Non-British Styles and Titles

[msfroyste]

it was about henri wanting to marry mt. the head of the house of bourbon-parma didn't approve, as henri's grandfather, prince felix, was a "minor" prince from the house, thus his decendants needed approval from the head of the house of bourbon-parma to marry as well, and they have/had rules for equal marriages then. he didn't approve, and in a move to "get even" gd jean dropped the bourbon-parma from their names/titles, a perverbal slap-in-the-face to his cousin. that's what is publically known;who knows, perhaps there were some other things that fed into his reasoning.

 

[florawindsor]

i have a question......why we call Princess Alexandra "princess". why not Princess Joachim?

 

[norwegianne]

Because in recent years the monarchs in Scandinavia, at least, have given the girls who married princes, their own title. At least if they were directly in line to the throne. Mette-Marit was made HRH the Crown Princess by King Harald at the wedding, and I think a similar case was made for Mary and Alexandra. I'm not familiar with the Netherlands, but I think Maxima also has it like that, and maybe her sisters-in-law? Correct me if I'm wrong.


I say recent years, because I know that in Denmark there was an American (Eleanor Green) who married Prince Viggo, and she was always known as Princess Viggo. I do, however, think it has something to do with how close the royal in questions are to the throne.

Of course, Denmark, and Sweden, has also had a tradition that when the princes chooses a bride among the people of the country, or without the King's approval, they are "demoted" to counts. (In Denmark they become Count of Rosenborg, and in Sweden Count Bernadotte, unless I'm getting it all wrong.) Fairly unlikely that that tradition continues to exist, although, it is a nice way to keep the royal family limited.

 

[Warren]

Luxembourg dumps B-P

it was about Henri wanting to marry Maria Theresa; the Head of the House of Bourbon-Parma didn't approv and in a move to "get even" Grand Duke Jean dropped the Bourbon-Parma from their names/titles

There may be an element of truth to this, but Henri married Maria Teresa in 1981, and the Bourbon-Parma titles were dropped five years later in 1986; so perhaps it was a very delayed backhander.

The Head of the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma was (and is) Prince Carlos Hugo, who was previously married to Princess Irene of The Netherlands. Coincidentally they were divorced the same year as Henri and MT married.

Carlos Hugo has four children. The best known is Princess Marguerita, who is currently divorcing her husband of 4 years Edwin de Roy van Zuydewijn, after they caused acute embarassment to Queen Beatrix with some outrageous allegations.

Perhaps Jean, Henri and Maria Teresa have had the last laugh.
.

 

[Warren]

Sweden: close to extinction

Denmark, and Sweden, has also had a tradition that when the princes chooses a bride among the people of the country, or without the King's approval, they are "demoted" to counts. (In Denmark they become Count of Rosenborg, and in Sweden Count Bernadotte.) Fairly unlikely that that tradition continues to exist, although, it is a nice way to keep the royal family limited.

The Swedish Royal House came close to a "demoting" itself out of existence in the male line with its strict adherence to this tradition.

Of the sons of King Oscar II, Prince Oscar had to renounce his rights of succession on his marriage; Prince Carl's only son renounced; Prince Eugen was unmarried and only Prince Gustaf was left in line.

Prince Gustaf became King and had three sons: Gustaf Adolf, who became King; Prince Wilhelm who had one son, who renounced, and Prince Erik who was mentally disabled.

King Gustaf VI Adolf had 4 sons: Prince Sigvard, who renounced; Prince Carl Johan who renounced; Prince Bertil and Prince Gustaf Adolf, who was killed in a flying accident in 1947.

After Prince Gustaf Adolf's death there were just TWO Princes left in the male line of succession: Bertil, who could not marry the love of his life Lilian Craig because he too would have had to renounce his rights, and the current King, who was only nine months old when his father died.

So because of the strict application of the very rigid "equal marriage" rules the continued existence of the Bernadotte Dynasty hung by a thread.
.

 

[msfroyste]

perhaps carlos hugo was pissed b/c someone close to him was getting happily married and he was being ditched, thus he decided to take it out on everyone around him. had it been me, i would've given him a good kick in the pants and told him to get over himself. perhaps that's what jean basically did (or could've acutally done, don't know, i wasn't there) when he nixed the bourbon-parma name/titles.

 

[florawindsor]

thanks norwegianne. it seems the GB royalty always are very rigid about the titles.
but i don't know there were so many renunciation in continental royal family cos of their marriage!

 

[Elspeth]

i have a question......why we call Princess Alexandra "princess". why not Princess Joachim?

If Prince Joachim had been a prince of the United Kingdom and hadn't been created a duke or earl when he married, she would have been known as Princess Joachim. However, in Denmark (and in the Netherlands) they do things differently and the wife of a prince is created princess with her own name.

 

[Elspeth]

thanks norwegianne. it seems the GB royalty always are very rigid about the titles.
but i don't know there were so many renunciation in continental royal family cos of their marriage!

Yes, it's sort of interesting that the British royal family is very hot on protocol but much more relaxed about the people who can become royal than some of the more "informal" monarchies.

 

[florawindsor]

If Prince Joachim had been a prince of the United Kingdom and hadn't been created a duke or earl when he married, she would have been known as Princess Joachim.

thank you Elspeth. i guess that's what's gonna happen to William's wife if he marries soon enough

 

[EmpressRouge]

thank you Elspeth. i guess that's what's gonna happen to William's wife if he marries soon enough

If William marries after Charles becomes king, he will become (though not automatically) the Prince of Wales, and his wife would be titled "(her name,) HRH the Princess of Wales." If William marries while Elizabeth is still the monarch, she'll probably grant his a new or extinct peerage title (e.g. Duke of Clarance, i think that ones extinct), like what Queen Victoria did for the future George V and Mary of Teck, then Duke and Duchess of York. Otherwise, William's wife would be known as HRH Princess William of Wales.

 

[His Lordship]

Hello EmpressRouge,

With all due respect, William would NOT be known as Prince of Wales nor would wis wife be known as Princess of Wales whether or not he married when Charles was on the throne or not, or if QEII was still Queen.

So let's clear some things up:

The oldest son of a monarch upon birth is automatically known as the Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay, Earl of Chester, Baron Renfrew and Prince and Great Steward of Scotland.

The monarch is the one who determines WHEN the oldest son receives the title Prince of Wales.

As the children of the Prince of Wales, William and Harry are officially HRH ______ of Wales.

When they marry, their wives will be called HRH Princess William, Harry of Wales, unless they already have a dukedome conferred upon them....then these women will be known as HRH first name of Dukedom.

Charles is Prince of Wales until mommy dies then he becomes king...William IS NOT automatically Prince of Wales until Charles confers it officially upon him...however he does receive automatically all the other titles....if he is married by that time, his wife will take the rank and female version of all those titles.

If he is married at the time he is coferred to be Prince of Wales, then his wife will be officially known as HRH first name, Princess of Wales.


Once again I would also like to point out that Diana never "lost" HRH...she only had that titular dignity during the duration of her marriage...even she knew that. The press are the ones who made such a big deal with that.

Hope this helps....again, I am only trying to print the facts and clear the confusion up.

 

[EmpressRouge]

Charles is Prince of Wales until mommy dies then he becomes king...William IS NOT automatically Prince of Wales until Charles confers it officially upon him...however he does receive automatically all the other titles....if he is married by that time, his wife will take the rank and female version of all those titles.

Please note that I did say "though not automatically" in my thread. And in all likelyhood, William probably will be eventually confered the title of Prince of Wales when (if) Charles becomes king.

 

[His Lordship]

I agree with you 100% Empress...cool profile name by the way....he would be conferred....I was trying to clear some things up to others as the titles for the British monarchy can be a little confusing.

 

[EmpressRouge]

perhaps carlos hugo was pissed b/c someone close to him was getting happily married and he was being ditched, thus he decided to take it out on everyone around him. had it been me, i would've given him a good kick in the pants and told him to get over himself. perhaps that's what jean basically did (or could've acutally done, don't know, i wasn't there) when he nixed the bourbon-parma name/titles.

It's ironic that they divorced after all the scandal Carlos Hugo and Irene caused with their marriage. Irene secretly converted to Catholicism, which her parents realized only after seeing her picture at Catholic mass in a newspaper. This and her engagement sparked a Protestant outcry and Constitutional crisis in Holland. Carlos Hugo was also a Carlist pretender to the Spanish throne and active leader in Franco's far-right facist party. She had agreed to cancel her engagement and return to the Netherlands, but was not on the plane sent to take her back. Queen Juliana and Prince Bernhard took a military plane towards Spain, but had to turn back because the Dutch gov't threatened to resign if its head of state were to set foot in Franco's facist Spain. The two were eventually married, but Irene lost her right of succession and forever live outside Holland. Some say she had been Franco's pawn. They became part of the intern'l jet-set before divorcing in 1981. Though the Dutch royal family has a long history of controversial marriages, I think this one was the biggest. I would compare it to the likes of Henry VIII's marriage to Anne Boleyn.

 

[msfroyste]

yup, goes to show you, that ppl are ppl, and that misery loves company, whether you're royal or not.

 

[petritheturtle]

Titles of Widows

...a royal were to marry a normal citizen. Say if a prince marries a woman does she become a princess? And how does one achieve the status of Count? (ie the Count of Monte Cristo etc.)

 

[Von Schlesian]

Generally the elligibility of the future wives of Princes/Princesses are determained by the Monarch/Consort. It differs on the Monarchy, and certainly whether the Monarchy is still a ruling dynasty, or a former one.

As far as the title "Count", it is a title present in the Peerage (and in some cases, the Royal families), of certain countries eg: The Imperial German house of Hohenzollern contains many Princes, Grafs (Counts), Barons etc. To explain the titles system of the whole world would be a monumental task, but if perhaps you're more specific about the countries you're interested in, then a more consice answer can be given.

 

[Reina]

You could always buy one (a title of course)

 

[petritheturtle]

The French Monarchy, the monegasque in particular. If Princess Caroline had married a normal man, then would he become a Prince? As for the question of becoming a count, I am inquiring about the same monarchies. What does the title of Count signify? Also, since Princess Caroline never gave her children titles, does that mean that they can never attain them? How would they go about acquiring their titles if they felt the need?

 

[petritheturtle]

You could always buy one (a title of course)

Can that title be awarded aswell?

 

[Von Schlesian]

Historically the title of Count was someone who was the head of a "County" (an area of land within a Kingdom/Principality etc where an individual had been appointed as the Monarchs' representative. They rank above Knights and Barons, but below a Marquis, Duke or Prince. That is the most simple explaination. The title of Count is generally European, however I'm not educated enough on the Monarchies of the Middle East and Asia to speak for them.

Generally if a Princess married a commoner, they would not recieve the title of "Prince", however, it does depend on the position of the Princess, and the Monarch. Depending on the Monarchy, it depends on the power exercisable by the monarch. I cannot give you an example regarding France (or more accurately, the French Royal Houses).

 

[petritheturtle]

Downs Monaco even use the term Count? Or Comte?

 

[Idriel]

Can that title be awarded aswell?

I am totally ignorant when it comes to Monaco, but I know that in France you can buy aristocratic titles. Basically, you buy "letters of nobility" that prove you have the right to use a title and your kids after you. But, contrary to Germany where titles are part of the name and appear on the passport, titles are not recognized by the French republic. So you can buy the title of Count of Monte Cristo (if it is to sell), but you can only use it to impress in society, not officially.
The kings of France used to award Dukedom to their mistress, so I guess Monarch can award a County, which is a lesser title. I know the Queen of UK can, as she created her son Edward Count of Wessex.

 

[Idriel]

Downs Monaco even use the term Count? Or Comte?

I think that among his 20 or so titles, Rainier had a or several title of Count. Someone more expert than me will answer, I'm certain.

 

[norwegianne]

Prince William of Denmark (I think) married Queen Mary II of England in the late 1600's and he became King. She even died before him and he still ruled for several years before dying himself. I'm not sure exactly why but if anyone can fil me in that ould be great. Queen Mary was the daughter of King James and sister to Queen Anne.

William of Orange and Mary II ruled jointly.

 

[Iain]

i think Prince Philip did give up his Greece Prince title ,cos when he bacame a british citizen, he was Lieut. Mountbatten. also, when u abandon your nationality, isn't it only natural you give up all the titles you have in that country?
afterall there was no monarchy in greece now, so it's of no importance whether he gave it up or not,imho

THe whole prince Philip saga smacks of British snobery. The British, or more correctly the English, believe that the Windsors are superior to all other royal families.

 

[Warren]

All superior

THe whole prince Philip saga smacks of British snobery. The British, or more correctly the English, believe that the Windsors are superior to all other royal families.

Depends on what you mean by "superior". I am sure the Danish, for example, think their Royal Family is "superior" to any others becuase it is theirs. Ditto for Spain, The Netherlands, Liechtenstein, Monaco, Thailand, Brunei, Tonga etc etc. One would expect that the people of a Monarchy would have greater loyalty to their own dynasty than another country's.

In terms of international recognition and awareness there is no argument that the Windsors are the most well known. If the English thought the Windsors were "inferior" to other Royal Families we would have something to worry about, just as (for example) the Nassaus would if the people of Luxembourg thought their Grand Ducal Family was "inferior". It's about loyalty and pride in one's own reigning House. Surely that is natural?
.

 

[Marengo]

Well, in other european countries one would not be ashamed when the fiance is a prince of Greece and Denmark, on the contrary I think. The spanish never asked Queen Sophie to change her name in Miss Sophie von Sleswich-Holstein, as the english did of Prince Phillip for example, english snobbery at its worst indeed! I believe in those years Greece was even an ally against communism!

 

[Von Schlesian]

Greece was still a Kingdom in 1947 when HRH The Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh disclaimed his titles of Prince of Greece and Denmark. These actions, (and those which preceaded them in 1917 with the changing of the Germanic House names), aren't quite marks of British/English snobbery. They were decisions made on the advice of the elected government members, and appointed civil servants who take care of diplomatic relations, protocol and ettiquette, and in doing so believe the decisions made, are in the best interests of the monarchs' subjects, and the monarchy itself.