Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts 2: 2022 -


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Welcome to the Savoy and Savoy-Aosta: Restoration, Succession, Heirs and Conflicts Thread, Part 2
Commencing December 29th, 2022 ​

The previous thread can be found here
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Duc_et_Pair said:
Maybe King Umberto very much thought Marina Doria was a mésalliance indeed but he did not act as Chef of the House of Savoy. There is no undoubted, signed and sealed decision with which the King declared, for once and for all, the union as undynastic, meaning that Prince Vittorio Emanuele has lost all his rights.
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There are actual letters, you can check them out on Eurohistory journal, some of those letters are from the last King telling him to not marry Marina Doria. You can check for yourself
 
SirGyamfi1 said:
There are actual letters, you can check them out on Eurohistory journal, some of those letters are from the last King telling him to not marry Marina Doria. You can check for yourself
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Yes, but that is no undoubted, signed, sealed decision with which King Umberto declared his son's union undynastic and therefore the Prince and his offspring were no successors anymore.

A correspondence in which the King showed his unhappiness with the union is not enough to say that Prince Vittorio Emanuele has ceased to be a dynast in the House of Savoy.
 
If I understand it correctly the Prince of Venice is apparently stepping back in favour of his daughter:

Nasce da qui l’idea di abdicare in favore della sua primogenita Vittoria di Savoia?
«Mi metterò da parte e farò passare avanti ancora una volta una donna, sono certo che farà meglio di me. È stato mio padre a prendere questa decisione che io trovo molto giusta e moderna. Tra poco, in Europa, ci saranno più regine che re. Lo stanno capendo tutti, anche se un po’ tardi, che l’intelligenza e la sensibilità delle donne al comando può essere meravigliosa. La Legge Salica è anacronistica, è depassè. Gli uomini non hanno nulla di più, semmai di meno».
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Translated by google:

Hence the idea of abdicating her in favor of her eldest daughter Vittoria di Savoia?
“I'll step aside and have a woman come forward once more, I'm sure she'll do better than me. It was my father who made this decision which I find very right and modern. Soon, in Europe, there will be more queens than kings. Everyone is realizing, albeit a little late, that the intelligence and sensitivity of women in charge can be wonderful. The Salic Law is anachronistic, it is depassé. Men have nothing more, if anything less».
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Full interview: https://torino.corriere.it/notizie/...ti-0f558e92-0d0e-496f-b838-67936cab9xlk.shtml
 
Is it certain he is doing this now?

Isn't Vittoria very, very young to be responsible for the family, should anything happen to her elderly and erratic grandfather?
 
I don't understand what's going on either...
 
Prinsara said:
Is it certain he is doing this now?

Isn't Vittoria very, very young to be responsible for the family, should anything happen to her elderly and erratic grandfather?
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He seems to be speaking in the future tense (perhaps an Italian speaker can confirm). And it would make sense that he is referring to the future, for several reasons: He himself is not yet the family head and so technically has nothing to abdicate from yet, Vittoria is still young, and seeing the family issued formal press releases to add Vittoria and her sister to the line of succession to the dynasty, I expect they will also do the same for any future changes.
 
SirGyamfi1 said:
I wasn’t being serious when I said “Vittorio Emanuele and his branch can do what he likes”, I was being facetious and sarcastic.
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Futurist said nothing deserving of facetiousness or sarcasm.
 
Tatiana Maria said:
Futurist said nothing deserving of facetiousness or sarcasm.
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But you were responding to me though? My last response was to you not Futurist. His position as (future) Head is disputed because of his non-dynastic marriage as well as his father’s. If there were no other branch other than the Savoys themselves, maybe Vittorio Emanuele’s position as Head wouldn’t be disputed. Also the succession of headship was deliberately changed because Vittorio Emanuele’s only son has no sons, if he had sons or at least one son, he wouldn’t be changing anything.
 
It all looks quite premature, to be honest. Emanuele Filiberto can speak out when he is the head of the House of Savoy.
 
Tatiana Maria said:
He seems to be speaking in the future tense (perhaps an Italian speaker can confirm). And it would make sense that he is referring to the future, for several reasons: He himself is not yet the family head and so technically has nothing to abdicate from yet, Vittoria is still young, and seeing the family issued formal press releases to add Vittoria and her sister to the line of succession to the dynasty, I expect they will also do the same for any future changes.
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I'm an Italian speaker, and Emanuele Filiberto is indeed speaking in the future tense when talking about "abdicating", but he then immediately switches to the past tense saying "it was my father's decision, a very fair and modern one", which makes his whole reasoning a bit confusing to me. He then talks about the Salic Law, (it is " outdated"in his opinion), so "his father's decision" might be a reference to the abolition of the salic law a few years ago, and not to Emanuele Filiberto's own possible "abdication", which is more likely to take place in the future, I agree
 
SirGyamfi1 said:
But you were responding to me though? My last response was to you not Futurist.
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It is good to hear that you were not directing it at Futurist. I will leave it to you to decide whether you wish to explain why my response deserved "facetiousness and sarcasm".

SirGyamfi1 said:
Also the succession of headship was deliberately changed because Vittorio Emanuele’s only son has no sons, if he had sons or at least one son, he wouldn’t be changing anything.
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Probably, but we don't know for certain what was in his mind. People sometimes do have genuine changes of heart.
 
Duc_et_Pair said:
It all looks quite premature, to be honest. Emanuele Filiberto can speak out when he is the head of the House of Savoy.
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It was only a minor comment in a lengthy interview, though. (Were there any other points of interest in the interview?)

Linda_26 said:
I'm an Italian speaker, and Emanuele Filiberto is indeed speaking in the future tense when talking about "abdicating", but he then immediately switches to the past tense saying "it was my father's decision, a very fair and modern one", which makes his whole reasoning a bit confusing to me. He then talks about the Salic Law, (it is " outdated"in his opinion), so "his father's decision" might be a reference to the abolition of the salic law a few years ago, and not to Emanuele Filiberto's own possible "abdication", which is more likely to take place in the future, I agree
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Thank you. I agree that from context, "my father's decision" almost certainly refers to the decision to lift the ban on women.
 
Emanuele Filiberto and his wife Clotilde have been open for quite a while about living in separate countries (she raised their daughters in Paris while he was working in Monaco and the United States), but he has said they are happy with the arrangement and their marriage.

https://www.purepeople.com/article/...a-femme-clotilde-courau-confidences_a419828/1

Perhaps that is another reason he would rather leave the job of representing the royal family's heritage to his daughter, if she is willing to move to Italy (but that is speculation, as I have not had time to read the full interview).
 
maria-olivia said:
A divorce with Clothilde will follow ... They are separated since more than 10 years.
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I don't know why but "they are going to divorce" is the first thing comes to my mind as well...... And I don't even know they are separated.
 
EF also says in the Telegraph: “It won’t be tomorrow or in one year, but when she is ready. It’s important that the younger generation have a chance to put new, modern ideas into practice."
 
Press release by H.R.H. Vittorio Emanuele of Savoy, Duke of Savoy.
Geneva on 9 June 2023
I followed with attention and with particular satisfaction what was rightly reported by the national newspaper "il Corriere della Sera" with the interview, which I shared, given by my son Emanuele Filiberto and subsequently taken up and relaunched by many national and foreign newspapers.

The media attention that this position has aroused demonstrates the great interest in the subject that I wanted to address three years ago: the abolition of the Salic law; the international attention that attracted the young figure of my granddaughter Vittoria confirms the goodness of my choice, that is to allow a woman to become the Head of my House tomorrow.

I greatly appreciated and support the words that my son used, for the love for Vittoria and for the delicacy of her gesture in addressing this issue, in explaining to the Italians my will with this historic decision.
The abolition of the Salic law, which respects my precise will, is certainly in step with the times, which I wanted and sought to emphasize the importance that the Women of the House of Savoy have always had over the centuries and that thanks to Vittoria will continue to have in future years.

My son's statements make me proud of him, because they confirm what we have done so far together, strengthen our choices, strengthen our ideas and weld our will.
What he said I consider absolutely a courageous choice, which I share and that does not surprise me, because I know perfectly well what he thinks and how he acts, I know what education he is giving to my granddaughter Vittoria and I know how both are united in the intentions and projects of our House.

A choice, that of my son Emanuele Filiberto, which will take place at the right time and desired by him, which will take place when my granddaughter is ready and prepared, which will give new impetus and vigor to my family.

For the moment absolutely nothing changes: we work daily together and always in close contact with each other, he supports me and I support him, everything is always agreed between us and I am absolutely happy with the results that my son gets, for the appreciation that his commitment arouses in people, for the love that Italians give him and for what he does with real heartfelt impulse towards those in need.

In these years my granddaughter Vittoria has grown, I have appreciated more and more the seriousness and maturity, sensitivity and attention to others demonstrated on several occasions, not least in her mission in the tormented Ukraine.
Your public and institutional commitments are slowly increasing and you are rigorously assuming your just responsibilities, before the House that I am increasingly called to represent before the Italians, to whom you owe respect and dedication.
I speak regularly and I am pleased to discuss with you on issues that are increasingly important from time to time and I appreciate more and more the seriousness and commitment, especially for your growing attention to the Dynastic Orders of my House, characterized today more than ever by the care for the social and for the "third sector", from help to the needy and concrete support during the last numerous natural disasters, especially in the beloved Emilia Romagna.

I am sure and sincerely convinced that my granddaughter Vittoria will become more and more a strong point of reference for the whole Royal House of Savoy, so I invite all of you to support her in her projects and ideas, in following her and helping her in the important path she is facing and that will see her in the future a safe protagonist.

Vittorio Emanuele.
Click to expand...
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=pfbid0REou24chAiwmAMnXsybwYdaGFyLN2baNdLCxsm7PPSQMTNrgf4NmKFAbitYZnZv1l&id=100044184772003
 
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It's interesting how vague the statement above is. He references the interview and choice without articulating what that choice that will at some unkown time in the future will be executed is.
 
Somebody said:
It's interesting how vague the statement above is. He references the interview and choice without articulating what that choice that will at some unkown time in the future will be executed is.
Click to expand...

What would you make of that?
 
In a hypothetical restoration of the monarchy, who would have the right to inherit the throne? The Savoy Family or the Savoy-Aosta Family?

22497222_DQGZu.png
 
Blog Real said:
In a hypothetical restoration of the monarchy, who would have the right to inherit the throne? The Savoy Family or the Savoy-Aosta Family?

22497222_DQGZu.png
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If we are to go by the old rules, it would be the Aosta branch. However, seeing as Italy is part of the EU, the old succession laws wouldn’t be looked upon favourably so it could be the main branch. However, the Savoys aren’t that well-liked and they were the only branch of the family that was banned from returning (well they returned, but they were allowed to do so if they pledged allegiance to the republic).
 
Beginning in the early 1960s, King Umberto II of Italy wrote a series of letters to his only son Vittorio Emanuele, Prince of Naples. The king also wrote to his wife Queen Marie José, so that the queen would be aware of the issues that their son was bringing to the forefront by his insistence on wedding a young woman without the consent of the Head of the Royal House (i.e. his father the King). In the correspondence, King Umberto made it clear that he could not, and would not, consent to the marriage of the Prince of Naples with an unequal spouse. The first object of Vittorio Emanuele's affection was Dominique Claudel, the granddaughter of French poet Paul Claudel (1868 - 1955). The prince and Dominique Claudel were in a relationship between 1958 - 1962.

On 24 January 1960, King Umberto II sent a very brief note to his wife Queen Marie José. The English-translation of the text reads as follows:
D. J. [Dear José,]
Vigliano and Prunas are taking my letter to Vittorio. As agreed I am enclosing a copy for you.
I am sure that you will make Vittorio understand the importance of this letter!
Affectionately yours,
Nice, 24 - I - ‘60
U.
P.S. If I can, I would like to return to Courchevel at the end of February. I hope to find Vittorio there too.
U.
Click to expand...

Source: 24 Gennaio 1960. Lettera accompagnatoria di Umberto II alla regina Maria José

The king was attempting to solicit the queen's support in guaranteeing that their son took to heart the contents of the letter that the king had written to the Prince of Naples, Umberto and Marie José's only son, on 25 January 1960.

The letter of 25 January 1960 concerned Vittorio Emauele's attachment with Dominique Claudel. Umberto made it clear that he would not grant his consent for the Prince of Naples to contract a dynastic marriage with Mademoiselle Claudel. In no uncertain terms, King Umberto told Prince Vittorio Emanuele that should the Prince of Naples forsake his duty, and contract a marriage without the sovereign's approval, then the king would inform all European sovereigns and Heads of House that Prince Amedeo, Duke of Aosta, would be next in the line of succession after the King. The following is the English-translation text of the letter:

Cascais, 25 January 1960
Dear Vittorio,

As I told you last November in Cascais, and now that there has more and more talk in the last few days (leaped upon by the Italian and foreign press) of the likelihood of your marriage to Miss Dominique Claudel (rumours which can cause considerable damage to you, to me and to the entire family), I am writing to you to make perfectly sure that you are aware of the situation you would find yourself in if you were to marry Miss Claudel.
A situation which involves the laws of our House, in force for 29 generations and respected by 43 Heads of the Family, my predecessors, who have all succeeded in accordance with the Salic law through marriages contracted with the families of Sovereigns. As the 44th Head of the Family I have no intention, any more than I have the right, to change the law in spite of my affection for you. But even if I were to fail in my duty and proceed, it would be completely useless since nobody would be prepared to recognize the validity of my attempt.
As a consequence of your marriage to Miss Claudel you would be deprived of any right to succeed as Head of the House of Savoy and as pretender to the throne of Italy, losing your titles and rank and finding yourself reduced to the condition of a private citizen.
In so doing all your rights would immediately pass to my nephew, Amedeo the Duke of Aosta.
Such an irrevocable decision, which I would be forced to make with firmness and with pain, I would communicate to each and every member of our House, and to all the Sovereigns and Heads of the Royal families. It would likewise be made known to the Italians, especially in regard to the forfeiture of your present title of Prince of Naples.
In view of the affection I have for you and care for your happiness, I should like to hope that you will give your attention to the serious decisions of life, and particularly those which are definitive, since for me and for the religious traditions of our House matrimony is an indissoluble sacrament. Therefore the decision you make today will either open or close your prospects of succession to every right I possess.
An affectionate embrace,

Your Papa
P.S.: Since you aware of all the elements for the decision you take, I would like you to be quite clear about what the consequences will be regarding your material inheritance; any consideration of a material character must of course come second to those of a moral character:

I. By changing my present will my legacy will eventually be divided into equal parts between you and your sisters, since there would no longer be any reason for special treatment in your favour;

II. The same obviously applies to any other source of income which through heredity, donation or any other cause of which you might in due course come into possession;

III. Persons who have arranged to make you their sole heir as my successor have already communicated to me that they immediately intend to revoke their decision;

IV. The Italian friends who have helped me over these difficult years have already given me to understand, quite firmly too, though in a respectful form, that they would suspend any further transfer, and this would probably compel me to reduce your monthly cheque. Not to mention the serious damage this decision of our Italian friends would mean for your sisters.

V. At the same time the eventual rights that I am entitled to as Head of the House, obviously could not be passed on to you.

Read and confirmed
Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia
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Source: 25 Gennaio 1960. Lettera di Umberto II al figlio Vittorio Emanuele

The Prince of Naples responded to King Umberto's letter on 15 April 1960 - three months after it was received. Vittorio Emanuele's letter to his father read as follows:

Dear Papa,
I can hardly fail to recognize the scrupulousness with which you have so patiently and carefully explained the situation in which I would find myself if I should decide to renounce my prerogatives and marry a woman – whoever she might be – who is not of royal blood. Day by day the situation becomes clearer to me on the moral side as well as the strictly dynastic issue. Also the consequences as regards inheritance are now becoming more and more apparent. I can only acknowledge your scrupulous attitude and thank you with all my heart. Now it is my turn to review the question, to meditate and come to a decision.
I would also like to take the opportunity to thank you for your offer of a chance to take my mind of these matters, such as the trip to Africa, and perhaps to Argentina. But as I have already told you I want first to try another way, by becoming a “broker”.
As soon as I have the concrete elements in hand, i.e. after the discussions in Geneva with Merryl Lynch & Co. I shall let you know how it turns out.
Cascais, 15 April 1960.
Vittorio Emanuele
P.S. Please excuse this typewritten letter, but as you know my hand is still in plaster.
Click to expand...

Source: 15 Aprile 1960. Risposta di Vittorio Emanuele alla lettera del padre

Subsequent missives from the king to his son concerned Vittorio Emanuele's romance with Marina Doria (b.1935). The king stressed on several occasions that his consent would be impossible to give due to the fact that Marina was not of equal rank to Vittorio Emanuele. Furthermore, Umberto noted that he believed he would be in violation of the laws governing the succession of the Royal House of Savoy if he did consent (even if he was personally inclined to do so, which he was not) to the Prince of Naples marrying Marina Doria.

In July 1963, Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia and Marina Doria gave an interview to the Italian magazine Oggi. In the article, the couple discussed their plans to marry. When word of this interview reached King Umberto in Portugal, he sent his son the following letter:

Dear Vittorio!
I just came across your interview in “Oggi”: If this truly represents your state of mind – and I must ask you to let me know as soon as possible with the utmost clarity – the thing I particularly regret is that you felt no need to talk or write to me beforehand, since parts of the matters in discussion directly concern me.
While I am expecting a letter from you about your matrimonial projects, I can only repeat word for word what I wrote to you 23 January 1960 concerning a similar situation.
As you very well know I am solely motivated by my affection for you and my desire to assure for you the best of futures, but one which can never contrast with the way we have always done things in our family.
I embrace you
Cascais, 18 July 1963.
Your Papa
Second copy of the letter, to be returned to me signed on receipt
[handwritten by Vittorio Emanuele]
25-VII (?)-63
Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia
Note: The interview does not correspond to what I think.
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Source: 18 Luglio 1963. Lettera di Umberto II al figlio in merito all'articolo pubblicato da "Oggi".
 
In an attempt to overcome his father's opposition to his desired marriage, Vittorio Emanuele proclaimed himself "King of Italy" as "Re Vittorio Emanuele IV" on 15 December 1969. The Prince of Naples thus attempted to dethrone his own father, His Majesty King Umberto II.

15-12-69
Vittorio Emanuele IV
King of Italy
With the affection of a son but the loyalty of a king, having reached the legal age of majority, and therefore maturity of intellect and heart, by Our serious knowledge and will, upon the advice of Our council, we have formulated the following principles for safeguarding the nation and the Dynasty:
Art. 1 – The Statute of the Kingdom, sanctioned and issued under the law n. 674 on 4 March 1848 by Our magnanimous forebear, Carlo Alberto, was extended to all the States of the Kingdom of Sardinia and became the fundamental Statute of the Kingdom of Italy with the law of 21 April 1867 no. 1.
Art. 2 – The laws of 27 July 1860, 17 August 1867, 11 April 1870 and 11 May 1871, sanction a xxx [meaning] to Act. 1 of the Statute which accomplished the entire freedom of the Italian State x from any interference on the part of the Church.
Art. 3 – Nothing, however, had ever been added to the Statute to question its "perpetual and irrevocable" character, when on 25 June 1944 – in the reign of Our magnanimous forebear, Vittorio Emanuele III – the Lieutenant General of the Kingdom, with his own Edict n. 151, instituted a constituent assembly to discuss "the new State constitution."
With another Edict law of 16 March 1946 n. 28 the Lieutenant established that the monarchical- representative form of the State government would be submitted to a "referendum of the people" which was carried by a simple majority of the votes, and was thus replaced by a republican form. Hence the Statute was not legitimately abrogated but xxxxxstatly violated and consequently it remains to this day "the fundamental, perpetual and irrevocable law of the monarchy."
Art. 4 - Acts which Our beloved and for me x xxx Fxxx Ma [?] later performed, being King of Italy, such as the dissolution from the oath of loyalty to His Person by the Royal Armed Forces; the consequent succession of His powers on the part of the government which He himself considered rebellious, as well as using irregular practices in scrutiny; and His departure – to all appearances voluntary – from the national territory on the conclusion of the Farewell military ceremony held for the event, constitute an unquestionable abdication from the Throne.
Art. 5 – Under article 2 of the Statute "ipso pure" we would succeed Him in his condition as virtual Sovereign of the Kingdom of Italy and as sole legitimate pretender to the Throne.
Art. 6 – This succession having taken effect, we are also entitled to assume the right of legitimate Head of the Savoy Dynasty, and such rights as we shall exercise from this time forth, tempered only by the discretion that the physical and moral state of His Majesty, the ex-King Umberto II advises Our conscience as son.
Signed in Geneva, on the 15 of the month of December of the year 1969.
Royal Edict n. 1
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Source: Allegato 2

The day after he "dethroned" his father, on 16 December 1969, Vittorio Emanuele of Savoy issued a "royal decree" in which he conferred upon his fiancée Marina Ricolfi Doria the title of Duchess of Sant'Anna di Valdieri. Vittorio Emanuele took this action so that his intended, Marina Doria, would be considered an "equal bride" if he married her. The second royal degree of "Il Re Vittorio Emanuele IV" can be read below:

We
Vittorio Emanuele IV, King of Italy
By virtue of art. 79 of the Statute of the Kingdom
Decree:
Single article.
Upon Marina Doria Ricolfi the title of Duchessa di S. Anna di Valdieri has been conferred.
Signed in Geneva On the 16 December in the year 1969
Royal Edict n. 2
Vittorio Emanuele di Savoia [entirely written by hand]
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Source: Allegato 1
 
Thank you very much for posting the primary documents.

Interesting that as of 1969 Vittorio Emanuele still believed the republican state of Italy and its laws were illegitimate (while deeming his father's dethronement to be legitimate, which seems contradictory on its face), which he has since had a change of heart on.

It seems his and his supporters' primary counterargument is that Umberto II's position allegedly evolved since the 1960s, since Umberto II never explicitly "communicate[d] to each and every member of our House, and to all the Sovereigns and Heads of the Royal families. It would likewise be made known to the Italians" his son's "losing your titles and rank and finding yourself reduced to the condition of a private citizen" upon his unequal marriage, as he had promised to do in the 1960s. Did he at least follow through on his promise to reduce Vittorio Emanuele's monetary inheritance to a share equal to his sisters?

I presume the Aostas and their supporters continue to stand by the interpretation of the family laws expressed by Umberto II in his 1960 letter (whether Umberto himself resiled from this view or not). If so, that is interesting because it means they require marriages to not only be approved by the family head, but also equal (with members of sovereign families, which presumably includes ex-sovereign families), in order for dynastic rights to be conserved, which considerably limits the choice of wife for Aimone's sons.
 
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