Ordinals In The Titles Of Monarchs

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

I noticed King Juan Carlos has a "I" even though he's the first "Juan Carlos" King of Spain.

I read that before Queen Elizabeth II, Elizabeth I was just known as Elizabeth.

 

[User0501]

I noticed King Juan Carlos has a "I" even though he's the first "Juan Carlos" King of Spain.

I read that before Queen Elizabeth II, Elizabeth I was just known as Elizabeth.

The current British monarch is HM Queen Elizabeth II and the previous queen is known as HM Queen Elizabeth (Elizabeth II's mother) whom later is known as HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother upon the death of HM King George VI on 6th February 1952.In order to differentiate both Elizabeth,the current queen is known as HM Queen Elizabeth II upon her ascension to the British throne in 1952.So HM Queen Elizabeth II is the second Elizabeth in the House of Windsor although I am aware that there were Elizabeth I from the House of Tudors.Although the late Queen Mother did not use 'I' in her official name,she is widely known as the first Elizabeth from the House of Windsor and not the first Elizabeth in the English dynasty or perhaps the first in the dynasty of the United Kingdom.The usage of 'I','II' and so on in the English Royal Family is based on protocol and is not used based on personal preference.As a conclusion,I would say that the usage of 'I' by the King of Spain is based on personal preference rather protocol.

 

[Stefan]

I noticed King Juan Carlos has a "I" even though he's the first "Juan Carlos" King of Spain.

I read that before Queen Elizabeth II, Elizabeth I was just known as Elizabeth.

It depend on the Country. In the UK it is only used when there are 2 Monarchs with the same name like in the Case of Elizabeth. The same can be said for the Netherlands where nether Wilhelmina, Juliana or Beatrix has a regnal number. But in Belgium King Baudouin is known as Baudouin I. the same for his grandfather King Albert I. who had the regnal number already before the accession of albert II. Also in Spain it is Juan Caros I. and not Juan carlos.

 

[User0501]

It depend on the Country. In the UK it is only used when there are 2 Monarchs with the same name like in the Case of Elizabeth. The same can be said for the Netherlands where nether Wilhelmina, Juliana or Beatrix has a regnal number. But in Belgium King Baudouin is known as Baudouin I. the same for his grandfather King Albert I. who had the regnal number already before the accession of albert II. Also in Spain it is Juan Caros I. and not Juan carlos.

Yes I agree with you that the usage of the regnal number depends on the country as only the British Royal Family do not do things as they wish.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

The current British monarch is HM Queen Elizabeth II and the previous queen is known as HM Queen Elizabeth (Elizabeth II's mother) whom later is known as HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother upon the death of HM King George VI on 6th February 1952.In order to differentiate both Elizabeth,the current queen is known as HM Queen Elizabeth II upon her ascension to the British throne in 1952.So HM Queen Elizabeth II is the second Elizabeth in the House of Windsor although I am aware that there were Elizabeth I from the House of Tudors.Although the late Queen Mother did not use 'I' in her official name,she is widely known as the first Elizabeth from the House of Windsor and not the first Elizabeth in the English dynasty or perhaps the first in the dynasty of the United Kingdom.The usage of 'I','II' and so on in the English Royal Family is based on protocol and is not used based on personal preference.As a conclusion,I would say that the usage of 'I' by the King of Spain is based on personal preference rather protocol.

I wasn't talking about the Queen Mother, whom I refer to as Ms. Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon to avoid confusion. I was referring to Elizabeth from the Tudor Dynasty. Elizabeth I.

 

[Oppie]

Numbering is not use for Queen Consort. Queen Elizabeth II is the II because of Queen Elizabeth I not because of her mother.

Queen Mary was a consort and was refered to as Queen Mary even though there had been two Queen Mary (Queen Mary I and Queen Mary II)

Usually numbers aren't used until there is a second, third ect... Queen Victoria will be Queen Victoria until a hypothetical situation in which Prince William's daughter becomes Queen Victoria II, then Queen Victoria becomes Queen Victoria I.

From the official site Belgium you can see Baudouin is refered without number http://www.monarchie.be/en/monarchy/history/index.html

From the official site of Spain you can see Juan Carlos is also refered without number http://www.casareal.es/ingles/sm_rey/index.html

so I am not sure who you are refering to when you say that these two men have numbers added. Maybe you can post a link.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

OMG, I already said I wasn't referring to Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon(Queen Mother) I said I was referring to Elizabeth Tudor(Elizabeth II).

I asked if MONARCHS (males in particular) if they always ordinals. I know consorts(even male ones) do not have ordinals.

 

[Oppie]

OMG, I already said I wasn't referring to Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon(Queen Mother) I said I was referring to Elizabeth Tudor(Elizabeth II).

I asked if MONARCHS (males in particular) if they always ordinals. I know consorts(even male ones) do not have ordinals.

Um sorry (?) but srivishnu made a point I was talking about that, Yes I know you are talking about male monarchs but another point was brought up in this thread. Captializing makes it seem like you are yelling.

I tried to answer your second part. On both the official Belgium and Spanish site Baudouin and Juan Carlos do not have ordinals. So IMO the answer is no. Unless someone can find another official document that states that Beaudouin, Juan Carlos or another King uses the I.

 

[Avalon]

OMG, I already said I wasn't referring to Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon(Queen Mother) I said I was referring to Elizabeth Tudor(Elizabeth II).

I asked if MONARCHS (males in particular) if they always ordinals. I know consorts(even male ones) do not have ordinals.

Ordinals are used for the 2nd, 3rd... Monarchs with the same name. The first Monarchs do not use them.
Queen Elizabeth (Tudor) was simply known as Queen Elizabeth (Queen Bess). The ordinals, stricktly speaking, are there to help distinguish the Monarchs. If there was no Monarch with the same name before, it would be really hard to mix him up (who can you mix say Queen Elizabeth I with, if there were no Queen Elizabeths before her).
The ordinals are added after the death, to distinguish form possible future Monarchs with the same name.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

But it's different for every country right?

Because King Juan Carlos is Juan Carlos I. So if Leonor became Queen would she be Leonor or Leonor I?

 

[Oppie]

The official Spanish site does not refer to him as Juan Carlos I, where are you getting that information from ?

Link http://www.casareal.es/ingles/sm_rey/index.html

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Ummm, everywhere else on the net.

In the Spanish Consitution he is addressed as such.

 

[Toledo]

King Juan Carlos I is also our first King with two names. He could have chosen one or the other and continue the previous numerals of Kings named Juan or Kings named Carlos, but he kept his name and started a new tradition.
But Felipe will be King Felipe and the number.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

No, I'm asking if it's a guy thing.

When Queen Elizabeth I ruled England in the 1500s, she was just known as Queen Elizabeth.

But King Juan Carlos is King Juan Carlos I. So I'm wondering if males have ordinals regardless if they're the first ones to use the regnal name or not.

 

[Toledo]

No, I'm asking if it's a guy thing.

When Queen Elizabeth I ruled England in the 1500s, she was just known as Queen Elizabeth.

But King Juan Carlos is King Juan Carlos I. So I'm wondering if males have ordinals regardless if they're the first ones to use the regnal name or not.

Oh, I see now. More royal men use a number while for our royal ladies is just implied (like common knowledge?) but not constantly mentioned. Maybe is a guy thing after all!

 

[User0501]

I wasn't talking about the Queen Mother, whom I refer to as Ms. Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon to avoid confusion. I was referring to Elizabeth from the Tudor Dynasty. Elizabeth I.

According to the British Royal Family's web site,Elizabeth from the House of Tudors is known as Elizabeth I.

 

[User0501]

Numbering is not use for Queen Consort. Queen Elizabeth II is the II because of Queen Elizabeth I not because of her mother.

Queen Mary was a consort and was refered to as Queen Mary even though there had been two Queen Mary (Queen Mary I and Queen Mary II)

Usually numbers aren't used until there is a second, third ect... Queen Victoria will be Queen Victoria until a hypothetical situation in which Prince William's daughter becomes Queen Victoria II, then Queen Victoria becomes Queen Victoria I.

From the official site Belgium you can see Baudouin is refered without number http://www.monarchie.be/en/monarchy/history/index.html

From the official site of Spain you can see Juan Carlos is also refered without number http://www.casareal.es/ingles/sm_rey/index.html

so I am not sure who you are refering to when you say that these two men have numbers added. Maybe you can post a link.

The British Royal Family are different from the other European Royal Families.Never compare the British Royal Family with other European Royal Houses.

 

[User0501]

OMG, I already said I wasn't referring to Elizabeth Bowles-Lyon(Queen Mother) I said I was referring to Elizabeth Tudor(Elizabeth II).

I asked if MONARCHS (males in particular) if they always ordinals. I know consorts(even male ones) do not have ordinals.

Elizabeth from the House of Tudor is known as Elizabeth I not Elizabeth II.Male monarchs do have the regnal number if they choose to use the name of their predecessor as their official name such as George V and George VI.Even HRH Prince Charles of Wales has indicated that he plans to use George VII as his official name once he ascends the British throne upon the death of HM Queen Elizabeth II.But male consorts usually do not use the regnal number in their official name as they are not the monarch but female consorts is allowed to use the regnal number if they want to as they are the consort of the Head of State.

 

[Warren]

.. female consorts is allowed to use the regnal number if they want to as they are the consort of the Head of State.

Is there an example of a British Queen Consort using a regnal number? Or non-British Queen Consorts?

 

[Frothy]

No. A regnal number implies ruling authority which consorts do not have.

Both male and female monarchs do not use a regnal number if they are the first. We in Britain speak of "King John" and "Queen Anne" Not John I and Anne I. Not until they have successors with the same name would they be designated as the first.

It is absolutely wrong to say Elizabeth is called 'II' because she is second in the House of Windsor, houses do not matter and consorts do not matter when it comes to regnal numbers.

There has only been one King Consort of England and that was Phillip II of Spain, King Consort to Mary I.

 

[Frothy]

Warren... if you want to go back ::cue spooky music:: WAAAAAY back, then in ancient Egypt the Romanesque queens of the Pharoah had numbers; Cleopatra of 'Anthony and Cleopatra' fame was Cleopatra VII, it was the tradition that Pharaoh, usually called Ptolomey, would take a bride Cleopatra and both would take numerals. Cleopatra VII held the power of a dowager through her own cunning and because her husband the Pharaoh Ptolomey was dead. Other than that I don't know.

Edited to add: Srivishnu said:

"But male consorts usually do not use the regnal number in their official name as they are not the monarch but female consorts is allowed to use the regnal number if they want to as they are the consort of the Head of State."

I don't know who told you this but they misled you. Queen consorts in Britain never, and I mean never, use a regnal number; it is reserved for the Head of State, the monarch. William III and Mary II were techincal co-regnants.

 

[Toledo]

Is there an example of a British Queen Consort using a regnal number? Or non-British Queen Consorts?

I'm posting this quick by memory, so correct me if I'm wrong but I think the wife of William of Orange had one because they were both crowned as equals during the restoration, right? She was the heir to her father and her husband William of Orange was the one who had the military man power to put her on the throne, A kind of similar situation happened in Spain when Queen Isabel of Castille married King Fernando of Aragon and both combined their possesions into one country. They had numerals in history but I don't recall her having it in her lifetime since she was the first Isabel to use that name as Queen in her own right. The second one, in the 19th century, did use the numeral.

 

[Warren]

I'm posting this quick by memory, so correct me if I'm wrong but I think the wife of William of Orange had one because they were both crowned as equals during the restoration, right? She was the heir to her father and her husband William of Orange was the one who had the military man power to put her on the throne, A kind of similar situation happened in Spain when Queen Isabel of Castille married King Fernando of Aragon and both combined their possesions into one country. They had numerals in history but I don't recall her having it in her lifetime since she was the first Isabel to use that name as Queen in her own right. The second one, in the 19th century, did use the numeral.

Both William & Mary and Ferdinand & Isabel were joint monarchs; I'm trusting the member who claimed "female consorts [are] allowed to use the regnal number if they want to" will provide an example of one doing so (or provide the source for this statement).

 

[Furienna]

I don't think the consorts ever have numbers. Only monarchs have numbers. Instead, consorts are identified by their birth kingdom or their last name. This is the list of the monarchs, consorts and hei appearents in Sweden since the mid-1700s. Our current king's grandmother is brought into this list because she was supposed to become a queen and because she is an ancestor to our current royal family. For the same reason, I also put our current king's parents, who never became king and queen, even though that was the plan, in this list, in paranthesis. HG = Holstein-Gottorp dynasty, B = Bernadotte dynasty.

1. Adolf Frederic & Louise Ulrique of Prussia (HG)
2. Gustav III & Sophie Madeleine of Denmark. (HG)
3. Gustav IV Adolf & Fredrique of Baden. (HG)
4. Charles XIII & Charlotte of Oldenburg. (HG)
5. Charles XIV John & Desirée Clary. (B)
6. Oscar I & Josephine of Leuchtenberg. (B)
7. Charles XV & Louise of the Netherlands. (B)
8. Oscar II & Sophie of Nassau. (B)
9. Gustav V & Victoria of Baden. (B)
10. Gustav VI Adolf & Margareth of Connaught + Louise Mountbatten (Gustav Adolf was married twice. Margareth died, and three after her death, he got married to Louise. Margareth had children, but never became queen. Louise became queen, but never had children.) (B)
11. (Gustav Adolf Edmund & Sibylla of Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha. (B) )
12. Carl XVI Gustaf & Silvia Sommerlath. (B)

In the same way, this would be a list of the Brittish monarchs, consorts and heir appearants for the same time period. I put Frederic Louis and Augusta of Sachsen-Gotha into paranthesis, because they were supposed to become king and queen, and they are ancestors to the current royal family. Wallis Simpson is put into paranthesis as well, since she never was a queen. H = Hannover dynasty, W = Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha dynasty a k a Windsor dynasty.

1. George I & Sophie Dorothy of Celle. (H)
2. George II & Caroline of Brandenburg-Ansbach. (H)
3. (Frederic Louis & Augusta of Sachsen-Gotha. (H) )
4. George III & Charlotte of Mecklenburg-Strelitz. (H)
5. George VI & Caroline of Braunschweig. (H)
6. William IV & Adelaide of Saxe-Meiningen. (H)
7. Victoria (I) & Albert of Sachsen-Coburg and Gotha. (H)
8. Edward VII & Alexandra of Denmark. (W)
9. George V & Mary of Teck. (W)
10. Edward VIII (& Wallis Simpson). (W)
11. George VI & Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon. (W)
12. Elizabeth II & Philip Mountbatten. (W)

I believe our Swedish king Oscar I was always known as Oscar I after he had become our king, even before his son was known as King Oscar II. But I'm not sure.

 

[Toledo]

Is very rare to have the situation that would make two married monarchs using ordinals because traditionally the throne is inherited by one individual, not two.

Besides William and Mary of England and Isabel and Fernando of Spain, the only other historical curiosity that comes to mind is the case of Marie Therese of Austria and her husband, Francis, Duke of Lorraine. She is commonly known as Empress Marie Therese and is the only Hapsburg female that inherited the assorted family possesions. So she could be somewhat called Marie Therese I for her own possesions. But there was no Austrian Empire per se for her to be numbered Empress Maria Therese I. She, daugther of an Emperor, assumed the imperial rank when her husband Francis Stephen of Lorraine became Francis I, Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.
But I have not read anything on her being Marie Therese I, Holy Roman Empress. Even when she, like Isabel of Castille, was the stronger part in the marriage.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Elizabeth from the House of Tudor is known as Elizabeth I not Elizabeth II.Male monarchs do have the regnal number if they choose to use the name of their predecessor as their official name such as George V and George VI.Even HRH Prince Charles of Wales has indicated that he plans to use George VII as his official name once he ascends the British throne upon the death of HM Queen Elizabeth II.But male consorts usually do not use the regnal number in their official name as they are not the monarch but female consorts is allowed to use the regnal number if they want to as they are the consort of the Head of State.

OMG what are you talking about?! I SAID ELIZABETH I IS ELIZABETH TUDOR. I said no such thing that Elizabeth Tudor was Elizabeth II. Re-read my posts please.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Seriously though, many of you did not read my posts properly.

I DID NOT SAY ELIZABETH TUDOR WAS ELIZABETH II.

NOR DID I SAY ELIZABETH BOWLES-LYON, THE QUEEN MOTHER WAS ELIZABETH I.

I have no idea where you people got those. Jesus Christ...

 

[Toledo]

A simple misunderstanment, so many Elizabeths in here are becoming confused with one another.
Good that our Spanish Elizabeths use Spain's version of the name: Isabel.

 

[CrownPrinceLorenzo]

Even I was starting to get confused o_0

Anyway since King Juan Carlos is addressed as Juan Carlos I, with an ordinal, would Leonor be addressed Queen Leonor I (if she becomes Queen Regnant that is).

 

[Toledo]

my friend, I think the polite answer to that is that you just answered your own question.

And now I got to get going, everyone have a great weekend...