Non-British Styles and Titles

[popsicle]

i thought Phillip was a prince of greece before he married QEII

 

[ksenia]

he was a prince of greece but there is some confusion whether or not he gave those titles up when he became a british citizen

 

[florawindsor]

i think Prince Philip did give up his Greece Prince title ,cos when he bacame a british citizen, he was Lieut. Mountbatten. also, when u abandon your nationality, isn't it only natural you give up all the titles you have in that country?
afterall there was no monarchy in greece now, so it's of no importance whether he gave it up or not,imho

 

[KikkiB]

I found this on Encyclopedia Britannica online;

Philip, duke of Edinburgh
born June 10, 1921, Corfu, Greece
in full Prince Philip, duke of Edinburgh, earl of Merioneth and baron Greenwich, also called Philip Mountbatten, original name Philip, prince of Greece and Denmark husband of Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom.

 

[Duchess]

Diana was indeed the daughter of the Earl Spencer but it was Johnnie not Charles. Charles is her brother and the current Earl, which her inherited on the death of his father. The other ladies had no titles at the time of their marriages as far as I know.

 

[Duchess]

Sarah was Princess Andrew upon her marriage. But Sara, these titles are given only to the men (at least in these circumstances) upon their engagements and the women took them on only after their marriages. The women were still known by their given names (and family titles if appropriate) when they became engaged. However, with Princess and Anthony Armstrong Jones, I believe he was made Lord Snowdon before the marriage?

 

[HMQueenElizabethII]

Sophie is NOT a Princess (in her own right) - she is HRH The Countess of Wessex! This was the style that Queen Elizabeth II created for her at her marriage to one of her sons. I think her titles are (not in her own right): HRH The Princess Edward, Countess of Wessex, Viscountess Severn.

Princess Alice, The Duchess of Gloucester, on the other hand - is another matter. She was born in a different era, and was already the daughter of a Duke when she was married. When her husband, The Duke of Gloucester, died in 1974, she became known as Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester to distinguish herself from her daughter-in-law who is now the new Duchess of Gloucester.

More information about the Gloucesters:
A GRANDSON of King George V, and first cousin to Queen Elizabeth, Prince Richard Alexander Walter George had planned on a career in architecture until his older brother, Prince Frederick, died in 1972. Richard changed career paths and prepared to succeed his father as Duke of Gloucester, which he did in 1974.

The Duke, who was born on August 26, 1944, is an active patron of a number of architectural organizations and has produced four books on photography. In 1972 he married Brigitte Eva van Deurs, daughter of a Danish lawyer. The Duchess of Gloucester is an active patron, especially of medical organizations. They had three children, Alexander, Earl of Ulster, born in 1974; Lady Davina Windsor, born in 1977; and Lady Rose Windsor, born in 1980. None of the children undertake official duties.

 

[lashinka2002]

Wouldn't the Wessex title eventually go to Edward & Sophie's son (if they have one or upon the sons marraige) provided they inherit the edinburgh title. Would Lady Louise be able to inherit the wessex title or any title other that Lady in her own right? Or would it just revert to the crown.

 

[GrandDuchess]

Wouldn't the Wessex title eventually go to Edward & Sophie's son (if they have one or upon the sons marraige) provided they inherit the edinburgh title. Would Lady Louise be able to inherit the wessex title or any title other that Lady in her own right? Or would it just revert to the crown.

If they had a son, the title would eventually pass to him. Lady Louise will always be a Lady, as it is just a courtesy title for her as the daughter of an Earl.

Peerages only pass in male lines I think, and I'm guessing that the Wessex title is not a title for life (meaning when the holder of the peerage dies, the peerage also dies), but I don't know how it will work then - because normally the title would then go to another male relative of the holder of the Wessex peerage... Very confusing, I think we could use an expert here!

 

[selrahc4]

However, with Princess and Anthony Armstrong Jones, I believe he was made Lord Snowdon before the marriage?

He was given the title Earl of Snowdon over a year after the wedding, when they were expecting their first child.

 

[Nathalian]

Can, for example, a Prince marry a CP Princess and become a King? Like Fernando of Aragón and Isabel of Castela? If it was created a monarchy and the woman is becoming a Queen, her husband would become a King?

 

[Anna_R]

At the time of her engagement, Letizia Ortiz was given the distinction of Doña, who's the equivalent of Lady.

Upon getting married, she acquired all of Felipe's titles and now she is: Princess of Asturias, Princess of Girona, Princess of Viana, Duchess of Mountblanc, Countess of Cervera and Lady of Balaguer

 

[KikkiB]

Can, for example, a Prince marry a CP Princess and become a King? Like Fernando of Aragón and Isabel of Castela? If it was created a monarchy and the woman is becoming a Queen, her husband would become a King?

No he can't, because King is a higher, or more "valuable" title than Queen. Which would mean that the person marrying the ruling queen would push her off the throne and take the place. That's why you have the title of Prince Consort to ruling Queens. You could say that King is no. 1 and Queen is no. 2, but where you don't have a King but a ruling Queen she will be no. 1.

Does this make sense

 

[Duchess]

He was given the title Earl of Snowdon over a year after the wedding, when they were expecting their first child.

thanks for the clarification

 

[Nathalian]

Yes, I understood...but, he has almost the same power as the Queen....???? I think of Prince Phillip...I now that he hasn´t the same power as the Queen...but, he has a lot right?? Do you have any idea of Princes consorts who became more popular that the Queen it self?

 

[MoonlightRhapsody]

If they had a son, the title would eventually pass to him. Lady Louise will always be a Lady, as it is just a courtesy title for her as the daughter of an Earl.

Peerages only pass in male lines I think, and I'm guessing that the Wessex title is not a title for life (meaning when the holder of the peerage dies, the peerage also dies), but I don't know how it will work then - because normally the title would then go to another male relative of the holder of the Wessex peerage... Very confusing, I think we could use an expert here!

I know that Queen Elizabeth II bestowed that title on Prince Edward upon his marriage. Now, when he passes on, wouldn't the title revert back to the Crown? His father, the Duke, has said that his title will pass on to Edward when he dies, but I hear that the title will revert back to the Crown then the monarch (either his mother, his brother, or maybe even his nephew!) would give the title to Edward?

Anyway, nice little side comment about titles, I'm glad that Alexandra of Denmark (Prince Joachim's ex-wife, not the cousin) has been bestowed her own title of Countess. I'm still not clear if she is now a princess in her own right; it seems like it because I would think that since she's divorced from Prince Joachim, Queen Margarethe was under no obligation to let Alexandra continue to be a member of the Royal Family and/or retain her title. So I would think that she was made a princess in her own right and that her title of Her Highness is completely separate from her former title of Her Royal Highness.

 

[Warren]

Peerages

If they had a son, the title would eventually pass to him. Lady Louise will always be a Lady, as it is just a courtesy title for her as the daughter of an Earl.

Peerages only pass in male lines I think, and I'm guessing that the Wessex title is not a title for life (meaning when the holder of the peerage dies, the peerage also dies), but I don't know how it will work then - because normally the title would then go to another male relative of the holder of the Wessex peerage... Very confusing, I think we could use an expert here!

Each Peerage has its own Letters Patent which details how the peerage can be passed on, or not. Most peerages follow in the male line, some have Letters Patent which stipulate it can pass through a female line (the best example here is Lord Mountbatten: his Earldom of Burma passed to his eldest daughter so she became Countess Mountbatten of Burma.)

As to what the Letters Patent say about the Earldom of Wessex, I have no idea. Perhaps with Royal peerages they make it up as they go along. Lady Louise (Wessex) is by all rights a Princess and HRH. There have been no Letters Patent denying her this rightful style and title as far as I know, just an announcement saying "she will be known as.." (sound familiar?).

Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh in due course, and not Charles as the eldest son, because Edinburgh is a Royal Dukedom, and the "rules" regarding this dignity appear to be very flexible!
.

 

[selrahc4]

As to what the Letters Patent say about the Earldom of Wessex, I have no idea. .

The title passes to males only as stated in the Letters Patent: "heirs male of his body lawfully begotten"

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/searchResultsView.asp?webType=0&searchString=earl+of+wessex&selDateFromDay=1&selDateFromMonth=1&selDateFromYear=1998&selDateToDay=8&selDateToMonth=5&selDateToYear=2005&searchIn=Notice&PageNumber=2

 

[selrahc4]

Edward will become Duke of Edinburgh in due course, and not Charles as the eldest son, because Edinburgh is a Royal Dukedom, and the "rules" regarding this dignity appear to be very flexible!
.

Prince Charles is the heir to the title Duke of Edinburgh. If he out-lives his father, he (Charles) will become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh of the current creation of that title. There are permutations whereby Prince Edward could inherit the title. But, the most likely scenario is that at sometime the holder will become Sovereign at which time the title merges with the crown and a new creation can be made.

 

[lashinka2002]

Prince William of Denmark (I think) married Queen Mary II of England in the late 1600's and he became King. She even died before him and he still ruled for several years before dying himself. I'm not sure exactly why but if anyone can fil me in that ould be great. Queen Mary was the daughter of King James and sister to Queen Anne.

 

[Warren]

Thanks

Prince Charles is the heir to the title Duke of Edinburgh. If he out-lives his father, he (Charles) will become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh of the current creation of that title. There are permutations whereby Prince Edward could inherit the title. But, the most likely scenario is that at sometime the holder will become Sovereign at which time the title merges with the crown and a new creation can be made.

Thanks for clearing this up selrahc4. I have seen on ERMB discussion about the "transfer" of the Dukedom of Edinburgh to Prince Edward, and the various possible scenarios. Like much of the esoterics within the House of Windsor, nothing is certain!

As the Wessex Letters Patent restrict the dignity to the male line it seems likely that Prince Edward will be the first and last Earl of Wessex in the current creation of this Royal title. Lady Louise is denied again!
.

 

[His Lordship]

Wow..great discussion on here.

In Britain, when the son of a monarch is married, or in some cases comes of age, he is given a secondary title, usually Duke of ______ to add behind the Prince. There are a select handful of dukedoms that are solely used by the princes of the blood royal.

When he marries as Claire and others accurately point out, his assumes the rank of princess but is called by his secondary title.

Andrew, Duke of York.....when he married Sarah her official title was HRH Sarah, Duchess of York.

Diana -Americans always get this wrong - she was never an HRH except during the period of her marriage. When she divorced she lost the HRH status - AUTOMATICALLY! This has nothing to do how the queen felt about her.

Her correct title once and for all while she was alive and married was HRH Diana Princess of Wales.

Anne was born a princess and given the title Princess Royal as recognition for her work. That is her official title.

Edward did not want a dukedom, but when Prince Philip dies, the Queen, or Charles if he is King, will give him the title Duke of Edinburgh...Sofia will then be known as HRH Sofia Duchess of Edinburgh.

Titles in the English Royal family follow the grade of peers for the most part. Born a prince, made a duke and then usually another title Earl or Baron.

Prince George had two sons, Edward and Michael. Edward the oldest is now the Duke of Kent - and has his father's other titles kept with him - Earl of St. Andrews and Baron Downpatrick - his oldest son and grandson use these as courtsey titles...this does NOT make them peers however.

Prince Michael only has the title of Prince, which is why, as Claire accurately points out his wife is known as HRH Princess Michael of Kent.

Titles used to be a big concern in the 19th and early 20th century. The highest level was HIRH - Her Imperial and Royal Highness - Grand Duchess Elizabeth (Ellen) of Russia married to one of Prince Philip's Greek uncles insisted on being addressed by her combined Russian and Greek titles - much to the amusement of her Greek inlaws.

Now comes the fun part......when you are born a princess and then marry a prince, you keep the title princess in front of your name and then assume the country or region of your husband...Princess Caroline of Hanover....Before she was Queen, Princess Sofia - Princess of Asturias. Princess Ingrid of Sweden, when she married Prince William became Princess Ingred of Denmark.

Also, HRH Princess Josephine Charlotte of Belgium picked up the title HGDH Princess of Luxembourg when she married so she was both HRH and HGDH.

Hope this helps.

 

[Alexandria]

Not quite a question, but I am noticing more and more frequently the Prince of Wales title being diminished in its usage to Prince Charles. More and more frequently I am seeing the Duke of Cornwall title in articles and photo references to Prince Charles.

I guess this is an attempt to connect him to Camilla and emphasize the importance of this title, and that Camilla does not go by Princess of Wales (even though she could). Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[norwegianne]

Princess Ingrid of Sweden, when she married Prince William became Princess Ingred of Denmark.

Princess Ingrid of Sweden married Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark, and became Crown Princess Ingrid of Denmark.

 

[His Lordship]

I agree with both moderators....although I spelled Ingrid wrong..thank you Norwegianne for correcting me.

I agree Alexandria, legally Camilla has the right to use ALL of Charles's titles...and yes, tit seems the Prince of Wales one is being used less.

But then again, depending on where Charles and Camilla have official engagements, the proper title is used. When in Scotland they are the Duke and Duchess of Rothesay and are noted as such in articles and mentions.

When in Chesire, the are known as the Earl and Countess of Chester.

When in Cornwall, Charles is known by that title.

The Court Circular refers to them this way as well depending on where the official engagements are geographically speaking.

I really enjoy these forums by the way. Thanks to you both.

 

[Warren]

Luxembourg Style

Also, HRH Princess Josephine Charlotte of Belgium picked up the title HGDH Princess of Luxembourg when she married so she was both HRH and HGDH.

Prior to the Luxembourg House becoming "Royal", the Grand Duke and Hereditary Grand Duke or Duchess bore the style of Royal Highness, while other members of the family were Grand Ducal Highness.

After HRH Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg married HRH Prince Felix of Bourbon-Parma in 1919 all their children were born Royal Highnesses.

In this manner the Grand Ducal family raised themselves to Royal status.

The last person to use the Grand Ducal Highness style would have been Princess Hilda, who died in 1979. She was one of the five sisters of Charlotte, their father being Grand Duke Guillaume IV. Hilda was HGDH until her marriage in 1930 to the 10th Prince of Schwarzenberg.
.

 

[msfroyste]

hmmm, odd/interesting considering the fact that the grand ducal house nixed the bourbon-parma from their names and in some cases, i think, their titles.

 

[Warren]

Luxembourg & Bourbon-Parma

hmmm, odd/interesting considering the fact that the Grand Ducal House nixed the Bourbon-Parma from their names and in some cases, I think, their titles.

Yes, it caused some comment at the time. Up until 1986 members of the family bore the title of Prince or Princess of Luxembourg, Bourbon-Parma and Nassau, Royal Highness.

In 1986 the Bourbon-Parma heritage was cast aside, I guess to reinforce the traditional links with both Luxembourg (the State) and Nassau (the House).

No different from the British ditching Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in favour of Windsor, or the Belgians use of "of Belgium" without even mentioning the House name (again, Saxe-Coburg and Gotha).

These are political and dynastic decisions, and apart from the change to "House of Windsor" in 1917, little discussed in public.

By the way, Juliana of The Netherlands was born a Princess of Orange-Nassau, Duchess of Mecklenburg, and her four daughters are Princesses of Orange-Nassau, Princesses of Lippe-Biesterfeld.
.

 

[His Lordship]

Thank you for your information Warren. That clears up my confusion regarding Luxembourg and their titles.

 

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

There was something that a cousin with the title of Borbon-Parma had done that was really bad, but I forget what. So Jean nixed the name. But now Henri has put it back in his title.