style reports that were the norm at the beginning (and still are, in Hello obviously).
I mean, we know she was good in sports at school, that she was bullied, what she did on a gap year, etc. but she somehow manages to be multilingual without anybody noticing? I don't think so.




Vanity Fair mentioned during her gap year she spent three months
in Florence learning Italian and Art History at the British Institute. And it is possible, IMO pretty likely she continued her Italian course at St. Andrews. In the first two years part of her degree program has her takes classes outside of her major, taking Italian would make sense, she already had decent grasp of it from living in Italy for three months,it would be useful in her art history course and her parents probably pushed it.

While I can't prove she's fluent in Italian, I suspect she speaks it somewhat decently and I also suspect she speaks another language (French mostly likely) somewhat from her years at boarding school.

Will's Cup of Tea | vanityfair.com
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