Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Iluvbertie]

I teach at a CoE school here in Australia. We run confirmation classes for 6 weeks in Term 3 (August - September) over lunchtimes for any student who is interested - we used to do it after school and weren't getting any takers but with it at lunchtime - once a week for six weeks we get about a dozen a year. They will then be confirmed in a service at the end of Week 6 Term 3 - so six 30 minutes sessions to prepare for confirmation. They do have to be baptised before being confirmed and quite a few get baptised at 9.00 a.m. and then confirmed at the 10.00 a.m. service so both on the same day.

It certainly doesn't take six months of classes or instruction - a few weeks at most.

 

[Gaudete]

Preparation for confirmation is usually only a brief course. Baptism is a little different and the average for most Christian denominations that are sacramental churches is around 6 months, at least here in the UK. Having said that, I know of some Catholic Churches which spread their RCIA course to a full year and there’s a Russian Orthodox Cathedral in London which sets a period of two years (!).

The average for “high Church” Anglicans in the UK however is around six months if a person is to be baptised and confirmed as an adult. It’s felt that this gives a person enough time to contemplate their decision but also to see both major festivals in the liturgical year - Christmas and Easter. This is also true of the majority of Catholic and Orthodox churches who offer reception classes.

 

[cepe]

Preparation for confirmation is usually only a brief course. Baptism is a little different and the average for most Christian denominations that are sacramental churches is around 6 months, at least here in the UK. Having said that, I know of some Catholic Churches which spread their RCIA course to a full year and there’s a Russian Orthodox Cathedral in London which sets a period of two years (!).

The average for “high Church” Anglicans in the UK however is around six months if a person is to be baptised and confirmed as an adult. It’s felt that this gives a person enough time to contemplate their decision but also to see both major festivals in the liturgical year - Christmas and Easter. This is also true of the majority of Catholic and Orthodox churches who offer reception classes.

"practical hat on" - I would guess that six months is 1-2 hours a week.
Young people are at school/college and adults prob working. But that's 26-52 hours. Meghan could reduce the lapsed time considerably.

Is 1-2 hrs a week a fair assessment?

 

[Gaudete]

Usually yes. Most likely, Meghan will have weekly meetings for around an hour or two from now until Easter with the priest who will perform her baptism/confirmation. This isn’t a strict rule however and it could be that she’ll receive instruction from a local priest but a senior priest or Bishop will actually baptism and confirm her.

 

[royal rob]

I think she will have a few meetings but nothing like 2 hours a week. Maybe 3 or 4 meetings full up let’s face it she isn’t religious. She’s doing it because she is marrying Harry and it makes things easier.

 

[Pranter]

I don't think we know enough details to say she's converting just to marry Harry.


LaRae

 

[O-H Anglophile]

Some people have strong spiritual beliefs without formally belonging to a certain church. We can't know all the reasons Meghan is joining the church--marrying Harry is probably a contributing factor, like marriage is is for many people.

 

[Cocoasneeze]

I think she will have a few meetings but nothing like 2 hours a week. Maybe 3 or 4 meetings full up let’s face it she isn’t religious. She’s doing it because she is marrying Harry and it makes things easier.

How do you know this? Anything to back it up? None of us know anything of her personal religious beliefs, we simply cant make assumptions like that.

 

[ACO]

What are the chances of The Queen changing the letters again to allow Harry's kid to be born as Prince/Princess like she did for Charlotte and #3? I know once she pass they will automatically get the titles but I hope she lives to be 100+ like her mother. Haha.

Not that I think Harry or Meghan will care. In fact they probably don't.

Also how does that effect them their kids if Meghan births them if she is still in transition to becomes officially a British citizen? Will they speed it up or does she wait the entire 5 years. I suspect they will have at least two kids in that time frame.

 

[Zaira]

I honestly do not expect their children will get the prince/princess title until Charles, and even then I expect they will go the route of Edward and Sophie and prefer their children to be styled as "lord" and "lady."

 

[Countessmeout]

I think she will have a few meetings but nothing like 2 hours a week. Maybe 3 or 4 meetings full up let’s face it she isn’t religious. She’s doing it because she is marrying Harry and it makes things easier.

Lets face it....you don't know any more about her then you know about what the man across the street is thinking. So stop claiming you know FACT.

The archbishop has spoken to her, to both of the couple. And has said he sees true commitment to faith in her.

Reality is religion is a personal choice. Some of us have no choice if we are religious growing up, or the opposite. If my grandparents would have not disowned us if my parents hadn't baptized us, we'd never have been. We never went to church without them. We were never communion, confession, confirmation. The only reason I had any religious background was because I went to Catholic school, not out of faith but because it was the best school when we moved. I MADE the choice as an adult to commit myself to going to church and being more religious. Not much younger then Meghan is now. Some adults raised in the faith turn back on it. Some not raised in it, choose to pursue it.

You're right, she probably doesn't need many meetings. Because as you constantly over look, she isn't some unreligious atheist. She does have a Christian background whether baptized or not. She was raised in an Episcopalian house (dad) even if not baptized. She went to catholic school where she would have attended mass and gone to religion class. She isn't coming at this without any basis for it.

She didn't need to be baptized to marry Harry. Simply attend church with the family on holidays and raise her kids Anglican. She CHOSE to.

 

[Ish]

What are the chances of The Queen changing the letters again to allow Harry's kid to be born as Prince/Princess like she did for Charlotte and #3? I know once she pass they will automatically get the titles but I hope she lives to be 100+ like her mother. Haha.

Not that I think Harry or Meghan will care. In fact they probably don't.

Also how does that effect them their kids if Meghan births them if she is still in transition to becomes officially a British citizen? Will they speed it up or does she wait the entire 5 years. I suspect they will have at least two kids in that time frame.

This is off topic for this thread (perhaps the mods can move it to the titles thread?), but I think if the Queen does so it will depend on 2 things:

1. Charles’ commitment to the idea of scaling down the monarchy; if it’s true that he wants to make the monarchy smaller going forward, he may be against changing the LPs to make all his grandchildren royals, and

2. Whether or not Harry and Meghan want their children to ever be royals; it might be their desire to follow the example lead by the Wessexes, and have their children styled as the children of a Duke, and not as royals themselves.

I can see pros and cons in both cases, but I think ultimately it’ll depend on how the monarchy is going to be structured in the future, and the role that Harry and Meghan (and Charles and William) want for their children in that future.

As to her citizenship... there are so many variables that I think it might be too soon to tell. It’s not clear now if Meghan wants to give up her US citizenship down the line or not, nor is it clear how much backlash they’ll face if she doesn’t give up her citizenship. To me, I think they’re playing it safe by starting out following the proper procedures; better to start out doing so and only expedite things when it becomes necessary to do so - as the taxes or the citizenship of their children actually becomes an issue.

 

[Alliec76]

What are the chances of The Queen changing the letters again to allow Harry's kid to be born as Prince/Princess like she did for Charlotte and #3? I know once she pass they will automatically get the titles but I hope she lives to be 100+ like her mother. Haha.

Not that I think Harry or Meghan will care. In fact they probably don't.

Also how does that effect them their kids if Meghan births them if she is still in transition to becomes officially a British citizen? Will they speed it up or does she wait the entire 5 years. I suspect they will have at least two kids in that time frame.

I kind of feel like they are going to have to stick to whatever their decision is. Either she gets a sped up British Citizenship, or she goes about citizenship in the normal time frame. They announced that she was pursuing British Citizenship and would be following normal protocol. Now they could change that, but I think that might invite backlash. It would have just been easier to say upfront, that Meghan is a special/unique case so her process would be expedited. Just get the uproar out of the way. They didn't. So that leads me to believe they've thought through all the implications and they are serious about her going about citizenship the regular way. I just don't believe they haven't thought this through.But there are a lot of moving parts so things could change.

What we do know is she can't give up her US citizenship, until she is a British citizen, because a person can't be stateless. So if her American Citizenship becomes some huge problem, the only way to fix it, is to make her a British Citizen.

 

[ACO]

This is off topic for this thread (perhaps the mods can move it to the titles thread?), but I think if the Queen does so it will depend on 2 things:

1. Charles’ commitment to the idea of scaling down the monarchy; if it’s true that he wants to make the monarchy smaller going forward, he may be against changing the LPs to make all his grandchildren royals, and

2. Whether or not Harry and Meghan want their children to ever be royals; it might be their desire to follow the example lead by the Wessexes, and have their children styled as the children of a Duke, and not as royals themselves.

I can see pros and cons in both cases, but I think ultimately it’ll depend on how the monarchy is going to be structured in the future, and the role that Harry and Meghan (and Charles and William) want for their children in that future.

As to her citizenship... there are so many variables that I think it might be too soon to tell. It’s not clear now if Meghan wants to give up her US citizenship down the line or not, nor is it clear how much backlash they’ll face if she doesn’t give up her citizenship. To me, I think they’re playing it safe by starting out following the proper procedures; better to start out doing so and only expedite things when it becomes necessary to do so - as the taxes or the citizenship of their children actually becomes an issue.

Thank you. Sorry it was in the wrong thread. Apologies.

As for Meghan, I can't imagine she stays a US citizen. I think that is more hassle than it is worth overall especially where taxes are concerned. I just wonder more how it affects their future children because seems it will be a good chance they will be dual citizens if the plan is to have her go the normal route like everyone else which honestly surprises me.

 

[Ish]

Thank you. Sorry it was in the wrong thread. Apologies.

As for Meghan, I can't imagine she stays a US citizen. I think that is more hassle than it is worth overall especially where taxes are concerned. I just wonder more how it affects their future children because seems it will be a good chance they will be dual citizens if the plan is to have her go the normal route like everyone else which honestly surprises me.

I kind of feel like they are going to have to stick to whatever their decision is. Either she gets a sped up British Citizenship, or she goes about citizenship in the normal time frame. They announced that she was pursuing British Citizenship and would be following normal protocol. Now they could change that, but I think that might invite backlash. It would have just been easier to say upfront, that Meghan is a special/unique case so her process would be expedited. Just get the uproar out of the way. They didn't. So that leads me to believe they've thought through all the implications and they are serious about her going about citizenship the regular way. I just don't believe they haven't thought this through.But there are a lot of moving parts so things could change.

What we do know is she can't give up her US citizenship, until she is a British citizen, because a person can't be stateless. So if her American Citizenship becomes some huge problem, the only way to fix it, is to make her a British Citizen.

Replying to these together because they're to do with the same thing.

This is what I think is happening here:
1. I'm not sure if Meghan is entirely decided on retaining or renouncing her US citizenship; there has been a vagueness about her plans regarding that, which make me think she hasn't decided. It might be that she wants to keep her citizenship, but is also unsure of what problems that doing so will create, or it might be that she's not entirely sure yet.
2. Given the current political situation in the UK, I actually think it's very smart of them to announce that Meghan is going about getting her citizenship through the regular process. The British public is lukewarm to her as it is, her skipping to the head of the citizenship line isn't going to make them any friends at this stage in the game.
3. That said, if next year Meghan's citizenship creates a tax issue - how much do you think the British public is going to like a British Royal having to pay US taxes - then they could in all possibility go "in the interest of keeping British funds in Britain, Meghan's citizenship is being expedited and she will be giving up her US citizenship." I only think that'll happen if the taxes becomes an issue to the British public; if it doesn't, then I think she'll stick with the slow path.
4. I don't think they're going to worry about the citizenship of any future children until Meghan's actually pregnant. We don't know what timeline they're going to want to start having a family in, and we also don't know how quickly they'll be able to conceive once they start trying. It could very well be that 5 years down the line they won't have children yet, and thus Meghan's citizenship never becomes an issue. Or it could be that this time next year they could be expecting their first child and are facing backlash because of that child's potential citizenship, in which case they go "in the interest of keeping the British Royal Family British, Meghan's citizenship is being expedited and she will be giving up her US citizenship."

They don't gain anything by expediting her citizenship from the get go - it's just going to aggravate the public and be seen as the BRF being above the rules. But, if they say they're going to follow the rules at the start, then change that when the public start getting upset by what that entails, they can go "well, we tried, but were pushed into breaking the rules by the public."

 

[Alliec76]

Replying to these together because they're to do with the same thing.


They don't gain anything by expediting her citizenship from the get go - it's just going to aggravate the public and be seen as the BRF being above the rules. But, if they say they're going to follow the rules at the start, then change that when the public start getting upset by what that entails, they can go "well, we tried, but were pushed into breaking the rules by the public."

I think you're correct. I think they at least want to try, at the outset to go the normal route, as it buys her some goodwill. Can you imagine in this current climate regarding immigration, in both the UK and the US, an American just jumping to the front of the citizenship line? ("Oh America wants everyone to respect their immigration laws and now one of their own comes over here and wants to circumvent ours?") Maybe I'm overly sensitive to that because I am American and I know how we can be perceived. That no one else's laws/rules really matter but ours. This way if they must expedite it, as you say they will be able to rightly say we tried, but the public was up in arms.

And I think you may be correct that Meghan isn't totally sure. Giving up ones nationality isn't necessarily an easy thing. It can hold a deep emotional meaning for some people. I'm not sure if people are giving enough weight to that. For a lot of people their nationality is part of their identity. I personally can't imagine ever doing it. (The US can be crazy, like now, but I love it.) I also have never met and fallen in love with a British prince, (or any prince LOL) soooo perhahps if that happened I'd feel differently. However, I think if it got to the point that Meghan had to do it, she will do it and she is prepared to do it. She wouldn't have agreed to marry Harry if she wasn't. But giving up her citizenship is a moot point until she is a British citizen. Whenever that happens.

 

[royal rob]

How do you know this? Anything to back it up? None of us know anything of her personal religious beliefs, we simply cant make assumptions like that.

If she had strong beliefs I don’t think she would wait till she was getting married to get baptized etc and it will make life easier for her. But your right she might be very very religious in which case she wouldn’t need too many hours being trained

 

[ACO]

You gave solid points. Meghan is going to be 37 next year so I don't see them taking their sweet time conceiving. I can't imagine it will be easy for her to give up her citizenship but I also think she realizes she likely will have too.

 

[Alliec76]

You gave solid points. Meghan is going to be 37 next year so I don't see them taking their sweet time conceiving. I can't imagine it will be easy for her to give up her citizenship but I also think she realizes she likely will have too.

Agreed on both counts.

 

[Denville]

If she had strong beliefs I don’t think she would wait till she was getting married to get baptized etc and it will make life easier for her. But your right she might be very very religious in which case she wouldn’t need too many hours being trained

I find it hard to believe she's "very very religious", if she hasn't been a regular church goer or at least gone through the rite of baptism...

 

[royal rob]

I find it hard to believe she's "very very religious", if she hasn't been a regular church goer or at least gone through the rite of baptism...

I agree Danville but apparently some think I’m very wrong and can’t prove it. I think it’s speaks for itself there’s nothing wrong with converting to make things easier. IMO that’s what she’s doing

 

[Denville]

I dont know why they have announced this at all. If they felt it was better for her to be officialy C of E, she could have been baptised quietly, and not said anything.
There's nothing wrong with not being very religious, but I am a bit uncomfortable with someone converting or being baptised "just to fit in" with the RF...
However, its possible that she has some religious background/beleifs and now that she's getting married and having kids, she wants a formal religious structure to her life..but if it is just for social convenience.. I'm a bit uncomfortable..
However it is up to her..

 

[Curryong]

The Archbishop's words about Harry and Meghan's faith, after having conversations with them, seemingly don't mean a thing then.

 

[Osipi]

I dont know why they have announced this at all. If they felt it was better for her to be officialy C of E, she could have been baptised quietly, and not said anything.
There's nothing wrong with not being very religious, but I am a bit uncomfortable with someone converting or being baptised "just to fit in" with the RF...
However, its possible that she has some religious background/beleifs and now that she's getting married and having kids, she wants a formal religious structure to her life..but if it is just for social convenience.. I'm a bit uncomfortable..
However it is up to her..

When we really think about it, any denomination of a religion is a social structure. Its people coming together to worship in a certain manner as a congregation. They agree on certain tenets and ways of worshiping their God. Its the same thing basically when one joins a branch of the military. The Army does something one way, the RAF another way and the Navy, again, has their own specific ways of doing things. All Christian denominations though are worshiping and praising the same God just as all branches of the military are serving and protecting one country.

Religion and spirituality are two totally different things. A person can be religious and go to church every day, adhere strictly to the dogma and tenets of a certain denomination and tithe to the church very generously without being spiritual. A truly spiritual person shows day in and day out that they practice what they believe to be true and may have never once set foot into a church or join an organized religion. Spirituality is a personal journey and a one on one relationship with their Creator.

Meghan may have spent her entire life so far without being religious in any sense of the word. She hasn't been a card carrying member of any organized religion but to me, with some of the things she has done because she has wanted to and her general demeanor towards life and the people around her indicate to me that she has a very Christian like spirituality that has shone forth. At this stage of her life, perhaps she has realized that with starting a family, being part of the British royal family and with having a deep love for the man that will be her lifelong partner, she is taking what she knows to be true about her own spiritual path and formalizing it by actively seeking to join the Church of England. Its a personal decision.

Its not something that she is required to do by any means. Its her choice. Its between her and her God.

 

[Cocoasneeze]

The Archbishop's words about Harry and Meghan's faith, after having conversations with them, seemingly don't mean a thing then.

And he has actually met her and talked with her about her religious beliefs and faith. He might just no way more Tha we do.

 

[Denville]

he is harldy likely to say anything negative.. but as I've said, I don't know why they made this public at all. There's no obligation for Meghan to be C of E, so why did they make it known? I doubt if most people would have taken any great heed of how often she went to church after her marriage...

 

[Somebody]

It would have been noticed had she not taken communion. And if they would like any children they might have to be baptized, the question on her religious background would have come up again as well. So, being open about this makes sense to me; there is no reason to hide it. Much better than the risk to have it leaked as that would give the impression that it was something to be ashamed of.

 

[Denville]

I doubt it. I have no idea how often any of the RF go to church other than the queen... or take communion. And older Anglicans are not always frequent communion participants..

 

[Gaudete]

I doubt it. I have no idea how often any of the RF go to church other than the queen... or take communion. And older Anglicans are not always frequent communion participants..

This would depend on the individual parish. Some parishes (paradoxically called Anglo-Catholic) offer communion at every service, others only offer it once a month and some only for important days in the church calendar. By the same token, each parish will have it's own criteria on who can and who can't receive it. The most common approach however is that if a person feels they should receive it, they are welcome to do so regardless of whether they have been baptised or confirmed. I doubt this is the case in the services attended by the Queen but it's worth pointing out that the rules surrounding communion are not as rigid as those in other Christian denominations.

 

[wbenson]

I think the Queen and most of her family are traditionally very "low church," preferring mattins (no communion) to the eucharist for weekly services.