The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals > Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh

Join The Royal Forums Today
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #161  
Old 07-28-2008, 07:26 AM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
I thought I had "made up" the omission of Dianaīs name.
I cannot see where anybody said you made it up, but on a forum it is considered reasonable to point out that at a funeral, the dead persons name is not mentioned and at a normal Sunday service, it would also be unusual to mention the name of the deceased, especially as she was no longer a member of that parish.

I am grateful to wbenson for pointing out where you possibly got the information.
Quote:
As to the fact that their motherīs name would upset the boys - that is unthinkable for me.....Snipped ...I lost my own Mother when I was very young and fortunately my family helped me face that fact, not by keeping up like nothing had happened, but making me understand that grief is part of humanīs condition.
Different people react differently, 2 days after their brother died, our other children attended Sunday school as they usually did. Have they been made ill because of the decision, no.
__________________

__________________
  #162  
Old 07-28-2008, 07:52 AM
ysbel's Avatar
Heir Apparent
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 5,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
I thought I had "made up" the omission of Dianaīs name. As to the fact that their motherīs name would upset the boys - that is unthinkable for me. I still remember the gorgeous little crown of roses with the simple envelope saying "Mommy". I lost my own Mother when I was very young and fortunately my family helped me face that fact, not by keeping up like nothing had happened, but making me understand that grief is part of humanīs condition. It doesnīt harm you, rather it protects you from bottling it up and becoming ill. Even the Bible tells of different attitudes for different situations. But then, what would I know?Iīm amazed at how everybody acted so wisely according to many people and I am the only person whose every word is questioned as to "where did you get that from?" Back to the shell, Carminha.
g
I'm sorry to hear about your mother's death. To lose a parent as a child is very difficult.

We don't know what the Royal Family was doing those days in Scotland after Diana's death but its possible that they were trying to help William and Harry face their mother's death in the same way your family tried to help you.

Not everybody responds to grief the same way though. Diana gained strength through the outward display of all her emotions good and bad but some people actually lose strength when they display their emotions like that. William, in particular, does not seem a person who gains strength and comfort from a lot of emotional expressiveness so keeping a normal routine may have given him strength in the sense that it reassured him that life does go on after tragedy strikes and one can take each day one step at a time. Harry appears to have been a boy that would have been better off letting his emotions be expressed.

I'm just guessing; we can't know what was in the family's hearts that day, nor should we. But I'm just offering a plausible explanation.

I also wanted to add that a lot of explanations during that time were quite contradictory. A violent and untimely death of a family member who had been feuding with the rest of the family is bound to bring up strong and conflicting emotions. Yes, it would have been nobler for the family to put their mixed emotions aside and mourn with the people but death in strained circumstances causes strange reactions. And Diana died when estranged from her mother and her brother who had been the closest to her as a child so her family was going through the pain and guilt of the last time they spoke with her was an angry conversation. I don't know if your mother died in strained relations with any of her relatives but it does make the death more difficult to deal with.

If Diana had not had strained relationships with her family and the Royal Family, I imagine that the families would have acted far more like the rest of the world expected them to.
__________________

__________________
"One thing we can do is make the choice to view the world in a healthy way. We can choose to see the world as safe with only moments of danger rather than seeing the world as dangerous with only moments of safety."
-- Deepak Chopra
  #163  
Old 07-28-2008, 08:30 AM
Menarue's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cascais, Portugal
Posts: 2,155
Not long ago I attended a funeral, it was the quietest funeral anyone could imagine, the bereaved widower very quietly greeted the mourners and we made our way almost in complete silence to the cemetery. As we were at the graveside another burial took place nearby, some Cape Verde Islanders with music, singing and extremely loud wailing, different cultures have different customs, neither of these groups were either right or wrong, they just followed their cultural customs. Death is hard to deal with so it is only right that each individual deals with it in his/her own way or in the way he/she has been brought up to deal with it.
__________________
  #164  
Old 07-28-2008, 02:27 PM
Carminha Stalker's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Posts: 1,694
We are not debating a common personīs funeral. I bet that quiet funeral and the loud one, didnīt include a Queen, her sonīs previous wife, her grandsonsī mother.
I know that every culture has its habits, especially living in a country with many cultural trends. Still, when an important person dies, people are moved either by love, hate, rage, relief, you name it.The only thing you can bet on is that it is going to be noticed. We have a saying here: The peopleīs voice is Godīs voice.
__________________
  #165  
Old 07-28-2008, 04:16 PM
Menarue's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cascais, Portugal
Posts: 2,155
You are quite right, no Queen but there was the family of a sometime President of Portugal and quite a few members of the nobility.
__________________
  #166  
Old 07-28-2008, 05:08 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,424
I have another way to argue this.

What if the Queen and the rest of the RF had been out and about in the streets withh the people? Would the press have praised them or criticised them for not showing respect and spending time mourning and helping the boys?

I suspect the latter as the press had to turn people's anger away from the press and the RF would have been attacked whichever way they chose to behave.

Personally I think the Queen put being a grandmother first and she has my complete support for doing so. She rarely puts her family before her duty and the only time I can truly think of her doing so she has been criticised and that awful headline, which I can still visualise 'Where are you, Ma'am?' implying that she should leave her grandsons and run to London to walk around amongst people who, at best, might have touched Diana physically rather than comfort the sons Diana loved more than anything and who were due to be returning to London to be with her for the last week of their school holidays.
__________________
  #167  
Old 07-28-2008, 05:57 PM
Skydragon's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London and Highlands, United Kingdom
Posts: 10,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
We are not debating a common personīs funeral. I bet that quiet funeral and the loud one, didnīt include a Queen, her sonīs previous wife, her grandsonsī mother..... snipped
I seem to have got lost, I thought you were talking about the service at Crathie, in which case we need to bear in mind it is a small parish church, with a small congregation. Added to which, the majority of Scots, IMO, wouldn't dream of bringing attention to themselves by making an enormeous fuss even about their own dead relative.

If we are talking about the service in London, I don't know what else she could have done. I don't believe for one moment that the boys were forced to walk behind the casket, Every member of the RF, from what I recall, looked grim.

The behaviour of many of the crowd, was shameful and it got worse when they acted as if they were at a concert by applauding Spencer for attacking HM and William and Harry's family.
__________________
  #168  
Old 07-28-2008, 06:10 PM
ysbel's Avatar
Heir Apparent
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 5,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
We have a saying here: The peopleīs voice is Godīs voice.
I can't imagine how a loving God would want His Name attached so some of the rantings of the crowds outside of Buckingham Palace.
__________________
"One thing we can do is make the choice to view the world in a healthy way. We can choose to see the world as safe with only moments of danger rather than seeing the world as dangerous with only moments of safety."
-- Deepak Chopra
  #169  
Old 07-28-2008, 08:25 PM
Monika_'s Avatar
Aristocracy
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
I can't imagine how a loving God would want His Name attached so some of the rantings of the crowds outside of Buckingham Palace.
I hardly think the word 'rantings' is appropriate, or necessary. The tragedy of Diana's death was a shock that was felt around the world. I watched as much of the live television coverage as I could that week and one theme was quite consistent...every single newsperson commented on how quiet and still London was, despite the throngs of mourners who arrived in London.
__________________
"If I had said some things about her before 1997, she could have responded to them but, since she is not here, it would be very unfair to make a comment about her." Dr Hasnat Khan
  #170  
Old 07-29-2008, 01:06 AM
wbenson's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: -, United States
Posts: 2,234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
I hardly think the word 'rantings' is appropriate, or necessary.
If I'm remembering some of the appallingly rude cards left on flowers at the palace correctly, 'rantings' is a very charitable word. However, I think certain elements of the media provoked a lot of that.
__________________
  #171  
Old 07-29-2008, 02:11 AM
jcbcode99's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Richmond Area, United States
Posts: 1,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
If I'm remembering some of the appallingly rude cards left on flowers at the palace correctly, 'rantings' is a very charitable word. However, I think certain elements of the media provoked a lot of that.
And here we come back to that one word: media. Their involvement in spinning Diana's death was undeniably transparent. Our church hosted a yard sale recently and I was sifting through some boxes and found several old magazines of when Diana had died. I rememberd looking a couple when she died, but for me after the funeral it was time to let it go and not let some newspaper reap profits from her death. However, finding these I was curious, so I looked through them. There was genuine grief, but even underscored or even blatant, there was a lot of finger pointing at Charles and Camilla even then, during this reverent time of mourning. Skimming over it I was saddened by how the media was allowed to take over and create a circus around Diana in death. I know she courted the media, I've always been a harsh critic of that, but I can't help but be annoyed at how all of this, the days after her death, the media aspect of it, felt to the boys--who had lost their mother. I think we sometimes forget the very real Diana--the mother. The public figure--I'm not a big fan. She had a lot shortcomings, and did a great many childish, willful, selfish things. But, she was their mother and some respect, some dignity on the part of the tabloids, magazines, and newspapers should not have been too much to ask. And, then this inquest that dragged on for ten years. How can William and Harry let their mother rest when that is all they would see splashed across everything when they were out? The media--it never ceases to amaze me.
__________________
Janet

"We make a living by what we do; we make a life by what we give" Winston Churchill
  #172  
Old 07-29-2008, 05:19 AM
MARG's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Christchurch, New Zealand
Posts: 3,962
I think that Britain "went mad" at the death of Diana. I don't think that it started out toxic, but that is what it became, curtesy of the media. It was over the top. Way, way over the top. With the endless TV coverage of "real people" showing "their real grief", unlike the Queen and RF who, if the media were to be believed, "didn't give a d***"!

I recently watched a documentary about the death of Eva Peron, and the reaction was eeirily the same. The grief stricken hysterical crowds, masses of flowers, Newspaper headlines, the lot. The only difference was that at that time the media was not what it became and now is. There were no satellites beaming the pictures of the masses of flowers and grieving people around the world in seconds. So that we could all join in the gratuitous "grief" over "our loss".

Yes Diana's death was a tragedy, as is the death of any parent with young children, but it was not "my" tragedy or "our" tragedy and we had no right to expect the Queen and the Royal Family to "turn it on" for us like a tacky soap opera. The pointing and "judging" of the perceived depth of the grief displayed to the crowds owed more to the Roman Arena than a death in the family. The eulogy given by Earl Spencer was unforgivably hurtful.

HM's priority was her family, especially her two grandsons who had just lost a much loved mother. The notion of parading them in their grief before the crowds of hysterical mourners would never have occurred to her. As it was, it must have been frightening for them to have hands reaching out to touch them from the masses of weeping and wailing strangers.

I cannot imagine how it must have hurt two bereaved children to have their father, grandparents and extended family villified on the cards, accusations of responsibility and culpability splashed across the headlines of almost all of the newspapers and television stations. Where were the children to find their comfort if not in private with those they loved.

Do I believe that the Queen did the right thing? Absolutely!
__________________
MARG
"Words ought to be a little wild, for they are assaults of thoughts on the unthinking." - JM Keynes
  #173  
Old 07-29-2008, 05:53 AM
Menarue's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Cascais, Portugal
Posts: 2,155
Very well said Marg. I believe the majority of us here on the forum think the same.
Hysteria is never agreeable to watch and when it is mass hysteria not only is it ugly but it can become dangerous. In this case it was the mourning family that had to bear the brunt.
__________________
  #174  
Old 07-29-2008, 06:57 AM
ysbel's Avatar
Heir Apparent
TRF Author
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New York, United States
Posts: 5,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monika_ View Post
I hardly think the word 'rantings' is appropriate, or necessary. The tragedy of Diana's death was a shock that was felt around the world. I watched as much of the live television coverage as I could that week and one theme was quite consistent...every single newsperson commented on how quiet and still London was, despite the throngs of mourners who arrived in London.
No there were rantings. A man outside of Buckingham Palace said 'wasn't it sad that Diana had to go to Paris that weekend and get in that car' Someone else screamed 'Well if Charles had loved her, she wouldn't have been in that car' and others vociferously agreed.

I saw one woman grab William's head as he was making the rounds with the Royal Family.

There was nothing noble about the scenes around Buckingham Palace those days and unlike you I don't buy that the reactions were understandable and people just being human because the Royal Family had so 'badly' treated Diana.

You understand and forgive Diana everything while you understand and forgive the Royal Family nothing. To you, everything happened because the Royal Family didn't do what they were supposed to do or they did what they weren't supposed to do and everything that Diana did was just natural reactions to what was done to her and therefore understandable and excusable and well Diana was just being human.

I'm sorry I don't buy it. Your worldview is too one-sided and not 'human' at all.
__________________
"One thing we can do is make the choice to view the world in a healthy way. We can choose to see the world as safe with only moments of danger rather than seeing the world as dangerous with only moments of safety."
-- Deepak Chopra
  #175  
Old 07-29-2008, 07:12 AM
Carminha Stalker's Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
Posts: 1,694
Skydragon: With all due respect, but you seem to have mixed up what I said about the service in Scotland and what Menarue was telling about two funerals she saw.I never even mentioned the service in London.
Well, maybe our saying that : "The peopleīs voice is Godīs voice" is not appropriate for other cultures. After all, Brasil is just an emerging country. As for God being very loving, yes I do believe that wholeheartedly. And only Him knows whom He chooses to hear or not.
Here in Brasil, (third world, rmember) we still remember those days and if there was a lot of sympathy for Diana (and still is), that didnīt mean that anybody felt "hatred" for the RF. Letīs be fair, please. Diana had virtues and failures like any human being.
So did the RF.The only difference is that she is dead and dead people canīt defend themselves anymore.
__________________
  #176  
Old 07-29-2008, 08:25 AM
Jo of Palatine's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 3,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carminha Stalker View Post
Letīs be fair, please. Diana had virtues and failures like any human being.
iI I follow your line of thinking, then a guy like Guy Fawkes should have been spared to pay for his deeds as well?

Diana in her later days, for reasons whatsoever, tried to undermine the monarchy in a way that is covered by the Treason Act - one should not forget about that. Yes, she was only human, yes, she felt she was right in her opinions, but still there is something like laws or at least rules of behaviour out there. Even if this does not mean anything to you, even if you think she was human, so this absolves her - that is not necessarily the view of the monarch whose throne was endangered by a lady who had only married into the RF, who was not of the Blood Royal but who claimed to know much better how to be Royal than all of those born to the Blood Royal.

In the Panorama-interview Diana said that the line of succession doesn't count because of her husband's failures, that only her son, who (she did not say that, but it is implicated, IMHO) despite of his Blood Royal was capable to rule, because he was to be raised by her, the Queen of Hearts and her alone. With that she took the mystique, the sacredness away from the Blood Royal and made the kingship into something anyone could aspire to if he or she was only raised by the right person. Very dangerous thought, this! in addition she gave the cynicism of the media fuel: they have not forgotten that it was them who "discovered" little Shy Di and wrote her into the position of the future queen and mother of a future king. She was their creature and now she ,as an insider, rallied against the monarchy. Okay, for the sake of her own child, but in the mind of the media this was not interesting - it was the fact alone that a figurehead of public connection turned against the monarchy who gave them all the reasons to do the same and feel justified.

If behaving in such a politically destructive manner is only considered a "failure" and "human", so understandable and condonable, then I wonder why society needs so many rules, so many laws to keep it going in a civilised manner. Society needs rules as mankind are dangerous creatures. I have no problem with Diana being unhappy with Charles and wanting out. But I really have a problem with her crucifiying all in order to achieve her goals.

And all the queen did after Diana's death IMHO was to pacify the dangerous creatures called humans that Diana had courted. She succeeded. That's all that counts.
__________________
'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #177  
Old 07-29-2008, 09:40 AM
kimebear's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Albany, United States
Posts: 1,382
The comparison of the actions of Diana, Princess of Wales to the actions of an attempted mass murderer is excessive, to say the least.
__________________
  #178  
Old 07-29-2008, 09:56 AM
Empress's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 3,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by ysbel View Post
No there were rantings. A man outside of Buckingham Palace said 'wasn't it sad that Diana had to go to Paris that weekend and get in that car' Someone else screamed 'Well if Charles had loved her, she wouldn't have been in that car' and others vociferously agreed.

I saw one woman grab William's head as he was making the rounds with the Royal Family.

There was nothing noble about the scenes around Buckingham Palace those days and unlike you I don't buy that the reactions were understandable and people just being human because the Royal Family had so 'badly' treated Diana.

You understand and forgive Diana everything while you understand and forgive the Royal Family nothing. To you, everything happened because the Royal Family didn't do what they were supposed to do or they did what they weren't supposed to do and everything that Diana did was just natural reactions to what was done to her and therefore understandable and excusable and well Diana was just being human.

I'm sorry I don't buy it. Your worldview is too one-sided and not 'human' at all.

Well, I have to say, perhaps if the same people had screamed "If Diana had loved Charles". As I've said before and will say again, no one was blameless in the massive brouhaha.

Having said that though, Diana certainly knew how to play the poor little me card to the fullest extent. The more I learn about this whole mess the more that Diana, with her inteview, is beginning to look like Tricia Walsh who played out her divorce on you tube:



For the sake of her children (if she loved them as much as she claimed, which I hope she did as a mother) she should have gotten divorced quietly and been done with it. two wrongs do not make a right, and even if Charles infidelity was plastered from here to kingdom come, what benefit was there and what did she gain by doing that interview and letting her own infidelities come to light. It hurt the children and that's all it did, apart from making her look like a martyr to some people, which she most certainly was not.
__________________
  #179  
Old 07-29-2008, 11:25 AM
Jo of Palatine's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Munich, Germany
Posts: 3,323
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimebear View Post
The comparison of the actions of Diana, Princess of Wales to the actions of an attempted mass murderer is excessive, to say the least.
I chose him because I'm fascinated by the fact that Fawkes was ranked 30th in the 2002 list of the 100 Greatest Britons, sponsored by the BBC and voted for by the public....
__________________
'To dare is to lose one step for but a moment, not to dare is to lose oneself forever' - Crown Prince Frederick of Denmark in a letter to Miss Mary Donaldson as stated by them on their official engagement interview.
  #180  
Old 07-29-2008, 12:13 PM
qui mal y pense's Avatar
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: spring valley, United States
Posts: 259
You forget that despite her popularity, Diana was no longer a member of the RF and had done much to undermine them (perhaps some of it justified). Would you ask the same question if it had been Sara Ferguson who had died? or Mark Philips? The Queen usually never attends funerals, and the questions is a bit silly. The Queen did not fathom that it would be appropriate for her to go out to the crowds.
As for her care of her grandchildren, the Queen was not close to Charles, but she is quite close to her other children and to princess Margaret's children as well. So I believe strongly that she had and has their best interests at heart.
Oddly, I don't remember the Spencers going out to walk among the crowds.
__________________

__________________
Closed Thread

Tags
balmoral, buckingham palace, diana princess of wales, diana's death and funeral, elizabeth ii, queen elizabeth ii, tabloid press, tony blair


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Photos Of King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie earlier days... Julia King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie 241 03-09-2014 08:13 PM
Lady Jane Grey, Queen for 9 days (1537-1554) ysbel British Royal History 77 04-16-2011 11:25 AM
Run-up to the inquest into Diana's death wymanda Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 1117 10-03-2007 11:18 AM
New books marking the tenth anniversary of Diana's death Hendrik-Jan77 Royal Library 82 10-03-2007 11:12 AM




Additional Links
Popular Tags
birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince felipe crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events dutch royal history fashion grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri hohenzollern infanta elena infanta sofia jordan kate middleton king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg ottoman picture of the month pieter van vollenhoven pom president hollande prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess princess aimee princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess claire princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit sweden wedding william



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:24 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]