King Abdullah And Queen Rania - discussing their projects

[Ipi Tombe]

do you have any idea how uninformed and naive you sound???

It doesn't matter whether King Abdullah flies in a liposuction surgeon or a hairstylist to Jordan every week, what does matter is the future. The billions of dollars in aid given to Jordan by the west is not going to stop regardless of these supposed extravagances. There is no slippery slope to destruction. The Hashemites will not be overthrown from within or without no matter what. All of the criticisms directed against the King, such as lack of free speech, human rights abuses, "despotic" control of parliament etc. etc, are all equally irrelevent. It does not matter how offended or outraged narrow-minded people are at the alleged crimes or misdeeds of the monarchy, all this negative spin amounts to just preaching to the choir. The real issue is the future and the direction that the King is taking his country and the region. The big picture demands a completely new approach, and in order to accomplish his mission, the King must play by new rules. The 20th century is over. The world of His late Majesty King Hussein is gone. Only King Abdullah knows how to create the new order necessary for the Middle East to evolve beyond the conflicts and chaos of the old order. The powers that be in the west realize this and as a result, the King's position is secure. There are of course many people who do not want Jordan to evolve and transform the Middle East. Some of these people, like the old guard in Jordan try to block the king politically and so he dismisses or censures them. Some people like the Islamist fundamentalist terrorists try to stop the King by bringing death and destruction, and so they are killed or imprisoned. Still others like the traditionalist Arab press try to bring the King down by criticizing him in the media, so he shuts them up and doesn't let them spread hate and disinformation. And then there are those in the west (and on the internet) who also resist the idea of a new Jordan and Middle East and so they try to diminish the King by harping on how much money he spends flying in surgeons and hairdressers. All of these people have two things in common: their cause is fruitless and their efforts are in vain. Things must change in the Middle East and it doesn't just include the issue of poverty. The poor and disinfranchised in Jordan are guaranteed to remain that way if the old order is allowed to return, but if the King is able to succeed in his mission who knows what the future can hold. Petty criticism and pessimistic interpretation do nothing but make critics and pessimists feel good about themselves. Hope, optimism, and a new vision for the future are the only things that can change the Middle East.

 

[Humble]

Welcome Back Sean

On the same token, are Britain and the US 'underdeveloped', 'third world' countries? How much foreign aid do Britain and the US get? What percentage of the population in the US, Britain, and even Morocco live in refugee camps? What is the unemployment rate in Britain and the US compared to Jordan? The average income of the Jordanian family & their tax rate? What's the GNP of Jordan? Are any ethnic groups officially discriminated against in Britain and the US? How many palaces does the US President have use of? And HM the QE II in comparison to King Abdullah? -- Remember, Jordan has a fraction of the population of thethe UK and US.

Just another perspective, that's all.

Welcome back Sean...I am glad you are posting again...for those who do not know...Sean's posts have been always thoughtful with well arguments and facts..I am glad you are back because we have been talking here (in the JRF forum) mainly about clothing, jewellery, bags and so on..And as someone put somewhere when we go deeper beyong those things, some of us get angry and defensive....

It seems that people want always to hear and see fairy tale stories about royalities regardless of the situation of the country they serve or even how this royality came to the power in the first place...

 

[Ipi Tombe]

if you want a lively debate and not some hero worshipping thread-let us debate the comparisons between pre-revolution France and Jordan. Antoinette v. Rania how will they do in prison? Hussein v. Petite Roi which one will be better suited for the throne once his parents are removed.

Don't worry, I will try and control myself..hehehehehe.

 

[Balqis]

Ipi Tombe, I am above your personal attacks and will not dignify them with a direct response.

If you want to stick to the issues maybe we can have a real discussion.

P.S. Your analogy to Marie Antoinette is a complete fallacy. There will never be a French Revolution-style uprising in Jordan. There is no valid or sane comparison between 1780's France and modern-day Jordan. The two situations are completely different. Unlike the monarchy of Louis XVI, King Abdullah's rule is protected by the most powerful countries in the world. Also unlike Louis and Marie, King Abdullah and Queen Rania are actually working hard to modernize their country, improve the welfare of their citizens and transform their society for the better. The better historical comparison would be Czar Peter the Great of Russia. Like Abdullah, Peter was in the unpopular position of having to overcome a backward thinking old guard within his nation while simultaneously opening up completely new relationships with the west. In order to secure new international status for his country, Peter had to build new lavish extravagant palaces and put on a dazzling show to impress the west. This caused many to critisize him for his " excesses". Just like Queen Rania, a coat that Peter might wear to a international summit with western monarchs cost more than one Russian family would make in a year. But the end result was his country was respected and given the international aid needed. Louis and Marie deserved to be overthrown because all they did was hold parties for the aristocrats and wallow in their own self-importance. King Abdullah and Queen Rania just like Peter the Great, are modernising their nation and raising its status on the international stage. To do that, they need to look the part and play the role in accordance with the rules of the game. History will judge the results not you.

 

[Ipi Tombe]

abdullah might be protected by some of the most powerful nations on this planet (by the way-this shows your complete lack of international politics) whereas as Mary & Loui were the king and queen of the most powerful nation.

when the unwashed hordes marched on versailles, their guards stepped aside and let the hordes storm the palace because they sympathized with the hordes. your dear rania and abdullah will face a similar fate. your stupifing ignorance to the mounting war chants and harrowing tenunous nature of the hashmites rule does not negate the fact that the overthrow of the abdullah is hotly debated from DC to Kuwait City to Bejing.

history will march on and justice will be done to the long suffering jordanian poeple. they deserve a noble, intelligent and strong leader. not some midget more obsessed with keeping his botox-addicted wife and puppet masters happy than serving the needs of the people.

Ipi Tombe, I am above your personal attacks and will not dignify them with a direct response.

If you want to stick to the issues maybe we can have a real discussion.

P.S. Your analogy to Marie Antoinette is a complete fallacy. There will never be a French Revolution-style uprising in Jordan. There is no valid or sane comparison between 1780's France and modern-day Jordan. The two situations are completely different. Unlike the monarchy of Louis XVI, King Abdullah's rule is protected by the most powerful countries in the world. Also unlike Louis and Marie, King Abdullah and Queen Rania are actually working hard to modernize their country, improve the welfare of their citizens and transform their society for the better. The better historical comparison would be Czar Peter the Great of Russia. Like Abdullah, Peter was in the unpopular position of having to overcome a backward thinking old guard within his nation while simultaneously opening up completely new relationships with the west. In order to secure new international status for his country, Peter had to build new lavish extravagant palaces and put on a dazzling show to impress the west. This caused many to critisize him for his " excesses". Just like Queen Rania, a coat that Peter might wear to a international summit with western monarchs cost more than one Russian family would make in a year. But the end result was his country was respected and given the international aid needed. Louis and Marie deserved to be overthrown because all they did was hold parties for the aristocrats and wallow in their own self-importance. King Abdullah and Queen Rania just like Peter the Great, are modernising their nation and raising its status on the international stage. To do that, they need to look the part and play the role in accordance with the rules of the game. History will judge the results not you.

 

[Balqis]

you are the ignorant twit here, not me.

I see the quality of your responses continues to be of the highest calibre.

when the unwashed hordes marched on versailles, their guards stepped aside and let the hordes storm the palace because they sympathized with the hordes.

The people guarding the Hashemites have only one consideration and that is protecting their principals. They've been trained by the CIA and MI6 and to ignore the masses and would happily die to protect the monarchy.

your dear rania and abdullah will face a similar fate. your stupifing ignorance

More high quality dialogue!

to the mounting war chants and harrowing tenunous nature of the hashmites rule does not negate the fact that the overthrow of the abdullah is hotly debated from DC to Kuwait City to Bejing.

They can debate all they want, but the fact remains that Abdullah is the only true ally of the west in the region and therefore he will remain in power no matter what threats arise within or without. Do not let your hate cloud your judgement on this. You obviously detest the Hashemites for petty personal reasons that have nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

history will march on and justice will be done to the long suffering jordanian poeple.

Perhaps you think an Iran-style theocracy would be better for the "suffering people"?

they deserve a noble, intelligent and strong leader. not some midget more obsessed with keeping his botox-addicted wife and puppet masters happy than serving the needs of the people.

These caricatures only show your irrational hatred for the King and Queen and the tone of your denouncements lowers your argument. Are you bloviating in this way just because you want to have this thread shut down? Would an honest and fair discussion of the Hashemites so threaten your assumptions that you have to try and ruin this dialogue with inflammatory nonsense? Or maybe you would just like to keep attacking me personally?

 

[QueenB]

Balqis/UFO/Barbara/Steve, your constant insults and barrage of nastiness, crossed the lines of intelligent/civil debate a long time ago.

Ipi, you hit the nail right on the head! Their constant repetition of the same 'facts' and continually both delusional and ignorant posts prove their lack of knowledge. QR and KA care about keeping themselves in power and don't care about their people or the needy unless there is a good pr moment where they can shove a camera in a person in need's face and exploit the situation to make themselves look competent.

 

[Ennyllorac]

Let's please remember that we are here to have a civil discussion. Please refrain from personal attacks.

 

[QueenB]

I have to ask. Why is it when Balqis attempts to personally attack other members, as long as it's a pro Jordanian Royal stance, none of the moderators issue a warning or anything. But anyone else defends themselves against attacks or calls them on it, and right away there's a moderator's warning? I am not the only person who is wondering this.. is there a double standard? One can attack other members as long as they are pro JRF?

Let's please remember that we are here to have a civil discussion. Please refrain from personal attacks.

 

[paloma]

Abdullah is only an ally as long as people are stuffing his pockets full of money.

As far as an Iran style theocracy, well let me tell you....it is coming sooner than you think. Ask anyone in the region or who has lived in the region, and most people will say that they don't even give the Hashemites 8-10 more years on the throne.

If Queen Noor is smart, she will see to it, that her children are prepared to live their lives outside of Jordan and be independent. Making sure that her kids are educated and can keep real jobs would be the best gift that she could give to her kids. Something tells me that this issue is in her thoughts quite a bit.

 

[Balqis]

Balqis/UFO/Barbara/Steve, your constant insults and barrage of nastiness, crossed the lines of intelligent/civil debate a long time ago.

Just for the record I have never insulted anyone on Jordan Royal Family Forum nor have I been nasty. I stick to the discussion and I refrain from calling people ignorant just because they disagree with me.

 

[Ennyllorac]

I have to ask. Why is it when Balqis attempts to personally attack other members, as long as it's a pro Jordanian Royal stance, none of the moderators issue a warning or anything. But anyone else defends themselves against attacks or calls them on it, and right away there's a moderator's warning? I am not the only person who is wondering this.. is there a double standard? One can attack other members as long as they are pro JRF?

I made a general comment. It was not addressed to one person in particular but to all involved.

 

[QueenB]

Go back and read most of your previous posts and then come back to this thread and tell the truth. You have personally attacked other members you disagreed with continuously.

Just for the record I have never insulted anyone on Jordan Royal Family Forum nor have I been nasty. I stick to the discussion and I refrain from calling people ignorant just because they disagree with me.

 

[Alexandria]

ennyllorac's comments were directed at everyone in this thread. More than one member is responsible for the turn in attitude and negativity in this thread.

Furthermore, this thread is about Rania's recylcing of outfits. If you would like to further discuss moderatorship of threads take it up with via PM. And if you would like to consider the praising/criticizing of the Jordanian royals, then either start a new thread or PM each other.

Further infractions and attacks in this very thread will result in this entire thread being closed.

 

[Moon]

How many average british people live in castles, how many average americans are in the white house, how many average moroccan women wear golden belts?

NB: When a moroccan lady buys a golden belt..It is one in a life time.
As for the Moroccan princesses, you wont see them with a new golden belt every time they show up in a public event..In fact, they dont wear a golden belt in all events...Go back to their pics and check by yourself....

 

[QueenB]

I agree! It's a pity there is no freedom of speech or freedom of the press in Jordan because then people could really see and say what is happening in their Country and within their government.

Abdullah is only an ally as long as people are stuffing his pockets full of money.

As far as an Iran style theocracy, well let me tell you....it is coming sooner than you think. Ask anyone in the region or who has lived in the region, and most people will say that they don't even give the Hashemites 8-10 more years on the throne.

If Queen Noor is smart, she will see to it, that her children are prepared to live their lives outside of Jordan and be independent. Making sure that her kids are educated and can keep real jobs would be the best gift that she could give to her kids. Something tells me that this issue is in her thoughts quite a bit.

 

[Balqis]

Go back and read most of your previous posts and then come back to this thread and tell the truth. You have personally attacked other members you disagreed with continuously.

Maybe we seem to disagree on what the term "personal attack" implies. In my dictionary it signifies saying something negative personally about another individual. I have deliberately stuck to addressing the points in any given argument and that's all. I have never attacked anyone here in the JRF section on a personal basis. If I attack anything it is the issue. I don't call people ignorant, I don't tell them to go and get a stinking life, I do however point out the fallacy of their argument if it is based on hate, disinformation or propaganda.

 

[QueenB]

If the comments were directed at everyone in this thread, then it should have been said in the post. I brought it up, because I myself have noticed that those warnings only come up when something that isn't pro JRF is said.

ennyllorac's comments were directed at everyone in this thread. More than one member is responsible for the turn in attitude and negativity in this thread.

Furthermore, this thread is about Rania's recylcing of outfits. If you would like to further discuss moderatorship of threads take it up with via PM. And if you would like to consider the praising/criticizing of the Jordanian royals, then either start a new thread or PM each other.

Further infractions and attacks in this very thread will result in this entire thread being closed.

 

[Humera]

There's no point in bickering with someone over total strangers.
Its one thing to like/dislike the jordanian royals and another to get into fights over them. None of us know them well enough to take things so personally

 

[Moon]

And Balqis has been also so defensive...After I'd read the latest discussion under this topic..I went and skimmed through Balqis's posts...Oh boy, she is so defensive and like i read in one of the replies to one of her posts...she is indeed a stauncher supporter of the JRF no matter what...love is blind as they say...

But i noticed that those who are not very pro JRF, they made it clear in their posts that they do not hate KA and QR, but their way of living..So, i think that was professional of them to state it and noticed that they indeed focused on their behaviors and not on the persons per se....

Although none of us know these royals personally, i can say with confidence that their behavior is an indicator of who they are...And if we have to wait to live with them to think we can get accurate statements, then this does not make sense...
(e.g. when people elect presidents, they base their opinions on their actions...if they say, i have to know the person personally to elect him, then nothing would be done)..

Human beings do not experience knowledge about someone or something only and strictly through first hand experience..we also get 2nd hand knowledge through other means....How objective we are willing to be depends on your critical thinking, your ability to absorb other's opinions, your ability to accept the differences and so on...

Just an opinion...

 

[Sean.~]

It's a contentious subject (the JRF & the political-economic situation in the ME), and it brings out passionionate positions in everyone. Believe me, I know

To answer Humble's question, that is one of the reasons I've stayed away, because once I get started... Anyway, it takes a lot of energy & time, and we're often debating with people who are not familiar with the the facts (and I'm not referring to anyone in particular), and/or are not always willing to look at the broader picture, or who will be apologists due to their status under the regime (or for other reaons) despite the historical precedents and overwhelming 'proof' (for lack of a better term) to the contrary -- ie a previous posters dismissive comments about 'alleged human rights violations' in Jordan. I mean COME ON, I can cite several real cases off the top of my head. Not only was that comment apologetic propaganda/'spin' at it's worst, but it is also insulting and demeaning to all those who have suffered under the Hashemite regime.

A comparison was also drawn between the Hashemites and the Romanovs. Rather than a Peter the great, I see Abdullah as a Reza Pahalavi -- anyone who is familiar with the history of the region will know why. And we all know the fate he suffered (and the fate of the Romanovs is nothing brag about either).

Although the subject of Rania's recyling (or lack thereof) may sound superficial, what many don't realize that her recycling and spending in general does have an impact on the perception of the JRF & thus affects its future. Some, like Balqis, hold that it will have a positive impact, whereas others (like myself) hold that it will contribute to the family's downfall. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're not that off topic --

If the comments were directed at everyone in this thread, then it should have been said in the post. I brought it up, because I myself have noticed that those warnings only come up when something that isn't pro JRF is said.

 

[Balqis]

Sean, it was a pleasure to read your post. Even though we do not agree I do like to read other points of view when they are conveyed with respect and a focus on the real issues.

It's a contentious subject (the JRF & the political-economic situation in the ME), and it brings out passionionate positions in everyone. Believe me, I know

To answer Humble's question, that is one of the reasons I've stayed away, because once I get started... Anyway, it takes a lot of energy & time, and we're often debating with people who are not familiar with the the facts (and I'm not referring to anyone in particular), and/or are not always willing to look at the broader picture, or who will be apologists due to their status under the regime (or for other reaons) despite the historical precedents and overwhelming 'proof' (for lack of a better term) to the contrary -- ie a previous posters dismissive comments about 'alleged human rights violations' in Jordan. I mean COME ON, I can cite several real cases off the top of my head. Not only was that comment apologetic propaganda/'spin' at it's worst, but it is also insulting and demeaning to all those who have suffered under the Hashemite regime.

I do not mean to insult those who may have suffered unjustly, but the fact is that Jordan, like any other Arab nation in the region, is a tough and brutal place filled with many dangerous factions who threaten progress from all sides. In order to maintain control of the population, King Abdullah must be feared more than he is loved. I am not trying to excuse or "spin" his often strong-armed tactics. They're simply necessary to maintain order while the country marches forward. It's not like Abdullah is sponsoring death camps and rape rooms. The authorities throw people in prison and maybe the wrong person gets tortured, but this sends a powerful message to dangerous troublemakers who would otherwise run rampant. And it's not as if Jordan holds the monopoly on unjust imprisonment. Remember the Guildford Five in the UK, or just take a trip down to Guantanamo Bay. These are examples of injustice perpetrated by the "leading lights of democracy". Cut Abdullah some slack.

A comparison was also drawn between the Hashemites and the Romanovs. Rather than a Peter the great, I see Abdullah as a Reza Pahalavi -- anyone who is familiar with the history of the region will know why. And we all know the fate he suffered (and the fate of the Romanovs is nothing brag about either).

Sean, I can understand why you would make a comparison between Abdullah and the Shah. Whether or not it's valid will be determined by how effectively the King maintains control of his society. But, like Peter the Great, Abdullah has a vision for the future and his ongoing reforms ensure positive forward momentum. Peter the Great was never overthrown (though many tried) and because he kept control during the transformation process, allowing for a new generation of new citizens to reap the rewards of his reforms, thus ensuring the stability of his regime. Your point about the end of the Romanovs is a good one that should be kept in mind. Czar Nicholas II lost the throne due to his lack of control and inefficient, clumsy use of authority. As long as King Abdullah maintains a strong forward thinking agenda, keeps his military happy through strong ties with the west, and continues to promote a vision of the future that the youth will embrace, his rule will be secure and his country will evolve.

Although the subject of Rania's recyling (or lack thereof) may sound superficial, what many don't realize that her recycling and spending in general does have an impact on the perception of the JRF & thus affects its future. Some, like Balqis, hold that it will have a positive impact, whereas others (like myself) hold that it will contribute to the family's downfall. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we're not that off topic --

Excellent analysis, Sean. All of these subjects are inextricably intermingled. Whether or not the impact is positive depends on one's assumptions.

 

[wymanda]

While there are those here happy to critisise Rania I wonder if they were as quick to do the same to Diana when she was spending thousands of pounds on clothes during a time when her husband and his family payed no tax on their substantial private income???

 

[Moon]

While there are those here happy to critisise Rania I wonder if they were as quick to do the same to Diana when she was spending thousands of pounds on clothes during a time when her husband and his family payed no tax on their substantial private income???

Diana is british...Britain is not Jordan..No need to elaborate on the differences between the two countries and the two familes (not to state the obvious)...
NB: Diana came from a Noble family..even one the tiaras she wore belongs to her one family...SO.....................


(Again, posters are criticizing actions/ behaviors)...

We need to accept that Rania wears beautiful gowns..that she has a sense of style, that she is pretty, blah,,,blah...BUT....She and the JRF members are spending too much money they do not really deserve..They are OVERDOING IT...

 

[wymanda]

Diana is british...Britain is not Jordan..No need to elaborate on the differences between the two countries and the two familes (not to state the obvious)...
NB: Diana came from a Noble family..even one the tiaras she wore belongs to her one family...SO.....................


(Again, posters are criticizing actions/ behaviors)...

We need to accept that Rania wears beautiful gowns..that she has a sense of style, that she is pretty, blah,,,blah...BUT....She and the JRF members are spending too much money they do not really deserve..They are OVERDOING IT...

My point was that Diana's husband was recieving a HUGE income without paying tax on any of it. Wether Diana's family were noble or not does not enter into the equation. She was spending obscene amounts of money on clothes during the early years of her marriage. Her family certainly were not paying for them so it was obviously coming from the public purse. Also the Spencers didn't pay the royals with the tiara! They had it back quick smart when she died!
People would critisise Rania very quickly if she didn't dress like a queen. Other posters have said that the people of society in Jordan would certainly be vocal in their critisism if she didn't have lots of nice clothes, shoes etc.

 

[Sean.~]

My point was that Diana's husband was recieving a HUGE income without paying tax on any of it. Wether Diana's family were noble or not does not enter into the equation. She was spending obscene amounts of money on clothes during the early years of her marriage. Her family certainly were not paying for them so it was obviously coming from the public purse. Also the Spencers didn't pay the royals with the tiara! They had it back quick smart when she died!

People would critisise Rania very quickly if she didn't dress like a queen. Other posters have said that the people of society in Jordan would certainly be vocal in their critisism if she didn't have lots of nice clothes, shoes etc.

1.Actually, the Prince of Wales is paid from the income from the Duchy of Cornwall -- Crown Esates -- not the "public purse".

2. Diana DID spend an obscene amount of money. No argument from me. And she WAS criticized for it -- often.

3. As to Rania living like she does to please society: Hardly. That's just an excuse. It's substance that matters. Sure she should be presentable, but their lifesytle (not just the clothes) is excessive. Flying in hairdressers & having $64,000 shoes made is beyond decadent. It's Marcos-Mugabe-esque. As someone who knows the ME & the people there, I can tell you that people are not impressed by her spending habits. Abdullah and his Mrs. live like Third World despots.

4. Regardless of what Diana's spent, the two are not comparable. Jordan is NOT Brtain. I think the previous poster presented that argument quite well.

 

[amina1]

Are there shoes of $64000? I have no idea!
I know about her dresses but that expensive shoes...

 

[Sean.~]

Are there shoes of $64000? I have no idea!
I know about her dresses but that expensive shoes...

Actually, they cost more than that. That was just the 'down payment' . they are made out of gold & studded with topazes and diamonds. She had them made in India. She was having them made in Pakistan before but they were only made of leather covered in gold. Apparently that wasn't good enough.
I think Humera (or someone else) posted one article last year

Anyway, here's an excerpt from an article on the subject that happened to save:

"The queen used to get her shoes designed in Peshawar but they were not
made of pure gold, only gold threads were used on the leather.

"The shoes she wants now will be made from pure gold without leather or
foam."

The newspaper says Jordanian officials had reportedly paid an advance of
£34,468 for the job and the remainder, "a substantial amount of money", will
be paid after delivery."

The rest of the article can be read here
http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/12/20/story33904.asp

 

[Humera]

I think Humera (or someone else) posted one article last year

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2001/12/20/story33904.asp

you know it was me
admit it, it was that post that scared you away from this board for months

 

[Sean.~]

you know it was me
admit it, it was that post that scared you away from this board for months

Huh? No, it was the post that got us started on the whole Rania spending thing. There were lots of other (heated) threads on the same subject after that, as well as Jordan's role in the Middle East Peace process, etc. In any case, I know you started the thread on the gold shoes, but I was wasn't sure if you actually posted the article (And I'm too lazy to go look). I recall that someone eventually did.

Anyway, soemone wrote the other day that this board was easy to navigate to back and look for things. Unfortunately, I don't agree I can never find what I'm looking for.

I never actually left the board until it started going down every other day & when the other things happened. I just didn't have the time to post. I find that once I start, it's hard to stop, so best not to start at all! ;-)