Succession to the Romanian Throne, Part 1

[Gaudete]

The decision of the republican authorities concerning an ngo will never be accepted by the royalists and will certainly have no consequence for the Succession of the dynastic rights.

This is my view too. The Royal House and the present Romanian government might be happy with the changes but that doesn’t mean ordinary members of the public who are supporters of a restoration will just be quiet and toe the line.

 

[Cory]

The King's Family does not neccesarily mean exactly the same thing as the Royal House. All the 5 daughters of the late King, his 2 grandsons and three grandaughters, the great-grandson and the two great-grandaughters belong to the King's Family. It is very dabatable who belongs really to the Royal House.

 

[Gaudete]

Of course. I should have been more precise. The Custodian of the Crown. As I said in an earlier post, this doesn’t mean that her relatives share her enthusiasm or acceptance of the recent changes. Though I get the impression (and always have) that it’s more what Radu finds acceptable than what Margareta would prefer.

 

[Cory]

The title "Custodian of the Crown" has never existed in the Royal Constitutions of Romania. The 5 Princesses and their descendants have no dynastic rights according to the same Constitutions.

 

[Gaudete]

The question is how much the changes King Michael issued are going to be recognised by any organisation or institution other than the King’s children and grandchildren. If any. I presume that the government/parliament have accepted them because of the way they have treated Margareta since the death of her father. Her name plate in parliament even read “Her Majesty”. I imagine this will become clearer in years to come but I still think the CotC title is temporary and that she’ll style herself as Queen after the funeral of King Michael.

Why use the style of Her Majesty and not Queen if the “laws” the King published allow her to do both?

 

[Cory]

The republican authorities have no right to decide on matters that regards the Succession to the Throne. If they do the royalists will certainly ignore their decisions. If the Monarchy is restored in the future the Line of Succession proposed in 2007 could have chances only because of the popularity of Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills.
The Hohenzollerns on the other hand are at the moment very quiet about their rights of Succession to the Romanian Throne.

 

[Gaudete]

I see what you’re saying but surely if the goal is to see a restoration (from either Margareta’s point of view or the point of view of monarchist organisations), they need the co-operation of the Republican authorities? At the very least they would need some kind of parliamentary support? Enough to introduce a referendum bill as a bare minimum. It’s all very well being ultra strict with historic documents but what the Romanian Parliament has offered is clearly all they’re going to get for now. Is it not a case of cutting off their nose to spite their faces?

And if the current government/parliament recognises Margareta as Michael’s heir, as they clearly do, why would they suddenly consider someone else? The whole thing sounds very messy legally and very confusing. Yet another reason why I can’t ever see a restoration on the cards. If nobody knows who is, who isn’t, who does, who doesn’t, who agrees and who disagrees....why bring them back from exile at all other than to avoid a court case at the ECHR?

 

[Cory]

The republican authorities want to give a status to a sort of ngo responsible in front of them and leaded by a descendant of the King. The Montenegro "model" is followed. Those from the King's Family that agree with this compromise formula are aware the republican authorities want to avoid restoration of Monarchy but want a legal and financial basis for their activities. Hardly a serious reason for the royalists to suppose such a compromise or support a Line wanted by the republican authorities.

It is obvious that from now one the debate about Succession will be very serious.

 

[Gaudete]

I agree and see your point but....what’s the alternative? They stay in Switzerland and don’t accept any good will or advantages at all but at least they’re keeping a few (not all) monarchist groups happy who would be even less likely to get what they want?

 

[Cory]

The Succession is not a game and has to respect the Constitution of 1923. Only when Monarchy is restored the rules of Succession can be changed by the Parliament. Certainly this is the theory but in practice we see how complicated is everything now.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Listen, for me the Fürst and the Erbprinz von Hohenzollern are the rightful heirs. With the death of King Michael, Prince Karl Friedrich is his successor.

But my eyes do not lie. I see no Prince Karl Friedrich adressing the nation, I see no Prince Karl Friedrich in the Romanian Parliament. So we may say that the State of Romania has legitimized Princess Margareta, not only by all the formal proceedings but also when the proposed Bill is approved.

Then we can play the drum of "Karl Friedrich and Alexander should be there, not Margareta and Radu" but it is what it is. The public actions by Parliament have given the pretenders Margareta & Radu an advantage other pretenders miss.

Imagine that the President, the Government and the Parliament of Italy would act like this towards Aimone di Savoia-Aosta. We can say: "Ho, a moment: not Aimone but Emanuele Filiberto di Savoia is the heir!" but public acts and official symbolism can upset all and everything.

 

[Gaudete]

Succession to the Romanian Throne

The Succession is not a game and has to respect the Constitution of 1923. Only when Monarchy is restored the rules of Succession can be changed by the Parliament. Certainly this is the theory but in practice we see how complicated is everything now.

With respect, even the most conservative and traditional of reigning houses are adapting and moving on and would have difficulty justifying sticking to a 90 year old document. If anyone seriously wants a restoration along the lines of a 1923 law then they’ll remain disappointed and monarchist groups who support such an idea might as well find something better to do with their time.

 

[Cory]

There is no doubt the republican authorities do not support the Hohenzollerns at all. How could they support the rightful Heirs to the Throne when the republican establishment does not want the Monarchy?
Many royalists seem to support Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills forgetting he would be only the third in the Line proposed in 2007. How can they support directly him and not his mother and aunt?

 

[Gaudete]

There is no doubt the republican authorities do not support the Hohenzollerns at all. How could they support the rightful Heirs to the Throne when the republican establishment does not want the Monarchy?
Many royalists seem to support Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills forgetting he would be only the third in the Line proposed in 2007. How can they support directly him and not his mother and aunt?

As I see it, former reigning dynasties have two choices in a modern world where republics are now well established. They can try to play a supportive role doing their best to be of use and expect a few benefits in return. It may be the return of certain residences, it may be an allowance of some kind, it may be a certain level of national recognition.

Or they can remain obstinate and self obsessed. They can refuse to accept anything less than what they had 50 or 60 years ago and scratch out a living handing out pantomime orders and playing dress up. They’ll have their principles of course but very little else.

If the Romanian authorities have allowed the Royal House (as they define it) a position, an allowance, a residence or two and a national role to play then I would say they should count their blessings. I’m sure Grand Duchess Maria or Crown Prince Alexander would kill for such an opportunity.

If a 1923 rule is more important to those who say they want it the old way or no way at all, good luck to them. It’ll be no way at all and all branches of the Romanian dynasty of old can go back to being chicken farmers dependant on handouts from sentimental exiles.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

With respect, even the most conservative and traditional of reigning houses are adapting and moving on and would have difficulty justifying sticking to a 90 year old document. If anyone seriously wants a restoration along the lines of a 1923 law then they’ll remain disappointed and monarchist groups who support such an idea might as well find something better to do with their time.

Then it is up to the Parliament to change the succession, like they did in Spain. But imagine that Don Juan Carlos is still in exile and he disapproves Don Felipe and Letizia and therefore drafts a document stating that not Don Felipe but Doña Elena is the heir, after all, she is the firstborn and we have to move on? Just because of his own opinion, like Michael also -in a whim- adds or removes persons.

All nice and well, but I would say: leave that to Parliament. After all Don Juan Carlos' father could also have appointed one of Don Juan Carlos' sisters as heir. It is all nice and well, all that private hobbyism, but I prefer a moratorium of an existing situation unless a restoration becomes a possibility and then it is up to Parliament to decide. That would be my route.

 

[Cory]

In his family document of 2007 the King himself recognized the right of the Parliament to decide on Succession only when Monarchy is restored.

 

[Somebody]

Several people might want the Hohenzollerns to step in but it is quite clear that they have no interest nor intention to do so, so I don't see a reason why the Romanian parliament in the case of a restoration would ask someone who clearly has no interest at all in Romania to be their king instead of following the suggestion made by their last well-respected king - one that his family has acted upon for years.

 

[Cory]

Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills is indeed very popular so he could become King if the Parliament of the Kingdom receives a formal renunciation of the Princes of Hohenzollern.

 

[Gaudete]

Is there any kind of polling information on his popularity that would suggest this is likely or desirable?

 

[Cory]

He is certainly very popular in the royalists circles but I did not see any recent poll regarding his popularity.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills is indeed very popular so he could become King if the Parliament of the Kingdom receives a formal renunciation of the Princes of Hohenzollern.

There is no any desire for a restoration of the monarchy, why would Parliament do anything at all? There is no kingdom, there is no throne, there is no succession in the republican State of Romania.

Even when the Fürst von Hohenzollern renounces, his son, or his brother, or his nephews, or his cousins have not renounced. Such an act would be meaningless. Charles can renounce. William can renounce. Can underaged George renounce? And underaged Charlotte? And then comes Harry, etc. Such a renunciation by Karl Friedrich does not mean all Hohenzollerns have given up.

 

[Cory]

No Hohenzollern formally renounced. Obviously we do not speak only about the Furst and his son. The Parliament would decide on such an issue only if the Monarchy is restored.We speak about dynastic rights not about something else.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

The problem is that the head of the dynasty (King Michael) changed the rules. The dynasty, that are his daughters minus one, his grandchildren minus three. Opinions differ if King Michael could do all this to his own will and pleasure, but okay, so to see the constitutional heirs are out and no more relevant.

 

[Cory]

The King knew very well he could not change the rules by Himself and he asked in the 2007 family document the Parliament to solve the issue in case of restoration. At the moment different interpretations are available but the only one that is popular and known to the Romanians seem to be Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills.

 

[Gaudete]

Succession to the Romanian Throne

The problem is, that’s anecdotal. We have no evidence to suggest that Nicholas is universally popular in sufficient numbers with monarchist movements. I can’t even find figures to show public support for the new arrangements set for the Royal House by Parliament, let alone approval ratings for Nicholas. This all seems very bizarre. Margareta is clearly being offered semi-official status with a set role. If that isn’t good enough, I’ve no idea why anyone is wasting their time. A 1920s monarchy in Romania in 2017? There’s more chance of Elvis being elected Pope.

 

[Cory]

There are no polls about the popularity of Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills and no polls about the controversial bill either

 

[Gaudete]

There are no polls about the popularity of Nicholas de Roumanie Medforth Mills and no polls about the controversial bill either

But you’re saying that he’s very popular and seen as a unifying force for monarchists? You must be basing that on something?

 

[Cory]

Interviews with royalists leaders, comments of the people on different blogs,Facebook in the last period.

 

[Gaudete]

With respect, that isn’t representative. Twitter predicted a Clinton win and a Brexit loss. And look what happened. Even polls aren’t all that reliable. I just can’t see that there’s any real evidence to support the idea that Romanians are demanding Nicholas take over on some redundant legal document from 90 years ago which most have probably never heard of.

 

[Cory]

The majority of Romanians are not officially royalists so it's hard to say. Everybody remembers the 1992 Easter visit and how the King was presenting his grandson Nicholas to the people.