Brazilian Marriage Rules & Musings


If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
You're dancing as fast as you can but still not answering the basic question.

If these dynastic marriages are made for the good of the country, surely after 100+ years the public must know what good Brazil gets as a result.

Its a pretty basic question: what good has come to Brazil and the Brazilians as a result of these marriages?

We still having an Imperial Family.

Brazil is a Republic, but as long we have an Imperial Family to be followed by the Monarchist, who are getting stronger, a restoration is a possibility.
 
We still having an Imperial Family.

Brazil is a Republic, but as long we have an Imperial Family to be followed by the Monarchist, who are getting stronger, a restoration is a possibility.

Still dancing and not answering.
 
Still dancing and not answering.

You asked how the Imperial Family keeping with the dynastic marriage traditions is good for Brazil.

The answer is that I gave in my last post. The country still has an Imperial Family.

That's the answer, you can not agree, or, as you trying to do, pretend I'm "dancing but not answering'.
 
So the answer is that there has been no benefit to Brazil as a nation or the Brazilian people in general, but the benefit is that the former Imperial Family has continued to exist and these dynastic marriages have allowed them to maintain the pretence of royalty.
 
Brazilian Empire and me are telling you why the Imperial Family has keeping with their traditions.

You don't agree. Okay, that's a right of yours. But the Imperial Family is not change their way of act, nor the Brazilian Monarchist will change their beliefs.

The Brazilian Monarchy, if ever restored, will have no affect on your countries.

I see no reason to be so nasty as you people.
 
So? The Imperial Family has to throw away their traditions because of a coup? I believe the same would go for the Imperial Families of Russia and Germany.

Yup, and I think those guys are pretty pathetic too. (Archduke Imre, for example, reminds me of Kenneth the Page from 30 Rock, only kind of evil looking.)

Change happens. Things shift. Government changes. After awhile, these families really do need to adjust and understand that living for the past just for the sake of tradition can be crippling.

I can't imagine being raised to believe that I was only allowed to marry one of maybe four or five people in the world, and that my own preferences didn't really count for anything and I really can't imagine why anyone would consider that an appropriate thing to adhere to.

It really is like dog or horse breeding.
 
So the answer is that there has been no benefit to Brazil as a nation or the Brazilian people in general, but the benefit is that the former Imperial Family has continued to exist and these dynastic marriages have allowed them to maintain the pretence of royalty.

The benefit to Brazil as a Nation is that we still can have an alternative, because the political cenario here is such a mess. This week the politician are trying to go against the Constitution.

The President's party is involved in biggest ever corruption case in brazilian history.

But the Imperial Family is still there, prepared to serve us, as they did in the past. Read a bit about the history of the Brazilian Monarchy and you'll know how great that time was.
 
I know this about all of them: their families were deposed long ago. Very few people in their respective countries have any desire whatsoever to return to the days when they were in power. They're clinging to hereditary privilege that is no longer recognized by most people, and living your life for that is pretty sad- especially when that entails not marrying the person you choose to love.


(And while I generally refrain from making fun of those folks, I make an exception for Imre, quite simply because he chose to work in ultra right wing politics in my own country, and I find him and his wife totally ridiculous. I wouldn't have brought them up if it weren't for the comparison made between the various ex-royal families.)
 
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I know this about all of them: their families were deposed long ago. Very few people in their respective countries have any desire whatsoever to return to the days when they were in power. They're clinging to hereditary privilege that is no longer recognized by most people, and living your life for that is pretty sad- especially when that entails not marrying the person you choose to love.

Excuse me, but not all people who marry equally are been denied to marry for love. A Prince and a Princess can fall in love with each other.
 
Excuse me, but not all people who marry equally are been denied to marry for love. A Prince and a Princess can fall in love with each other.

It is of course, theoretically possible for a prince and a princess to fall in love with each other. I think it's cool when that happens to people who have no pressure on them to marry that way. But if there are outside pressures on someone that compel them to behave a certain way- if the behavior is coerced- then I don't think that's appropriate or positive.

These folks decide they're going to "marry equally" before they meet someone they're interested in. They eliminate 99.9% of the world's population as potential partners based on the archaic idea that blood is what makes someone worthwhile as a human being.

I'm not sure how it's not obvious why these ideas are 1) gross 2) irrelevant to modern society?
 
But the Imperial Family is still there, prepared to serve us, as they did in the past. Read a bit about the history of the Brazilian Monarchy and you'll know how great that time was.

I actually have done some reading on the subject but maybe if you sent me your rose coloured glasses my viewpoint would change.:flowers:

Frankly, the world only spins forward, never backwards, so you can never reclaim a bygone age.
 
I actually have done some reading on the subject but maybe if you sent me your rose coloured glasses my viewpoint would change.:flowers:

Frankly, the world only spins forward, never backwards, so you can never reclaim a bygone age.

Not a very good research, I suppose, judging from what you wrote about Monarchy in Brazil.
 
It is of course, theoretically possible for a prince and a princess to fall in love with each other. I think it's cool when that happens to people who have no pressure on them to marry that way. But if there are outside pressures on someone that compel them to behave a certain way- if the behavior is coerced- then I don't think that's appropriate or positive.

These folks decide they're going to "marry equally" before they meet someone they're interested in. They eliminate 99.9% of the world's population as potential partners based on the archaic idea that blood is what makes someone worthwhile as a human being.

I'm not sure how it's not obvious why these ideas are 1) gross 2) irrelevant to modern society?

No one in the Brazilian Imperial Family was ever forced to marry.

They can marry who they want. But they'll only keep their succession rights if they marry equally.

You said that the Throne is unnocupied for more than a century, and that restoration is very unlikely. So, why would you worry for people losing their right of inheritance of that Throne?
 
Have you ever heard about a place named Spain?

The difference would be that under Franco Spain was still a kingdom but without a king. Also it had not been more than a century since their had been a king on the throne in Madrid so their were still Spaniards alive who remembered the monarchy.
Are you suggesting what Brazil needs is a Fascist dictator to govern Brazil for about 40 years and then hand pick and train a member of the former dynasty (but not the head of the dynasty) as his successor without any public input or approval?
 
In fact, before the coup who installed the Military Government in Brazil, the military asked Prince Pedro Henrique, the late Head of the Imperial Family, to become the Head of State of Military Dictatorship. His Imperial and Royal Highness, of course, refused to do so.
 
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Maybe these dreamers (Monarchists) could become realists and study political science, run for the government and actually do some good for the country. But of course, that would require living in the 21st century.
 
Maybe these dreamers (Monarchists) could become realists and study political science, run for the government and actually do some good for the country. But of course, that would require living in the 21st century.

The dreamers are trying to make something good for their country: Restore the Monarchy.

At least they aren't on Internet talking about what they don't know (Brazilian political situation and Brazilian history), like you.
 
In fact, before the coup who installed the Military Government in Brazil, the military asked Prince Pedro Henrique, the late Head of the Imperial Family, to become the Head of State of Military Dictatorship. His Imperial and Royal Highness, of course, refused to do so.

Good for him. At least he understood monarchy should not be imposed on a people and would require popular support of the people to continue.
Did he tip anyone off before the coup happened so they could resist the military dictatorship or did he stay quiet?
 
Did he tip anyone off before the coup happened so they could resist the military dictatorship or did he stay quiet?

The entire country was aware of what was happening. But if Prince Pedro Henrique had have tried to do anything against the military, he would have been killed, with his wife and their twelve kids.
 
OK, but did he at least position himself as a leader of the democracy movement, someone to rally around? Was he a Christian X or a Leopold III? Was he a lion or a mouse? Leadership after all requires one to be willing to take risks.
 
Dear Brazilian, it is my belief, and that of many others, that Queen Victoria and her husband (and/or her husband) passed on unhealthy genes to their children and grandchildren. Just because they looked normal (no two-heads, etc.) does not mean that they were normal. Yes, normal enough to have many children and reign, but the Queen and some of her descendants suffered from more than one hereditary illness. The practice in England of heirs marrying commoners is positive because it will improve this gene pool. the gene pool was not bad in all respects, producing some fine people who were healthy, but even into my lifetime there have been some royal sufferers of hereditary disease.

These diseases occurred on the continent as well as in England, but I am not sure if they are in any way in the house of Orleans-Braganca (which I think, from my limited knowledge) is the major descent of the Brazilian claimants. It is perfectly possible for cousins who are free of illness to produce unaffected children. In some ailments, there seems to be an encouragement of severe illness if both parents have the ailment, which can happen if affected parents marry. if as you say the royal Brazilians are healthy and not affected by hereditary illness, then this is a blessing. It would seem that the Luxembourg house is, from any observation I have done by reading online, free of such illness as well. However, there are various lines extending back from the Luxembourg rulers, including that of Queen Victoria of England, which were affected. Maybe these things are now back far enough from the present to have been eliminated.

The Catholic Church traditionally forbade marriages between close cousins, so it surprising that so many were allowed. Likewise, the Church of England forbade cousin marriage in anything closer than the 4th degree (and spelled out what this meant in great detail in a book from England which my ancestors brought over from England, but which was destroyed in a forest fire). I would guess that Albert and Victoria had to have special permission from the Archbishop of Canterbury to marry in a degree closer than that permitted by the Church. I know that the people of where I live now, Hispanics living in Santa Fe New Mexico, had to send members regularly to Rome to receive permission of the Pope to marry within proscribed degrees. I saw a plaque in a church near here showing the marriage of seven generations of people with the same last name, with but one marriage outside the immediate family, and I was told by the guide there that these early residents of Santa Fe had to go every time to Rome for permission.
Incidentally, the Prince and Princess of Astrurias were here at the cathedral for the celebration of the 400th year of the city of Santa Fe de San Francisco d'Assis, which is the full name of the city of Santa Fe.
Most of the original settlers of Santa Fe were "hidden Jews" escaping from the persecution of Mexico, as their forefathers had escaped the Spanish inquisition.
This fact is now taught in the universities of New Mexico and Arizona. My handyman is a descendant of the first families who came 400 years ago, to the first Capitol city of America.
 
Yup, and I think those guys are pretty pathetic too. (Archduke Imre, for example, reminds me of Kenneth the Page from 30 Rock, only kind of evil looking.)

Why is he pathetic? Because he married an American commoner or because he has right-wing political views that he shares with millions and millions of other people?

So? The Imperial Family has to throw away their traditions because of a coup? I believe the same would go for the Imperial Families of Russia and Germany.

Germany is a little different. Prince Georg-Friedrich of Prussia was the last one required to make an equal marriage in order to keep his inheritance; his sons will be free to marry whoever they want to. In 1920, it was agreed that the heir and the next heir would need to make equal marriages - equal meaning a noble person, not a royal. Prince Louis Ferdinand married a Grand Duchess of Russia, his two firstborn sons married commoners and his third and fourth sons married countesses. So the third son, also named Louis Ferdinand became the heir. He tragically died two years after his wedding while his wife was pregnant with their second child. Their first child, Prince Georg Friedrich, became the new heir. If his father would have outlived his own father, Georg Friedrich wouldn't have needed to marry a fellow aristocrat.
 
Why is he pathetic? Because he married an American commoner or because he has right-wing political views that he shares with millions and millions of other people?
Seems that everyone who doesn't act in the same way she acts, or who doesn't put any value on family traditions, is pathetic.
Germany is a little different...
Oh, I wasn't aware of that. Thank you for the information, Shaschana.

Well, it isn't carved in stone that a member of the Brazilian Imperial Family has to renounce his/her succession rights if not marry equally. The decision to give or not Dynastic consent is solely reserved for the Head of the Imperial House. When the time comes, Prince Rafael, as the Head of the Imperial House, willl be able to let his children marry commoners an keep their succession rights. Who knows what will happens.
Yes, normal enough to have many children and reign, but the Queen and some of her descendants suffered from more than one hereditary illness.
Interesting, Mariel. I always thought the only hereditary illness that Queen Victoria's descendants inherited from her was hemophilia, which was transmitted by the Duke of Kent (the Queen's father), not as a result of Victoria and Albert's inbreeding.
OK, but did he at least position himself as a leader of the democracy movement, someone to rally around? Was he a Christian X or a Leopold III? Was he a lion or a mouse? Leadership after all requires one to be willing to take risks.
He was the leader of the Monarchists, who, naturally, opposed the Government. But, by the time, been a Monarchist was illegal (that was a Federal Decree from 1889 to 1988).

The Imperial Family and their followers opposed the Military Government, but not too openly. Otherwise, they would all end up killed.
 
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Brazilian, I am not aware whether Victoria's husband Albert had a genetic disease, as I am not aware very much of his family background. But they were close cousins, and since Victoria probably transmitted Porphyria, it is likely that Albert's family might have had it. The statistics on Porphyria are that 50% of children get if if one parent has it, 75% if both parents have it, but these are just averages--a family of nine, such as Victoria had, might have only one child with porphyria, or might have all nine, but the chances would increase if her husband had the disease. Homozygotous recipients of porph are usually more ill, too, than heterozygotous ones. There have been efforts on both sides of the issue of whether QV had porphyria. Her family of origin was SO ill, most of them, that it seems very likely she was afflicted.
As you may have read on other threads, I have this very rare disease myself. Did I get it from the Stuart friends of my Medieval ancestor Robert de Pollock, or did it come in through a Plantagenet line, or a Tudor line, or what? I don't have any records and my modern ancestors on these lines were just common people without records. As someone said, probably they were too sick to have the energy to keep extensive family records.

Because of many reasons, my porph-line grandmother was estranged from her sister's family, the prime reason being that the sister married a Catholic and my grandma was a rigid Presbyterian. So I didn't know the nine cousins born to my father's aunt Jessie. Later in life, curious as to what happened to them concerning the Porphyria, I went to the funeral of the last one. I met a healthy handsome successful family whom I wish I had known. To my knowledge, only one of them had Porphyria, a man who appealed to my father for help when I was a small child, and who after that drowned because of the neurological impairment. The other eight seem to have been fine. But in my dad's family, he and his sisters all had Porphyria, although it was not diagnosed in their lifetimes, only in mine.

People on this site don't like discussion about Porphyria very well, so I have been mostly silent about it, but I have a long memory and an incredible amount of experience in this "field."
 
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Queen Maria I of Portugal (1734-1816), Prince Rafael's great-great-great-great-great-great-grandmother, and Princess Alexandra's great-great-great-great-great-grandmother, also had porphyria.
 
Whatever porphyria Victoria's descendants may have, it has nothing to do with the fact that she married her first cousin - porphyria is an illness seen in the BRF before Victoria - her grandfather, George III, being one of the more famous (hypothesized) cases of it. Thus, any porphyria genetics in Victoria and her descendants came from Victoria's father (much like the hemophilia likely came from). As she was related to Albert through her mother, inbreeding did not cause any problems on that count.

If George III did have porphyria (it is technically a hypothesis), then it's possible that he got it from his Scottish ancestors, as it's believed that Mary, Queen of Scots and her father, James V, may have also had it.

Inbreeding can cause genetic problems, but typically it's the result of a history of inbreeding, particularly among first cousins. The disabilities in the Habsburgs didn't simply happen because two cousins married, it happened because extensive inbreeding happened - to the point that by the time of Charles II of Spain, every one of his eight great-grandparents was a close descendant of Joanna and Philip I of Castile.
 
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Interesting, Mariel. I always thought the only hereditary illness that Queen Victoria's descendants inherited from her was hemophilia, which was transmitted by the Duke of Kent (the Queen's father), not as a result of Victoria and Albert's inbreeding.

Correct, the Haemophilia was not, nor was it spread by, inbreeding. Then there is Porphyria, which Mariel is quite interested in, but that was something that was common through the centuries and not a result of inbreeding either. Ish covers it quite well. I find it interesting that people always say, Öh the royal families are inbred"and yet the only example they can quote of where this was a problem is that of poor Charles Habsburg, who lived several centuries ago.
 
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I find it interesting that people always say, Öh the royal families are inbred"and yet the only example they can quote of where this was a problem is that of poor Charles Habsburg, who lived several centuries ago.

I'm going to both agree and disagree with you on this one - hear me out.

Royal families are inbred. There is a long history of relatively close cousins marrying other relatively close cousins in just about every European royal family - if not all of them outright. Even look at the current Queen of England - she married her 3rd (I believe) cousin, and they're both descended from Queen Victoria, a woman who married her first cousin. QEII is also descended from the KGV/Mary of Teck union, which was another pair of cousins marrying. Inbreeding happens.

What don't actually see, or don't frequently see, is genetic disasters caused by inbreeding - the reasoning being that there is typically enough diversity and the actual cousins marrying isn't as close or as frequent as people tend to believe. There is even the rather regular introduction of fresh genetics periodically, to keep the gene pool diverse. The problem with the Habsburgs wasn't that there were cousins marrying cousins, it was that there were so many cousins marrying cousins (and I believe even aunts/uncles marrying nephews/nieces). You don't get Charles Habsburg just because two cousins married, you get it because a whole bunch of cousins married.

The problem that houses that require dynastic marriages, such as the Brazilian Imperial Family, is at risk of facing is that bunch of cousins. The Brits have a history of royals marrying cousins, but they also have a history of royals marrying not related royals, and royals marrying members of the aristocracy, and royals marrying commoners (okay, the last one is newer, but even before they started marrying the commoners they were still screwing them). This keeps the gene pool fresher.

To go back to the original discussion that started this all, the best argument that I think has been put forth in favour of dynastic marriages in the Brazilian Imperial family is simply that it's tradition. I'm not convinced that it's necessary to maintain an imperial family - not all former ruling houses maintain dynastic marriages in the 21at century, but the members of them are, in my opinion at least, as royal as the Brazilian family, plus making marriage and inheritance complicated can fracture the family and endanger it in the long run - nor do I believe that it's done for the good of the country. Tradition, however, has a degree of sense to it - once again, here me out here.

The rules regarding a succession are law, and as such can only be changed by changing the law. If a house is no longer in power they no longer have the ability to set the law, and therefore they have no grounds upon which to change the rules governing the line of succession. As such, the rules regarding the succession essentially have to be preserved as they were at the time of the family's disposition.

This is why the Stuarts are able to make a claim to the British throne - because at the time James II was overthrown the laws requiring the heir to the British throne to be a descendant of Sophia of Hanover and not a Catholic didn't exist. It's also why Puren's claim to the Chinese throne is disputable, or why the future of the claim to the Romanian throne can be disputed, or why the Russian throne has two pretenders. The Brazilian Imperial family - and other deposed families - has to maintain dynastic marriages in order to maintain a claim to the throne, because dynastic marriages were the rule when the family sat on the throne.

In contrast, houses currently in power have the ability to change the rules and laws surrounding their succession. QEII can have the succession changed in order to allow elder daughters to inherit before younger sons because she's in power. Other houses can abolish, or at least alter, Salic law because they're still in power. The Brazilians don't have that luxury, however, and are rather stuck with what is an archaic system.
 
The Brits have a history of royals marrying cousins, but they also have a history of royals marrying not related royals, and royals marrying members of the aristocracy, and royals marrying commoners (okay, the last one is newer, but even before they started marrying the commoners they were still screwing them). This keeps the gene pool fresher.


That is the first time that I have seen a reference to something that happened at times over 500 years ago as 'newer'.

John's first wife wasn't a royal - although she was a noble in her own right as Countess of Gloucester - in the late 1100s

Then there is Edward IV in the mid-1400s

Richard III is another who married a commoner in the mid-late 1400s.

Henry VIII married 4 commoners.

If Jane is amongst the list of monarchs you count then she too married a commoner.

Mary Queen of Scots married two subjects in Darnley and Bothwell.

James II also married a commoner in Anne Hyde.

It is more a matter with the British that the Hannoverians were more sold on the royal to royal marriage thing then their precedessors from the 1400 - 1700s.
 
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