Meghan Markle: Citizenship and Religious Conversion

[Rudolph]

Baptism is a sacrament. It’s a person’s ‘introduction’ to being a Christian and since the CoE recognises the baptisms of most other faiths this means Meghan wasn’t baptised in another denomination.

As I said my opinion is the Queen would suggest Meghan be baptised. Of course she could have refused and IMO there would have been consequences but the fact is Meghan has agreed to be baptised and confirmed.

 

[Zaira]

AOC spoke today about the wedding including his role in it. Nothing has been confirmed, but it looks like it is up to Harry and Meghan if he will officiate. He also makes it very clear that he has had personal conversations with Harry and Meghan about their faith and the wedding. For those who were concerned.

https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/...ick-box-exercise-says-Archbishop-Justin-Welby

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, the Archbishop of Canterbury said: “I am very, very sure after conversations that this is no tick-box exercise, ‘we ought to get married in a church’.”

Harry and Ms Markle announced their engagement on November 27 after dating for just over 18 months.

They are due to marry at St George’s Chapel, Windsor Castle, in May.

“There is a profound sense of commitment, of seriousness, both about faith and their lives together, which is quite inspirational.

"It’s important because people look at it and see a model of how two people commit their lives to one another before God in the presence of millions of people.

"It’s always a beautiful moment - every wedding is profoundly beautiful. Even when you drop the rings it’s still a very moving wedding.”

He refused to confirm whether he would be conducting the ceremony, saying “I think that’s up to them”, but revealed he was looking forward to the big event, saying it would be “fun”.

 

[Somebody]

The CoE doesn't recognize baptisms of other faiths - only of other Christian (Trinitarian) denominations. I assume that is what you were trying to express.

I am not so sure that the Queen needed to suggest that it would be recommendable for Meghan to be baptized. I wouldn't be surprised if that was already part of the conversations that Harry had with her over a year ago about what the consequences, implications and expectations would be for her if she decided to marry him.

 

[Rudolph]

Yes other Christian denominations

 

[Somebody]

AOC spoke today about the wedding including his role in it. Nothing has been confirmed, but it looks like it is up to Harry and Meghan if he will officiate. He also makes it very clear that he has had personal conversations with Harry and Meghan about their faith and the wedding. For those who were concerned.

https://www.premier.org.uk/News/UK/...ick-box-exercise-says-Archbishop-Justin-Welby

See also this post earlier today and the subsequent conversation (given the high number of posts since, I fully understand that you missed it).

 

[Zaira]

See also this post earlier today and the subsequent conversation (given the high number of posts since, I fully understand that you missed it).

oops, sorry I had saw some of these posts but thought they were referring to AOC's statement right after the engagement. I didn't see the original post.

Thanks

 

[Alliec76]

As for the conversion issue, I don't get the problem. It seems Meghan was raised in a general Christian home. No specific denomination. Not that unusual. At least not in the US. Possibly what we call (jokingly) CME Christians (meaning they go to church on Christmas, Mother's Day and Easter). Now as a Christian she is going to join another denomination. So what's the problem?

Perhaps this is my Americanisim peeking through again. But as was said in an earlier post, American's tend to change denominations frequently. I was raised a Baptist (in the African-American church). I wasn't baptised until I was 14 and old enough to express a desire to do so. We don't do confirmations. You get baptised and that's it. I'm a life long church goer and the church I go to now is non denominational. We focus on being Christian. The worship style is similar to the black church, but it does not identify as Baptist, Methodist, etc. And honestly in America one of the fastest growing church memberships is non-denominational churches. So honestly Meghan may not be that hung up on the denomination part of it, as long as it is Christian she is probably fine with it.

My point being I feel like I'm missing something here. What is the problem with Meghan converting to the Church of England? That's between her and God. If the Queen takes her faith as seriously as has been claimed, I don't see her wanting someone to convert to a faith without them actually wanting to. If that were true (which I don't think it is) as a fellow woman of faith I'd certainly think less of her.

 

[jacqui24]

Anyways, back on the topic of her conversion, I'm going to assume the AoC has seen enough in his life to know when someone isn't committed to being baptized and married in the church. I'm sure he's seen more couples than he can count where they aren't really religious, but just want to get married in church because that's how it's done.

 

[Zaira]

As a Catholic all my life, I started going to a non denominational church this year mostly because I love how diverse it is and loved the music. People in my new church come from so many different backgrounds denominationally.

But it is true that in the UK folks who do attend church either go non-denominational or stick to the church of their upbringing. I have a church in London I attend (Catholic)since I am in London so much for work and you just don't see as much denominational drift.

 

[Pranter]

As far as the whole why is she converting issue, we should take Gamaliels advice in Acts 5:39

...For if their purpose or endeavor is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God.” ...

LaRae

 

[Cocoasneeze]

I'm sorry, that my terminology in this religious talk is lacking, I'm not used to talking about Christianity in English, especially different sects etc.

To my understanding, for many Christians, they're not tightly wound to, or tied to the certain sect of Christianity they've been raised in or grown up near. As I understand, Meghan's father is Jewish, right? She herself went to Chatolic school, but not because of the faith was important to her or her family. I have never read her sign onto one specific sect of Christianity, so I don't think there was any issues for her joining one specific sect, because she's not wound on or wasn't wound on one sect before.

 

[DeeT]

Life experiences, milestones and events can influence our faithfulness. It happens all of the time in the real world. Whether a relationship or illness, so many things can contribute to a person making changes in their faith or religion, and that is between the person and their God.

 

[Alliec76]

I'm sorry, that my terminology in this religious talk is lacking, I'm not used to talking about Christianity in English, especially different sects etc.

To my understanding, for many Christians, they're not tightly wound to, or tied to the certain sect of Christianity they've been raised in or grown up near. As I understand, Meghan's father is Jewish, right? She herself went to Chatolic school, but not because of the faith was important to her or her family. I have never read her sign onto one specific sect of Christianity, so I don't think there was any issues for her joining one specific sect, because she's not wound on or wasn't wound on one sect before.

Actually her father is Episcopalian. Her first husband was Jewish. She went to Catholic school, because it was a really good school. And you are correct that she hasn't really identified with a particular Christian denomination (which is what I think you meant by sect). So it would seem she was just raised in a very general Christian household which again is not that unusual in the US.

 

[jacqui24]

I'm sorry, that my terminology in this religious talk is lacking, I'm not used to talking about Christianity in English, especially different sects etc.

To my understanding, for many Christians, they're not tightly wound to, or tied to the certain sect of Christianity they've been raised in or grown up near. As I understand, Meghan's father is Jewish, right? She herself went to Chatolic school, but not because of the faith was important to her or her family. I have never read her sign onto one specific sect of Christianity, so I don't think there was any issues for her joining one specific sect, because she's not wound on or wasn't wound on one sect before.

Her father is not Jewish. That was a rumor reported by tabloids. Jason Knauf (Harry's Communications Secretary) has confirmed her dad is Episcopalian, which is a sect of Christianity. She went was to Catholic school, but many in Catholic schools in US aren't actually Catholic. It's a form of private school.

 

[Countessmeout]

Meghan may not have been baptized but she isn't going blind into this. She went to catholic school. She would have been expected to take religion class and attend mass. She certainly has a background to help her with it. She likely also attended church with her family when she grew up. Her dad is Episcopalian (the American Anglican church).

The archbishop of Canterbury seems quite impressed. It seems at the very least he has spoken to the couple a few times. I don't think the archbishop would have made such comments if he had never met Meghan. He spoke of her commitment both to marriage and to religion.

I also don't think the queen would have forced the baptism/confirmation issue. I think she would have insisted on her great grandkids being raised Anglican. And would expect them to attend church with her.

And I think she would have pushed the Anglican wedding either way. She didn't attend Charles and Camilla's wedding (she did the church blessing) more on a political level. Because of their affair, and her position. The same reason the wedding was not performed in the church in the first place. I think the queen would be insistant it important Harry and Meghan take religious vows, even if she didn't get baptized.

 

[Cocoasneeze]

Thank you so much, again, for those who explained Meghan's religious background to me. Reading that, it seems clear, that she isn't set in one way of Christianity. Jmho.

 

[soapstar]

A bunch of off-topic posts (Meghan's prior knowledge of the BRF, what she's giving up by marrying Harry, etc.) have been deleted. Lets's please stick to discussing Meghan's citizenship and religious conversion.

 

[Gaudete]

The timescale is worthy of note. In general, those wishing to be baptised and confirmed into the Anglican Church, the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church follow a catechesis programme for around 6 months to a year. This usually begins in late August/early September with reception taking place at Easter. Looking at the date of the engagement and the fact that they’ll marry in May, I imagine that this is the programme Meghan is following but with a one on one induction rather than any formal group process.

 

[Denville]

well yes I doubt if she will be doing it with other people, it will most likely be 1:1

 

[Somebody]

As for the conversion issue, I don't get the problem. It seems Meghan was raised in a general Christian home. No specific denomination. Not that unusual. At least not in the US. Possibly what we call (jokingly) CME Christians (meaning they go to church on Christmas, Mother's Day and Easter). Now as a Christian she is going to join another denomination. So what's the problem?

The M part is something I encountered only in the US. Not sure whether there are other countries in which people Mother's day is the second most important day in the church calender in terms of attendance...

Meghan could indeed very well be in this category but imo it is telling that she (or her parents) never formalized her relationship to any church/christianity (by christening - which would be expected in an Episcopal family - nor adult baptism or confirmation) until she decides to marry a British prince.

 

[ladongas]

...

Meghan could indeed very well be in this category but imo it is telling that she (or her parents) never formalized her relationship to any church/christianity (by christening - which would be expected in an Episcopal family - nor adult baptism or confirmation) until she decides to marry a British prince.

What do you mean by telling? I never joined any religious group until I married and converted to Judaism. I remember thinking that it was another way of embracing my husband and his family. And so it was, in addition to other personal feelings on my part.

 

[Alliec76]

The M part is something I encountered only in the US. Not sure whether there are other countries in which people Mother's day is the second most important day in the church calender in terms of attendance...

Meghan could indeed very well be in this category but imo it is telling that she (or her parents) never formalized her relationship to any church/christianity (by christening - which would be expected in an Episcopal family - nor adult baptism or confirmation) until she decides to marry a British prince.

Yes Mother's Day is a big deal in the black church in America. I'm not sure for others.

What is "telling" about her not having a formal relationship with a church? That doesn't tell me anything. And only her father was Episcopalian. Her mother has just been described as Protestant. And my guess is, based on her background, if she was raised in any faith tradition it was the black church, which encompasses a lot of denominations, but are largely Baptist. But it doesn't seem like denominations were a thing her parents were interested in.

 

[Somebody]

It tells me that she never felt the need to formally commit herself to Christianity.

Not being interested in denominations (I am not interested either, join a different denomination every time I move) doesn't mean that she couldn't have done the most basic thing which is to get baptized - as that would be something that any church would recommend if you aren't baptized yet.

Mother's Day was also a big deal in the church we attended in the States (which wasn't a black church); outside of the American evangelical world I haven't seen something to that extent.

What do you mean by telling? I never joined any religious group until I married and converted to Judaism. I remember thinking that it was another way of embracing my husband and his family. And so it was, in addition to other personal feelings on my part.

So, in your case the most important reason was joining your husband's family's religion. That clearly shows that a 'personal conversion experience' or 'spiritual awakening' is not necessarily what (primarily) motivates Meghan in her decision.

Not having been initiated before and in relation to her wedding to a British prince deciding to do so suggests that it is most likely not purely a result of a personal conversion nor a formalization of a strong Christian identity that she always had and has wanted to formalize since she became of age.

In general, I think it is wonderful that Harry and Meghan have decided to be members of the same church and I can only hope that it has personal significance for them.

 

[loonytick]

Yes Mother's Day is a big deal in the black church in America. I'm not sure for others.

What is "telling" about her not having a formal relationship with a church? That doesn't tell me anything. And only her father was Episcopalian. Her mother has just been described as Protestant. And my guess is, based on her background, if she was raised in any faith tradition it was the black church, which encompasses a lot of denominations, but are largely Baptist. But it doesn't seem like denominations were a thing her parents were interested in.

That her parents come from different Christian traditions is no small factor in the lack of baptism, I think. Especially when the different denominations have very different approaches to baptism (such as sprinkling an infant in a dedicatory service versus waiting for the child to be of an age and maturity to choose it for themselves).

I've seen plenty of families where Mom is from one tradition, Dad from another, and it doesn't quite feel right to them to have the children fully join one over the other. For instance, there's a family at my church right now who have decided not to baptize their kids because the Dad isn't 100% on board with it. He's ok with the children attending Sunday School and services every week, he's even there most of the time. But he just has a different idea of how baptism should work than our church does and they've decided to avoid that issue.

Based on the experiences of my adult friends who grew up in similar circumstances, unless you're in a church that vocally emphasizes the importance of baptism, if you've gotten to a certain point in life being religiously active without having taken that step it doesn't feel quite as pressing as it may feel to others. (until there's some distinct thing that comes up, like marriage into a family that considers it important, or a desire to christen your child in a particular church).

All that to say that, on the surface, it's just as likely that Meghan is a spiritual and "churched" individual who just hasn't gotten around to baptism as it likely that she is just going through the motions for PR reasons. We really are in no position to be able to say one way or the other.

What we do know is that the Anglican church let doesn't people just walk off the street and get baptized on a whim. At the very least, she'll have to have conversations with a member of the clergy who has a full understanding of what baptism and confirmation mean in the CoE.

 

[Pranter]

I think it's likely she's already been talking (in Catholicism we have a RCIA program, not sure if the CoE does this or not) to the clergy while she and Harry were dating.


LaRae

 

[Curryong]

Well, the Archbishop of Canterbury certainly thinks their faith and commitment are strong, having met them.

Britain is an extraordinarily secular country nowadays. There are millions of people unbaptised, unconfirmed, who don't step over a church's threshold except for the occasional wedding or funeral for the whole of their lives. Religion is really rarely discussed among British people I know there. If Meghan is not religious in a formal sense then she will fit in just fine in her adopted country.

 

[ladongas]

So, in your case the most important reason was joining your husband's family's religion. That clearly shows that a 'personal conversion experience' or 'spiritual awakening' is not necessarily what (primarily) motivates Meghan in her decision.

Not having been initiated before and in relation to her wedding to a British prince deciding to do so suggests that it is most likely not purely a result of a personal conversion nor a formalization of a strong Christian identity that she always had and has wanted to formalize since she became of age.

In general, I think it is wonderful that Harry and Meghan have decided to be members of the same church and I can only hope that it has personal significance for them.

The pews are full of non believers who are there for their own personal reasons. Most people don’t care to be judged by others.

 

[Denville]

How on earth can you knwow that "pews" are filled by non beleivers?????

 

[CyrilVladisla]

When Meghan is baptized (christened) into the Church of England faith, will she have any baptism sponsors?

 

[Zaira]

There are many traditions in the US that do not put a huge primacy on baptism. Not everyone gets baptized as a public showing of their faith. My best friend is actually baptist (which does put a huge focus on baptism) and she hasn't been baptized and doesn't feel in any hurry to but she is a faithful/devout Christian. More than me who has been christened twice, confirmed in the Catholic church and again baptized in another tradition lol.