Monarchy and Restoration; Rival Families and Claimants

[Ceallach]

Maria would be regarded by the Gotha, the church and most. Certain family members disagree, and the government has to a certain extend let both sides act regal in Russia. The disagreement was focused on there still being male dynasts alive when she was proclaimed although since none could pass the throne to morgantic heirs it was a temporary arguement. They also questioned her parents and grandparents marriages but there is evidence that disputes their claims on the first and the recognition of her nephew and his son David as would-be kings by the Georgian government damages their second claim. The one being propsed as an alternative is definately the product of a morgantic marriage and the differerence now is more just personal - a battle of personalities. Maria could probably ease the differences by giving them some sort of recognition and being more respectful; and vice versa. If it can be worked out, then she can show up at their ball and they can treat her like a Tsarina. If it can't be worked out cause there is too much bad blood, then they can opt for Georgi and Maria can have a role as mother.

The other issue this all hinges on is who Georgi marries. He needs to find a bride that is acceptable to Pauline laws and the Russian people. They can't restore the monarchy til they first know it has a future. Georgi may need to have a wife or fiancee first.

 

[dvoynik_nikolay]

Maria would be regarded by the Gotha, the church and most. Certain family members disagree, and the government has to a certain extend let both sides act regal in Russia. The disagreement was focused on there still being male dynasts alive when she was proclaimed although since none could pass the throne to morgantic heirs it was a temporary arguement. They also questioned her parents and grandparents marriages but there is evidence that disputes their claims on the first and the recognition of her nephew and his son David as would-be kings by the Georgian government damages their second claim. The one being propsed as an alternative is definately the product of a morgantic marriage and the differerence now is more just personal - a battle of personalities. Maria could probably ease the differences by giving them some sort of recognition and being more respectful; and vice versa. If it can be worked out, then she can show up at their ball and they can treat her like a Tsarina. If it can't be worked out cause there is too much bad blood, then they can opt for Georgi and Maria can have a role as mother.

The other issue this all hinges on is who Georgi marries. He needs to find a bride that is acceptable to Pauline laws and the Russian people. They can't restore the monarchy til they first know it has a future. Georgi may need to have a wife or fiancee first.

What about the rejection of the throne by Kirill Vladimirovich:

"On the rights of our own and in particular, and on my succession, I ardently love their country, fully subscribe to those thoughts that are expressed in the act of refusal of the Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich.
Grand Duke Kirill Vladimirovich."

 

[Ceallach]

Duress - doing what you must to sane one's self and family - it counts no more than the forced abdication of King Michael of Romania and no one is disputing his claim.

In a hereditary monarchy you can't exclude someone and their family cause you dislike them.

Plus if you exclude Maria and Georgi and say there are no dynasts left - then what about the Leiningens and Prussias. Did Maria and Kira give up their claims when they married? One can't be heir to Leiningen/Prussia and Russia - but next after Georgi would be Cecelia, who is not the heir, since women would be included under Russia but not Leiningen.

 

[NGalitzine]

If in a bizarre twist of fate Russia ever decided they wanted a monarchy again why not let them elect whomever they chose to be the new monarch and founder of the new reigning dynasty. If a Romanov was elected that would no away with all the disputed claims within the family, and if they selected somene lese well that how democracy works.

 

[Ceallach]

I am very proud that I am a Romanov | New Style Magazine (english version)

Nicholas says they could not support him cause of what he had done not that he was not the hereditary heir, and since they did not recognize him they do not recognize the title of Grand Duke he bestowed on his son Vladimir.

Nicholas now seems to making more of a claim that once there are no male dynasts it reverts from Pauline to Salic before it starts to include women. He thanks god that under salic law Maria is excluded (personality rift). But it is my understanding it reverts under Pauline law to allow women after there are no mal dynasts. So if is within Pauline law this happens how can it revert to Salic first.

"By doing this, Paul insisted on semi-Salic order of succession, in effect excluding women from the line of succession to the Russian Throne. Passing of the throne to the female line was only allowed in the absence of legitimately-born male dynasts."

Also if had been the case that he is right - then why does he call himself the head of the Romanov dynasty - wouldn't it then be under salic law Dimitri Romanovsky-Ilyinsky?

At the same time others are promting as heir Rostilav whose claim is greater through the female line and proximity to Nicholas.

They change their arguments, go back on their arguments, and they don't make sense to me. It is just about tring to exclude Maria somehow.

It seems to be a dispute of personalities btween Kirill and his relaives and that the hostility has been passed on through generations on both sides. They do not want Maria to be Tsarina and they just come up with excuses to try to exclude instead of just coming out and saying we hate Maria. Yet they hate Maria not because there is a problem with Maria - but because they have been raised to hate her and her family through generations and vice versa.

It may come down to a romanov getting either elected or creating a cult of personality around themself in Russia. None right now have that much of a presence and they generally don't live there. I can only see either Maria, Georgi, or maybe Rostilav try to do that right now.

 

[NGalitzine]

I have a hard time envisioning a cult of personality developing around Miria. She would need one hell of a good PR agent.

 

[branchg]

I am very proud that I am a Romanov | New Style Magazine (english version)

Nicholas says they could not support him cause of what he had done not that he was not the hereditary heir, and since they did not recognize him they do not recognize the title of Grand Duke he bestowed on his son Vladimir.

Nicholas now seems to making more of a claim that once there are no male dynasts it reverts from Pauline to Salic before it starts to include women. He thanks god that under salic law Maria is excluded (personality rift). But it is my understanding it reverts under Pauline law to allow women after there are no mal dynasts. So if is within Pauline law this happens how can it revert to Salic first.

"By doing this, Paul insisted on semi-Salic order of succession, in effect excluding women from the line of succession to the Russian Throne. Passing of the throne to the female line was only allowed in the absence of legitimately-born male dynasts."

Also if had been the case that he is right - then why does he call himself the head of the Romanov dynasty - wouldn't it then be under salic law Dimitri Romanovsky-Ilyinsky?

At the same time others are promting as heir Rostilav whose claim is greater through the female line and proximity to Nicholas.

They change their arguments, go back on their arguments, and they don't make sense to me. It is just about tring to exclude Maria somehow.

It seems to be a dispute of personalities btween Kirill and his relaives and that the hostility has been passed on through generations on both sides. They do not want Maria to be Tsarina and they just come up with excuses to try to exclude instead of just coming out and saying we hate Maria. Yet they hate Maria not because there is a problem with Maria - but because they have been raised to hate her and her family through generations and vice versa.

Nicholas' comments in the article were discussed in another thread, but the bottom line is his interpretation of the Pauline Laws is nonsense. He has consistently stated that Princes of the Blood were not bound to marry equally (which is true), but Grand Dukes of Russia were (also true).

As such, since there are no Grand Dukes surviving, his position is Princes of the Blood who married unequally since the Revolution could pass their succession rights to morganauts, which is incorrect. The Laws are clear the issue of such marriages had no rights to the throne whatsoever.

 

[NGalitzine]

I think there are enough flaws in all their claims to say that under strict interpretation of the Pauline laws no candidate has a perfect claim to the throne.

 

[branchg]

Absolutely. In reality, they are all morganatic under the Laws.

 

[Ceallach]

I think there are enough flaws in all their claims to say that under strict interpretation of the Pauline laws no candidate has a perfect claim to the throne.

I said she might try - did not say it would succeed.

 

[branchg]

I said she might try - did not say it would succeed.

Well, Maria can try (and has been trying for years) but the reality is her status at birth is no better than anyone else who is also the issue from a marriage of a male dynast and a Russian noble female. Given equality on that point, Nicholas Romanovich takes precedence as a male (Dimitri Illinsky has acknowledged his cousin as head of the family).

However, Maria's father was the undisputed Head of the Imperial House at the time of his marriage and declared his wife to be equal. Since the Tsar was the sole arbitrator of whether any marriage was acceptable or not, she does have an edge there. She also married equally to HRH Prince Franz-Wilhelm of Prussia, which her cousins have not.

In my opinion, she is the rightful Head of the Imperial House as her father's successor, but anyone could be called to the throne in the future if there is a restoration.

 

[Ceallach]

Leonida's family has been recognized as the royal family of Georgia and rightful heirs of the Georgian royals who once ruled Georgia by Georgia. It is a situation more compariable to Montenegro than the Russian nobles who consider themselves Russian nobles not royals of another country.

Is it just because Leonida was born when Georgia was under Russia? Russia overtook Georgia and now it is free yet Nicholas still won't recognize it as a seprate place with it's own royal family.

Does he recognize Nicholas of Montenegro, his relative, as would-be king of Montenegro like Montenegro does and even Alexander of Serbia seems to too (They seemed quite friendly at Michael of Romania's birthday party). Or else does he not recognize him since when his parents were married and he was born Montenegro was under rule of the King of Serbia. Does he recognize Alexander as the rightful king of Montenegro instead? Or does he have a double standard for Maria vs Nicholas of Montenegro.

He talks proudly of his Montenegran grandmother and does not hide his roots. He does not seem to think the fact that his grand mother's royal family was overthrown and her country was under the power of the King of another country when he was born affects his status but he passes that judgement on Maria because her mother's family's status.

I do not see how in his eyes he and the others with Montengran roots justify this.

Maria's parents marriage was not morgantic and she is as rightful an heir to Russia and Nicholas is to Montenegro.

 

[Ceallach]

Yes, I suppose you are right about there being no monarch of Russia, Romanov or other, Countess. Maria V. still claims the 'dynasty' will be under the rule of her son, 'Tsarevich' Georgi. Are there any descendants of Cleopatra around any more, I wonder?

The last monarch was in 1955 and there is an unquestioned pretender to Egypt.

 

[COUNTESS]

You can dig up any old monarchy and find a couple of folks who think they will be restored to some position, hopefully. This is thw 21st century, so I think they should lead their lives as best they can and look for day jobs.

 

[AristoCat]

Perhaps if Maria were not so hostile and didn't make herself out to be the only Romanov left, plus her pork-pie son, just maybe the rest of the Romanovs would be willing to come to some agreement. As for a restoration, that would be something the RUSSIANS would have to decide on, not the Duma, Kremlin, or President, Prime Minister, or any other Romanov. Then there would have to be a choice as to who and it would have ot be honored.

 

[branchg]

Perhaps if Maria were not so hostile and didn't make herself out to be the only Romanov left, plus her pork-pie son, just maybe the rest of the Romanovs would be willing to come to some agreement. As for a restoration, that would be something the RUSSIANS would have to decide on, not the Duma, Kremlin, or President, Prime Minister, or any other Romanov. Then there would have to be a choice as to who and it would have ot be honored.

An agreement on what? There is nothing for the two sides to agree upon since they are so far apart on the fundamental question of the Pauline Laws that there is no possibility of reconciliation.

The reality is both sides are wrong. With Vladimir's death in 1992, the direct male-lines of the family went extinct of dynasts since they are ALL morganatic. The Romanov-Holstein-Gottorp dynasty is now in the dustbin of history.

The question is which female line would the throne pass (Alexander II or Nicholas II) since the Pauline Law states the rights pass through the female line of the last reigning Emperor when the male lines are all defunct.

Since Nicholas' sisters have no dynastic descendants, the rights are through Princess Olga of Greece & Denmark's marriage to Prince Paul of Yugoslavia, or Vladimir's sisters, who both married equally.

Alternatively, the throne, if ever restored, could be offered to anyone chosen by the Russian people or Government. There is no law or obligation to the Romanovs, who abdicated their rights in 1917.

 

[AristoCat]

Alternatively, the throne, if ever restored, could be offered to anyone chosen by the Russian people or Government. There is no law or obligation to the Romanovs, who abdicated their rights in 1917

I know that, that is why I said it would be up to the RUSSIANS, not any Romanov.

 

[Ceallach]

The Caputo Family Association apparently recognizes her:
Pretenders to the Throne -

She is not only recognized by the Almanach de Gotha - she is one of the officers.



THE OFFICERS OF THE ALMANACH DE SAXE GOTHA
_____________________________________________________


Honoury Société President of The Almanach de Gotha
His Majesty King Juan Carlos I of Spain

Honoury Chairman of The Almanach de Gotha
His Majesty King Michael I of Romania

Honoury Deputy Chairmen of The Almanach de Gotha
Her Imperial Highness
Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia
de jure Empress and Autocrat of All the Russias

 

[Benedict XVI]

Heir to the throne

Which branch of the Romanov family have the better chances at getting the crown.

 

[Benedict XVI]

If Russia decided to become a monarchy again would the people restore the Romanovs back on the throne or would they rather begin a whole new Dynasty.

 

[branchg]

I think it's highly unlikely the Romanovs would ever be restored to the throne. Their history is too controversial and blood-stained and the strong Communist legacy in Russia would be adamantly opposed.

It would be a new dynasty.

 

[branchg]

Which branch of the Romanov family have the better chances at getting the crown.

Many threads already on this question. The bottom line is none of them have a realistic chance or a claim. The dynasty is now defunct of dynasts in the male-line.

 

[Grandduchess24]

The person who carries the bloodline closest to the last czar should have the crown but a forum was already started on her.

 

[Benedict XVI]

And you are probably right the Romanovs argue to much about who is the rightful heir. I think that it would show that Russia has closed the soviet era and is beginning a new. But if they decided to restore the monarchy wouldn't the Romanovs get to present there case to the russian people.

 

[Kasumi]

Which branch of the Romanov family have the better chances at getting the crown.

None.
If there will be any constitutional monarchy established (not during our lifetime ), there will be whole new dynasty elected during plebiscite in Russia.

 

[branchg]

And you are probably right the Romanovs argue to much about who is the rightful heir. I think that it would show that Russia has closed the soviet era and is beginning a new. But if they decided to restore the monarchy wouldn't the Romanovs get to present there case to the russian people.

Well, I don't think the present system of government in Russia is interested in letting "the people" have a true say in who is elected to office, so the question is rather moot in my opinion.

There is little chance of restoration unless someone (i.e. Putin) decides the monarchy would be a useful tool in controlling the image of the State. In that case, the powers that be would decide who they could control best in deciding who will sit on a throne.

It could be a Romanov, or another royal house or a non-royal.

 

[Benedict XVI]

Are you sure it won't be in our life time? In the next 20 years almost all the leaders from the Soviet Union that have stayed in power in the new regime will be dead or retired. Also by then a big group of the communist party will be dead and replaced with the newer generation of democrats. The democrats usually are a lot more supportive of a monarchy especially with the milestone that will be coming in the next 10 years like the 400th anniversary and the 100th anniversary of there brutal death of the Imperial family. I am a young person so I expect it to happen in my lifetime.

 

[branchg]

I think a constitutional reform of Russia's government and the installation of real democracy is necessary first. Otherwise, the monarchy would become a symbol of state control, very much like in the past, and eventually hated again by the Russian people.

The average Russian cares little about monarchy and more about democracy and ending corruption.

 

[Benedict XVI]

Which I believe as soon as they can get rid of people like Putin that will help a lot and as long as he stays in power there will be corruption. But I think they need to find the right president who will end corruption and bring forth a real democracy In Russia. But as long as there is corruption they will hate this government just as much as a monarchy. I think in my lifetime I will see an end to this regime in Russia.

 

[Benedict XVI]

Ya that makes sense to me. If it ware truly up to the people would they call for a Zemsky Sobor? I think they need to put a limit on terms in Russia that would get rid of all the corruption they have. But as long as it is up to Putin or any former soviet there will be hardly any chance for a monarchy.