Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants


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I don't think any of the Romanov descendents have an undisputed claim to the succession. While highly unlikely ever to happen, if a monarchist party should somehow get elected in significant enough numbers to form a government or even hold the balance of power there is no reason why they should not select Rostislav or some other Romanov as candidate for Tsar and Maria and her son would be shoved aside. Rostislav at least lives and works in Russia so would have some familiarity with day to day life in the country.
I would put the odds of a restoration at only slightly better than Monaco becoming a military super power so I hope none of the Romanovs start getting measured for their coronation robes just yet.
 
The vast majority of Russians couldn't care less about the Romanovs or restoring the monarchy. It isn't going to happen.

The focus should be on building the rule of law and strong democractic institutions that support the will of the people. They are tired of autocracy and corruption.
 
Why would they ever want to restore a dreadful monarchy, after the years of Communism, which were awful, too. Hopefully, they we would want a decent, democratic government.
 
I met Rostislav quite accidentally while in Moscow. Didn't have any idea who he was until a friend told me. He is really quite adorable, especially when trying to speak Russian. I think he may add to the Romanov popularity in Russia in times to come. There is a strong political void right now; there is Putin, and basically there is no one else. Monarchy could be the answer to Russia's troubles.
I daresay Prince Nicholas Romanov (and by default, his presumed eventual heir, Prince Rostislav) have far more realistic chances to the Throne than Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna and Prince Georgi. I wish it weren't so, because as an Armenian I have nothing but warmest feelings to our Georgian brothers (and the Grand Duchess's mother was Georgian), but there is no way Russians would ever accept a ruler who is 1/4 Georgian and 1/2 German.
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I've just gone through the charts and if I understand matters correctly (and there's a good chance I don't), then if we set aside Maria's claim, Nicholas Romanovich, Dmitri Romanovich and Andrew Andreevich are the first three in line. After their passing we could anticipate that Andreevich's sons would be in line: they themselves have no sons but are not yet at an age when we would rule out the possibility.
And THEN we have the descendants of Rostislav Alexandrovich: Rostislav, Nikita, Nicholas, Daniel. Am I on the right page?
 
Prince Nicholas and Dimitri Romanovich are not in the line of succession to Maria Vladimirovna.

If we accept the marriage of Maria Vladimirovna's parents as equal (non-morganatic) and in accordance with all Romanov marriage rules and laws, then the one (and at this point, only) person in line of succession to the Grand Duchess is Prince Georgi Mikhailovich (and his descendants).
If Georgi dies without legitimate heirs, then the claims would probably be inherited by Prince Karl Vladimir of Yugoslavia - the nearest male Orthodox relative of the Grand Duchess who complies with all household rules. Prince Karl Vladimir has no legitimate male issue; his younger brother, Dimitri, does have children, but his marriage was morganatic, so they are ineligible. Next in the line would be Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia. The Line of Succession to Prince Karl Vladimir looks like this:
- Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia
- Prince Dimitri of Yugoslavia
- Prince Michael of Yugoslavia
- Prince Sergius of Yugoslavia
- Prince Dushan of Yugoslavia
None of these Princes have legitimate male issue as of now.

The nearest non-Orthodox male relative of the Grand Duchess is Karl Emich, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen. Assuming he joins the Orthodox Church, his claims would be preferable to those of Prince Karl Vladimir. In that case, the line of succession to Prince Karl Emich would look like this:
- Prince Emich of Leiningen
- Andreas, Prince of Leiningen
- Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen
- Prince Hermann of Leiningen


The marriage of Prince Nicholas Romanovich's parents almost certainly did violate Romanov marriage rules. However, Prince Nicholas claims he couldn't have lost succession rights because his father was not actually required to marry a fellow royal: according to him, the Romanov laws only required Grand Dukes (sons and male-line grandsons of the Emperor) to marry women of equal rank. Since his father was only a Prince (a great-grandson of the Emperor), that presumably gave him a freedom to marry whoever he wished. I should say few agree with this interpretation of Romanov marriage law. Nevertheless, assuming as senior male-line descendant of Nicholas I (*), Prince Nicholas is indeed the rightful heir, then the line of succession to him looks like this:
- Prince Dimitri Romanovich
- Prince Andrew Andreevich
- Prince Alexis Andreevich
- Prince Peter Andreevich
- Prince Andrew Andreevich
- Prince Rostislav Rostislavovich
- Prince Nikita Rostislavovich
- Prince Nicholas Christopher Nikolaievich
- Prince Daniel Joseph Nikolaievich
- Prince Jackson Daniel Danilovich

* Prince Nicholas is not, in fact, the genealogically senior descendant of Nicholas I: he is descended from one of Nicholas I's younger sons, however there are several living descendants of the Emperor's older sons. However, he is the senior-most descendant to have kept his succession rights (which is arguable).
 
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The senior male-line genealogical morganaut is Dimitri Ilinsky, the eldest male grandson of Grand Duke Dimitri from his morganatic marriage to Audrey Emery.

Maria is considered to be the Head of the Imperial House by virtue of the fact her father was the last dynast and undisputed Head of the House. While her parents' marriage is arguably morganatic under the Pauline Laws, the fact is her father, as de-jure Tsar, had the sole right to determine whether any marriage was in compliance with the Laws.

Nicholas Romanov's interpretation of the Pauline Laws ignores the fact that a marriage of a dynast and a person not of corresponding rank conferred no succession rights on the issue of such marriage. In other words, the Emperor could recognize an unequal marriage for a Prince of the Imperial Blood, but their children would remain morganatic with no succession rights whatsoever.

Nicholas' father, Prince Roman, married a Russian noble who was not of equal rank. In addition, he married without permission of Grand Duke Cyril, which under the Pauline Laws, automatically results in the loss of succession rights. Nicholas is definitely a morganaut and has no princely title.
 
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Grand duchess Maria pavlovna and her brother, grand duke Dmitri pavlovich have defendants that are still living today and some even live in the US like count lennart Bernadotte and paul romanoff-illynsky's grandchildren but only some have a royal title.
 
as de-jure Tsar,
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What does that even mean? De jure there is no Tsar, the monarchy having been abolished under Russian law.
 
The nearest non-Orthodox male relative of the Grand Duchess is Karl Emich, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen. Assuming he joins the Orthodox Church, his claims would be preferable to those of Prince Karl Vladimir. In that case, the line of succession to Prince Karl Emich would look like this:
- Prince Emich of Leiningen
- Andreas, Prince of Leiningen
- Ferdinand, Hereditary Prince of Leiningen
- Prince Hermann of Leiningen

The marriage of Prince Nicholas Romanovich's parents almost certainly did violate Romanov marriage rules. However, Prince Nicholas claims he couldn't have lost succession rights because his father was not actually required to marry a fellow royal: according to him, the Romanov laws only required Grand Dukes (sons and male-line grandsons of the Emperor) to marry women of equal rank. Since his father was only a Prince (a great-grandson of the Emperor), that presumably gave him a freedom to marry whoever he wished. I should say few agree with this interpretation of Romanov marriage law.[/QUOTE]

This is mostly correct. Prince Nicholas is claiming house laws do not apply to princes (great-grandsons of tsars), only grand dukes (sons, grandsons) thus leaving him still in succession which is both incorrect and crazy.

However, Karl Emich's first and second marriages would be considered morgantic thus excluding him and his son Emich. I believe it is worded in such a way that when there are no male dynasts left it then passes in the female line to male and female members. Otherwise it would be George not Maria who is the present claimnant to the throne.

Thus the next one after George would be Karl Emich's daughter from his first (non-morgantic) marriage - Cecelia, then Andreas, Ferdinand, Hermann, Olga, etc. if they converted to Orthodoxy.

Otherwise Karl of Serbia, Dmitri and then possibly their legitimized sister Lavinia (not sure if acceptable, but i believe there is presidence that is if she is orthodox too), then sons Andrej and Luca, followed by Alexander etc.

Rostislav's claim is based on being descended from Nicholas's siser Xenia and thus closer related than Maria and Nicholas (but not closest hereditarily) but closest living in Russia.
 
If we assume that Maria Vladimirovna is ineligible for succession due to her mother's non-royal status, the Pauline Laws state the throne passes through the female-line of the last reigning Emperor if all male-lines are exhausted of dynasts.

In this scenario, Vladimir Kirillovich's line would be defunct with his death in 1992. The next potential lines would be through his sisters, Marie and Kira, who both married equally into the Hohenzollern and Leiningen royal houses. However, the Pauline Laws state the monarch, the heir and the heir's mother all must be Orthodox in order to qualify. That rules out both Marie and Kira's descendants.

Returning to Grand Duke Cyril, the succession would pass through his closest female relative meeting the criteria of the Pauline Laws, which is his sister, Grand Duchess Elena Vladimirovna. She married equally to Prince Nicholas of Greece in an Orthodox union and had three daughters.

The eldest child, Princess Olga, married equally to Prince Paul of Yugoslavia in another Orthodox union. Their eldest son, Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia, is arguably the correct heir to the throne today by the strictest interpetation of the Pauline Laws.
 
While I forgot about Karl and Lavinia's marriages not meeting standards, while his maternal grandparents are both not, the parents of Dimitri wre both probably and that might be good enough. Prince Dimitri of Serbia (1965) - son of Kira of Leiningen - daughter of Grand Duchess Maria - daughter of Kirill - son of Vladimir - is the closest orthodox relative.

Then Alexander (1924) and his unmarried sons Dimitri (1958), Michael (1958), and Dushan (1977), then Michael of Romania (1921), Peter (1980), Alexander (1982) and Philip of Serbia (1982) (if mother's status holds up), then Constantine of Greece (1940), Philippos (1986), Theodora (1983), and Irene (1942).

Of course, this all based on the fact the ones under 72 on this list have not married unlike their relatives and it is probable considering some of their ages will not marry. If we are being that stingent - without considering conversions - the men will have to either marry Theodora if not too close (ie Philippos), Maria of Serbia (dimitri 65, peter, alexander, philip), or Mafalda (1994) or Olimpia (1995) of Bulgaria, unless Michael of Romania promotes Karina (1989). That is if you aren't counting Georgia which has Ines (1980). So until one of the under 72 set weds an approprite match - royal with preferable russian ancestry, there is no point really considering them.

Whether it be George or the others finding a suitable match is hard part - his dad was a convert.

I would not discount the non-orthodox royals in between or potential unorthodox spouses cause getting an already orthodox royal heir wed to an already orthodox royal is near impossible without it arranged. :bang: Good luck getting Theodora to give up acting to wed one of this lot. :whistling: You only need to be orthodox when you take on the job not at birth.

Still I can't see any scenario that makes any of them more acceptable to the Russians than Maria or George.
 
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None of the descendants alive today are acceptable to Russians. There is no chance of the monarchy being restored under a Romanov.
 
:previous:
None of the choices currently available are even known to most Russians, let alone acceptable.
 
It is probably fair to say that
1/ the restoration of the monarchy in Russia is unlikely
2/ in the event of the restoration of the monarchy in Russia, the new monarchy is likely to be a "reboot" and may not be created with any regard to the Pauline laws
3/ discussions about succession with regard to the Russian monarchy are probably effectively only about the identity of the head of the House of Romanov and the distribution of titles therewithin.

By their public statements, the senior members of the Romanov family seem to understand this.
 
On the topic generally, I guess that only two (or, arguably, three) of the extant European monarchies were restored after having been abolished: the English (later, British) monarchy, the Spanish and (arguably) the Dutch.

The restoration of the Spanish monarchy was a fairly unsual case in that it was effectively restored, with considerable powers, by a dictator: after that dictator's demise, the monarch divested himself of much of his power and quite smoothly effected Spain's transition to a modern constitutional monarchy. While this was most commendable, it is quite a different case from a democratic republic* deciding to bring back the monarchy.


Polls indicate a small but significant fraction of Romanians favour restoration of the monarchy. The last King of Romania (Michael) is still alive: he appears to be well regarded generally as a kind of elder statesman but he doesn't push the monarchist barrow.

The last Tsar of Bulgaria is also still with us. Simeon had a term as Prime Minister from 2001-2004. Although he personally also remains well regarded, he doesn't appear to hold ambitions of restoration and any popular support for the idea appears to have faded.

Alexander of Yugoslavia is, on the other hand, very popular and is an outspoken advocate of restoration (in Serbia). His father was the last King. Alexander himself was born in London. Might be one to watch. Monarchism seems to be becoming more popular in Serbia, and there could be no dispute about the succession.

In all of these cases, the monarchies were abolished "in living memory", as they say, and some old people may even reflect positively on their young lives under the monarchy before Communism, and even people who are not so old will have been influenced by their parents.

This isn't really the case for Russia's monarchy, which was abolished a generation before those of Eastern Europe.



*in the sense of a republic that is democratic, not a Democratic Republic such as North Korea...
 
Spain was also different in the sense that the monarchy was not actually abolished. Under Franco Spain was simply a kingdom without a reigning king. Franco then selected a suitable heir, supervised his education, saw him suitably married, and then officially proclaimed him as heir so that everything was in place when Franco met his end. The infrastructure of monarchy was already in place when JC took his oath as King.

The same cannot be said of Russia which has gone from Tsarist regime to communist dictatorship, to the break up of the USSR to todays pseudo "democratic" Russian Federation in less than 100 years. Doubtful if anyone alive today remembers living under the Tsar and if then did would their memories be fond ones? Not likely.
 
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You also have the fact that many Russians today were educated during the Soviet era and do not have warm feelings towards their imperial past. Particularly, the role of the Romanovs during World War I.

Russia's main problems today are the lack of transition from the Soviet dictatorship and related corruption to a true democracy with strong institutions. Putin is just another statist in different clothing. Even though Russians have more prosperity and freedom than they ever did during the Soviet Union, they still lack a government elected by the people.
 
:previous:
I have yet to see any government elected by people in any country of the world, but not illusions of a fair electoral process.
 
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Alexander, King of Serbia = Alexander IV of Russia? He'd be quite busy...
 
:previous:
If I understood your post correctly, you are probably confusing Alexander II, Crown Prince of Serbia and Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia. :)
Crown Prince Alexander is pretender to the Throne of Serbia (Yugoslavia), while Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia is the son of Prince Paul of Yugoslavia,, the Prince Regent and an (possible) heir to the claims to the Russian Imperial Throne.

Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia (b. 1924) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Alexander, Crown Prince of Yugoslavia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
"If I understood your post correctly, you are probably confusing Alexander II, Crown Prince of Serbia and Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia."

You're correct, I misunderstood.

And there's another Prince Alexander of Yugoslavia ... (Alexander II's son) ... I'm bound to get confused.
 
I know less about this than anyone posting, but what I've read on the Forums indicates to me that some monarchies were simply appointed. One of these was the Norwegian. Norway was part of Sweden, but then separated, and the people voted in monarchy over republic. They appointed Queen Maud, a British princess who had married the second son of the Danish king, who had one son, Olaf, who succeeded Maud and her Danish husband whose name I can't remember, because he changed it when he became king of Norway. Neither Maud nor her husband had expected to be sovereign of any country.
Seems to me Sweden elected a King, too, Count Bernadotte? I don't remember what happened to the previous royal family of Sweden.
I read on the Forums that there was a Protestant/Catholic crisis involving the sovereign in Holland, and so a female became queen in Holland (which accepted queens) and a male became king in the new spinoff of Luxembourg, which accepted only male sovereigns. Not that Luxembourg did not previously exist in some form, but it underwent a metamorphosis and got a "royal family" at that critical juncture.

If Scotland became separate from England, they could vote in a new monarch, perhaps a king or queen from one of the older royal lines, the Stuarts or the Bruces or the McAlpines before that, going clear back to sovereigns of Ireland lost in the mists. Because Scotland elected her sovereign in the Middle Ages up until the point where the Stuarts became hereditary monarchs, there are several lines to choose from. I think that would be a very good idea. I think Scotland deserves its own king if it wants one, but probably they would vote for a Republic under QEII, which I think is a bad idea if one knows the history of Scotland vs. England. England ravaged Scotland in the Middle Ages and afterwards. I didn't know until I started reading history. One of my family lines goes back to medieval Scotland and so I was looking at the descent.
 
Mariel said:
Seems to me Sweden elected a King, too, Count Bernadotte? I don't remember what happened to the previous royal family of Sweden.
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One of our kings, Gustav IV Adolf, lost Finland to Russia and was forced to abdicate and leave the country. And his children also lost their places in the succession. And thus, the throne went to his uncle, Carl XIII, who had no legitimate children. So he adopted Jean Baptiste Bernadotte, the later Carl XIV Johan.
 
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Also, Mariel 1, Princess Maud of Britain married Prince Carl and they became King Haakon VII( I think) and Queen Maud. Their only child, Olaf(whose birth name I don't recall), married Princess Martha Louise and were the parents of the currenct King Harald of NorwaY. Furienna, the original Count Bernadotte wasn't Swedish anyway, was he?
 
Jean Bernadotte was French, one of Napoleon's famous Marshals. He impressed the Swedes with his humanity when he was Governor of French-occupied Swedish Pomerania. When it became apparent that the line of Swedish Kings would die out Bernadotte was chosen as Crown Prince by Parliament, with the aged King's approval.

And King Olav V of Norway was born Prince Alexander of Denmark.
 
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2/ in the event of the restoration of the monarchy in Russia, the new monarchy is likely to be a "reboot" and may not be created with any regard to the Pauline laws
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I believe the Pauline Laws are pointless at this juncture mainly because the butchery of the revolution complicated things considerably and now go figure, it makes agreeing on a candidate impossible. So realistically, the Pauline Laws are obsolete and irrelevant. To me the most important aspect is who is more closely descended, which is Rostislav and I do not think that the rules are still relevant in any area.

3/ discussions about succession with regard to the Russian monarchy are probably effectively only about the identity of the head of the House of Romanov and the distribution of titles therewithin.
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Well, according to protocol, titles are not usually given out (stuff like knighthoods, etc.) and you wouldnt' know that the way that Maria V. acts.

By their public statements, the senior members of the Romanov family seem to understand this.
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To be honest, the Romanov Family Association seems to understand, not Maria and Porky Prince. All of them are content in life (dining off of plate or not) and I believe that they are glad enough that Russia is getting on it's feet and is a republic, not a monarchy. Many of them seem a lot happier than they would if the Romanovs were reigning.
 
Kremlin Throws Imperial Artifacts into Putin Conference Goodie Bag - Emerging Europe Real Time - WSJ ok this a lil werid didnt know where else to post it

More than 1,200 reporters accredited to Russian President Vladimir Putin‘s giant press conference Thursday each received a puzzling bag of gifts, with imperial overtones.
A huge wall calendar depicted the Russian czars of the Romanov dynasty, which would be celebrating their 400 years in power in 2013 if not for the 1917 revolution that saw the last czar and his family killed. The bag also had a set of post cards with all the Russian czars starting from the early 17th century.
The president’s press conference usually lasts several hours, with journalists asking mostly benign questions. It was expected at the Kremlin this year, but was moved to a conference hall on the banks of Moskva River due to a renovation.
Reporters will be able to take notes with three pencils with the event’s logo, nicely packed in a wooden box, also with the logo, in a notebook with the logo, together with pictures of the Romanovs in a large black box, also with the same memorable inscription.
A clipboard that came with the goodie bad says “Made in Poland,” the central European country with which Russia has had an uneasy relationship over the past centuries, recently marred with disputes over business, influence in Eastern Europe, 20th century history, and a crash in Russia of a Polish government jet, in which Poland’s President Lech Kaczynski died in 2010.
Last year Dmitry Medvedev, president of Russia at the time, held his press conference for about 800 reporters in his cherished Skolkovo, a government-funded technology hub and business school
 
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