King Abdullah And Queen Rania - discussing their projects

[Sean.~]

So much for the people who say she is extravagent!!

She is extravegant. Just because she wearing outfits or jewells (or her gem encrusted gold shoes) worth thousands of dollars more than once does not make her un-extravegant.

 

[Ipi Tombe]

get a stinking life.

you have GOT to be kidding me!!! rania recycles a clutch, scarf, dress and a blouse and she is now some hero of the thrift store!!!

puhlease, let us go ask the average jordanian woman how many evening clutches they have or how many elie saab gowns are taking up space in their oversized closet.....this is pathetic.

if you are so impressed with rania, balqis, that you think recycling a designer scarf warrants praise-then so be it. but i think it is despicable. you have very obviously never travelled anywhere near the arab world or know any arabs to think this woman is worthy of such devotion.

every last jordanian friend i have laughs at and ridicules the "hand bag queen" for her extravagance-and they CAN afford it!!!!

 

[Sean.~]

you have GOT to be kidding me!!! rania recycles a clutch, scarf, dress and a blouse and she is now some hero of the thrift store!!!

puhlease, let us go ask the average jordanian woman how many evening clutches they have or how many elie saab gowns are taking up space in their oversized closet.....this is pathetic.

if you are so impressed with rania, balqis, that you think recycling a designer scarf warrants praise-then so be it. but i think it is despicable. you have very obviously never travelled anywhere near the arab world or know any arabs to think this woman is worthy of such devotion.

every last jordanian friend i have laughs at and ridicules the "hand bag queen" for her extravagance-and they CAN afford it!!!!

Hi there.

This subject has been so many times, and in has been the source of many a heated argument! I, too, can't believe that anyone who knows anything about the ME (economically, politically, and culturally) would regard Rania as anything other than extravegant, particularly given the economic status of her subjects. Anyway, all too often people ar e taken in by the glitter and glamour of 'royalty' (not necessarily anyone here), and neglect the substantive governance issues and consequences of such conspicuous consumption.

The point of my post is to refer you to the thread titled "Rania's Gold Shoes". It's a good read. There are a couple of other ones titled Queen Rania and Queen Rania's spending, IIRC. Lots of good heated debates.

Cheers,

Sean.

 

[Safaa Batin]

puhlease, let us go ask the average jordanian woman how many evening clutches they have or how many elie saab gowns are taking up space in their oversized closet.....this is pathetic.

How many average british people live in castles, how many average americans are in the white house, how many average moroccan women wear golden belts?

 

[Sean.~]

How many average british people live in castles, how many average americans are in the white house, how many average moroccan women wear golden belts?

On the same token, are Britain and the US 'underdeveloped', 'third world' countries? How much foreign aid do Britain and the US get? What percentage of the population in the US, Britain, and even Morocco live in refugee camps? What is the unemployment rate in Britain and the US compared to Jordan? The average income of the Jordanian family & their tax rate? What's the GNP of Jordan? Are any ethnic groups officially discriminated against in Britain and the US? How many palaces does the US President have use of? And HM the QE II in comparison to King Abdullah? -- Remember, Jordan has a fraction of the population of thethe UK and US.

Just another perspective, that's all.

 

[Humera]

oh boy..here we go again

 

[Sean.~]

oh boy..here we go again

Don't worry, I will try and control myself..hehehehehe.

 

[Humera]

Don't worry, I will try and control myself..hehehehehe.

thats good to hear..but I was referring to this topic
Although I do admit I've thought of posting such pictures myself but thought it too risky

 

[Sean.~]

thats good to hear..but I was referring to this topic
Although I do admit I've thought of posting such pictures myself but thought it too risky

Lol about the risky bit. Yes, the topic does seem to come up rather often.

 

[Safaa Batin]

On the same token, are Britain and the US 'underdeveloped', 'third world' countries? How much foreign aid do Britain and the US get? What percentage of the population in the US, Britain, and even Morocco live in refugee camps? What is the unemployment rate in Britain and the US compared to Jordan? The average income of the Jordanian family & their tax rate? What's the GNP of Jordan? Are any ethnic groups officially discriminated against in Britain and the US? How many palaces does the US President have use of? And HM the QE II in comparison to King Abdullah? -- Remember, Jordan has a fraction of the population of thethe UK and US.

my point was that the kings and queens in any country do not live in the same level of the average people, what ever was this average. and the people live in the refugee camps are not jordanians, unless the whole world (GB in particular) should live in poverty in sympathy with the refugees of the world .. I like that .

 

[shelley]

On the same token, are Britain and the US 'underdeveloped', 'third world' countries? How much foreign aid do Britain and the US get? What percentage of the population in the US, Britain, and even Morocco live in refugee camps? What is the unemployment rate in Britain and the US compared to Jordan? The average income of the Jordanian family & their tax rate? What's the GNP of Jordan? Are any ethnic groups officially discriminated against in Britain and the US? How many palaces does the US President have use of? And HM the QE II in comparison to King Abdullah? -- Remember, Jordan has a fraction of the population of thethe UK and US.

Just another perspective, that's all.

It is true that the present kimg and queen have in the the five/six years they have been in power, have as many new houses and planes etc as his father accumulated after forty plus years of being king.

 

[Sean.~]

my point was that the kings and queens in any country do not live in the same level of the average people, what ever was this average. and the people live in the refugee camps are not jordanians, unless the whole world (GB in particular) should live in poverty in sympathy with the refugees of the world .. I like that .

You can not eqauate the standard of living of leaders of rich, developed western countries and rich oil monarchies to the lifestyle of the Hashemites, who rule over a resource poor, aid-dependent, third world country. Besides,
no King/Queen or President in the West lives like the Hashemites do. Heads of state in the West are subject to public scrutiny and checks and balances, and are cognizant of public opinion. This is all missing in Jordan. The King isn't accountable. Moreover, the heads of state in the West rule/reign in rich, developed countries -- that was my point. They have a larger income base, and people are not living in Third World conditions.

I personally find it deeply offensive that we give aid to a country which is not only a human rights abuser, is known for its financial mismanagement and endemic corruption (as per international IFIs), but where the (incredibly large) royal family lives so extravagantly & where they seem to work for the 'state' or some 'foundation' in some capacity or the other.

And as far as the Palestinian refugees are concerned, they are Jordanians insofar as the majority were born in Jordan. Even if they do not qualify as Jordanians in your lexicon, it doesn't mean that they should have to live in the conditions that they are forced to live in, particularly when the perception is that the royal family and officials have so much money to blow. Refugees aren't treated like dogs here, particularly when they contribute to the economy too. Nor should they (as well as other Palestinians in Jordan) be officially discriminated against like they are by the Hashemite regime.

No one is saying that the whole world should live in poverty in sympathy with the refugees of the world. However, like it or not, refugees comprise a large chunk of Jordan's population & they are not going back anytime soon (if ever). Thusit is the perception that such a large segment of the urban population in Jordan that lives in such dismal, disenfranchised conditions while the RF lives so extravagantly for a third world country, that matters.

As far a I'm concerned, The Hashemites are personally responsible for the Palestinians, as it is the poor decisions and visions of grandeur of Abdullah I, Hussain I that put them there to begin with. I agree that Great Britain does share some culpability, yes, since the Hashemites were an instrument of its foreign policy. However, that's a whole other matter & way off-topic.

 

[Sean.~]

It is true that the present kimg and queen have in the the five/six years they have been in power, have as many new houses and planes etc as his father accumulated after forty plus years of being king.

Let's not forget the artist she commissioned for hand painted tiles for one of her vacation villas. The cost of that alone was in seven figure range, IIRC. No Western leader living off the public purse would do such a thing (yes, I know that the Hashemites are not Western leaders, but a previous poster was trying to draw a correlation).

 

[Safaa Batin]

Here I think you hit a very important nail on the head. The Jordanian people are confused sometimes as to what image they want their royal family to portray. if too extravagant, they rightly get critised, but if too simple, that is also the case, especially from some quarters.

correct and that why they need to be like if they are walking on a rope , and they will do mistakes.
to avoid critique they should not be too exravagrant nor simple, and even they will still be critiqued. Q rania was critiqued because they think that she does not wear same thing twice, and now when know still will find reasons to critique even if they are not sure of it.

 

[Balqis]

You can not eauate the standard of living of leaders of rich, developed western countries and rich oil monarchies to the lifestyle of the Hashemites, who rule over a resource poor, aid-dependent, third world country. Besides,
no King/Queen or President in the West lives like the Hashemites do. Heads of state in the West are subject to public scrutiny and checks and balances, and are cognizant of public opinion. This is all missing in Jordan. The King isn't accountable. Moreover, the heads of state in the West rule/reign in rich, developed countries -- that was my point. They have a larger income base, and people are not living in Third World conditions.

I personally find it deeply offensive that we give aid to a country which is not only a human rights abuser, is known for its financial mismanagement and endemic corruption (as per international IFIs), but where the (incredibly large) royal family lives so extravegantly & where they seem to work for the 'state' or some 'foundation' in some capacity or the other.

And as far as the Palestinian refugees are concerned, they are Jordanians insofar as the majority were born in Jordan. Even if they do not qualify as Jordanians in your lexicon, it doesn't mean that they should have to live in the conditions that they are forced to live in, particularly when the perception is that the royal family and officials have so much money to blow. Refugees aren't treated like dogs here, particularly when they contribute to the economy too. Nor should they (as well as other Palestinians in Jordan) be officially discriminated against like they are by the Hashemite regime.

No one is saying that the whole world should live in poverty in sympathy with the refugees of the world. However, like it or not, refugees comprise a large chunk of Jordan's population & they are not going back anytime soon (if ever). Thusit is the perception that such a large segment of the urban population in Jordan that lives in such dismal, disenfranchised conditions while the RF lives so extravegantly for a third world country, that matters.

As far a I'm concerned, The Hashemites are personally responsible for the Palestinians, as it is the poor decisions and visions of grandeur of Abdullah I, Hussain I that put them there to begin with. I agree that Great Britain does share some culpability, yes, since the Hashemites were an instrument of its foreign policy. However, that's a whole other matter & way off-topic.

Sean, actually most "rich, developed western countries" are oligarchies so as for being subject to "public scrutiny and checks and balances" - it really depends, because money talks

 

[Sean.~]

thank god she did in the official wedding, or she would be critiqued or may be ludicrous.

I somehow doubt it. Many Euoropean Queens were the same outfit several times to several different galas and weddings. If they, the Queens of rich, developed countries, can do it, then why can't Rania? I guess because she can get away with spending as much as she likes, when she likes due to the lack of freedom of speech in Jordan, particularly when it comes to the RF.

 

[Sean.~]

Sean, actually most "rich, developed western countries" are oligarchies so as for being subject to "public scrutiny and checks and balances" - it really depends, because money talks

Actually, Jordan is an oligarchy. The royal family, it's hangers on, and the Bedioun chiefs loyal to it hold power. In fact, it's worse than an oligarchy. Conversely, Western European countries and Canada are democracies (far from perfect, I admit), where governments are held to account. In Jordan the King has the final say,and dismisses parliament for years at a time.

 

[Balqis]

Actually, Jordan is an oligarchy. Actually, it's worse than an oligarchy. Conversely, Western European countries and Canada are democracies (far from perfect, I admit), where governments are held to account. Conversely, in Jordan the King has the final say,and dismisses parliament for years at a time.

The only country that can be correctly termed a "democracy" is Switzerland. The rest of the so-called western countries are oligarchies, run by big corporations with a suitable face on the front. Jordan is a monarchy

 

[Sean.~]

The only country that can be correctly termed a "democracy" is Switzerland. The rest are oligarchies, run by big corporations with a suitable face on the front

Well, that's your opinion. Yes, corporations -- particularly the transnational type- wield a fair amount of power, and have held the state hostage on policy issues. However, the (democratic) state and civil society haven't withered away. There is no fait accompli.

 

[Balqis]

Well, that's your opinion. Yes, corporations -- particularly the transnational type- wield a fair amount of power, and have held the state hostage on policy issues. However, the (democratic) state and civil society haven't withered away. There is no fait accompli.

It's not an opinion it is a realistic fact. USA for example is not a democracy, not even a republic, it is run by the select few (big corporations) that control the media etc. It is an oligarchy. Accept it Sean, you would be fighting a losing battle, it's already happened

 

[Sean.~]

It's not an opinion it is a realistic fact. USA for example is not a democracy, not even a republic, it is run by the select few (big corporations) that control the media etc. It is an oligarchy. Accept it Sean, you would be fighting a losing battle, it's already happened

Well, that's a very pessimistic view. And no, as someone who works in the field, I don't accept it (although I'm not American, FYI). I'm no fan of everything American, and it is far from an ideal democracy (the war against Iraq proved that). Corporations and special interest groups (one comes to mind right away, but I shall refrain from naming it) have inordinate amounts of power in the spheres of domestic and foreign policy, but I think it's proposterous and to assert that the US is not a democracy at all.

Anyway, this thread has to do with Rania's "recycling" (lol).

 

[Safaa Batin]

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

You can not eqauate the standard of living of leaders of rich, developed western countries and rich oil monarchies to the lifestyle of the Hashemites, who rule over a resource poor, aid-dependent, third world country.

when people spend they spend depending on how much they have not on country resources, and the royals are not exception although they would better do.


Besides,
no King/Queen or President in the West lives like the Hashemites do.

may be ???? we have to check. but we don't decide to people how to live.

Heads of state in the West are subject to public scrutiny and checks and balances, and are cognizant of public opinion. This is all missing in Jordan. The King isn't accountable.

i don't think so.

Moreover, the heads of state in the West rule/reign in rich, developed countries -- that was my point. They have a larger income base, and people are not living in Third World conditions.

the 3rd world conditions are made by the 1st world.

I personally find it deeply offensive that we give aid to a country which is not only a human rights abuser, is known for its financial mismanagement and endemic corruption (as per international IFIs), but where the (incredibly large) royal family lives so extravagantly & where they seem to work for the 'state' or some 'foundation' in some capacity or the other.

you would better tell that to the coutries which give aid. but I think they know more accurate information than you.


And as far as the Palestinian refugees are concerned, they are Jordanians insofar as the majority were born in Jordan.
Even if they do not qualify as Jordanians in your lexicon, it doesn't mean that they should have to live in the conditions that they are forced to live in, particularly when the perception is that the royal family and officials have so much money to blow.

not my lexicon they are not Jordanian citizens and the citizens from palestanian riginals on average are living in good conditions and may be better than many jordanians of jordanians origins. And the bad country economical conditions applied on all.



Refugees aren't treated like dogs here,

nor here,
if u compare to the palestanian refugee camps in other countries more rich than jordan u will see how much they are in far better conditions in jordan, a counry in a not good economical conditions (Jordan) is the granter number one in the world to refugees.


particularly when they contribute to the economy too. Nor should they (as well as other Palestinians in Jordan) be officially discriminated against like they are by the Hashemite regime.

palestainans became ministers and prime ministers in jordan.

No one is saying that the whole world should live in poverty in sympathy with the refugees of the world.

but one is saying that the hashimites should.

However, like it or not, refugees comprise a large chunk of Jordan's population & they are not going back anytime soon (if ever). Thus it is the perception that such a large segment of the urban population in Jordan that lives in such dismal, disenfranchised conditions while the RF lives so extravagantly for a third world country, that matters.

you are right the refugees should live as the royals .

As far a I'm concerned, The Hashemites are personally responsible for the Palestinians, as it is the poor decisions and visions of grandeur of Abdullah I,
Hussain I that put them there to begin with.

no body is responsible of the deeds of others even their fathers.
لا تزر وازرة وزر اخرى



I agree that Great Britain does share some culpability,

not some - all.

yes, since the Hashemites were an instrument of its foreign policy. However, that's a whole other matter & way off-topic.

 

[Safaa Batin]

I somehow doubt it. Many Euoropean Queens were the same outfit several times to several different galas and weddings. If they, the Queens of rich, developed countries, can do it, then why can't Rania? I guess because she can get away with spending as much as she likes, when she likes due to the lack of freedom of speech in Jordan, particularly when it comes to the RF.

I meant that she would be critiqued by Jordanians ( women in particular) they will say a queen and cant afford a dress for the wedding one will say " why didn't she came to me I will give her one" .

 

[Balqis]

Well, that's a very pessimistic view. And no, as someone who works in the field, I don't accept it (although I'm not American, FYI). I'm no fan of everything American, and it is far from an ideal democracy (the war against Iraq proved that). Corporations and special interest groups (one comes to mind right away, but I shall refrain from naming it) have inordinate amounts of power in the spheres of domestic and foreign policy, but I think it's proposterous and to assert that the US is not a democracy at all.

Anyway, this thread has to do with Rania's "recycling" (lol).

Very true, Sean - I mean the last sentence of course Let's try to stay on topic

 

[Humera]

I dont want to contribute to a discussion thats so off topic but in regards to the democracy issue, lets not be too picky about the word itself. Sure many democracies aren't perfect but people living in such countries, in Canada for example, know how fortunate they are to live in a place that gives them freedoms that millions of people in the world only dream about. It is ridiculous to compare them to middle eastern regimes.

 

[Sean.~]

snip. I had to submitthis post in two parts because the text was too long. I think we're allowed only 1000 characters per post. Safa Batin wrote in the red (in response to my comments in the black), while the black and the blue are my comments. Cheers, Sean.
**********************88

when people spend they spend depending on how much they have not on country resources, and the royals are not exception although they would better do.

And, pray tell, where do the royals derive their incomes from? They are supported financially by the people of the country.The Hashemites are no different. Although the family is wealthy, but where was that money derived from originally? Moreover, the King also receives a civil list, and the royal family and its cronies are the recipients of numerous perks benefits.

Furthermore, contrary to your statements, royals and rulers *are* expected to live withing the resources and the means of their countries. Those who do not are rightly criticized -- the King of Swaziland, the the President of Zimababwe, the King of Jordan, etc. As leaders, they are expected to set an example and show some respect for the public purse, particualarly when their subjects are living on so little. Take the British, RF for example during the War years. Even Mrs. Roosevelt commented on their austerity. In Canada, our GG was even sujbected to a public accounts committe, when her spending was brought into question (and that was spending on official bussines, not on clothes, etc.). Alas, in Jordan no such checks and balances exist. And I hope you are not giong to try and tell me there is a free media or that the King is accountable to parliament in Jordan, etc. I work with agenices in the region, and specialize in economic development, and I know the "freedoms" and living standards of the average Jordanian.


Besides,
no King/Queen or President in the West lives like the Hashemites do.

may be ???? we have to check. but we don't decide to people how to live.
Name me one Western first lady who spends more on clothes than Rania whether in reailty or in perception? And wemost certainly do when they are public figures living off the public purse, and/or beneficiries of large amount of aid. Just like we have structural adjustment programs. Leaders who show disgregard for the public purse (not to mention human rights & political freedoms) and don't adjust their spending/consumption patterns end up ostracized and/or in the dustbins of history -- the Shah of Iran, Suharto, Hussein, etc.

Heads of state in the West are subject to public scrutiny and checks and balances, and are cognizant of public opinion. This is all missing in Jordan. The King isn't accountable.

i don't think so.

Well, then, I'm sorry to say, I think you are mistaken. He isn't accountable. He appoints the majlis/senate, and he has the power to dismiss parliament at will (as he did not so long ago for 2 years). He holds executive power, appoints the PM, appoints the governors, judges, makes cosntitutional amendments, and promulgates legislation (Rania tried to as well a while ago), has the power of veto for all laws, His claim that Jordan isn't ready for real democracy because no one is capable is an assertion used by demagogues, and it is both ludicrous and insulting to Jordanians. The electoral laws for the lower house favour the rural areas, so that beadouin loyalists can get into Parliament and vote the way the RF wants. Quid pro quo.


the 3rd world conditions are made by the 1st world.

Not entirely incorrect, and here we somewhat agree. However, if you subscribe to dependency theory and the "development of underdevelopoment & the like (which, if I'm not mistaken, your comment indicates you do), then you should also agree that families like the Hashemites are the henchmen of the West, placed and maintained in their position to facilitate the economic and stragegic needs of the former. Thus they merely help to perpetuate "3rd world conditions". Better if they're removed, no?

I personally find it deeply offensive that we give aid to a country which is not only a human rights abuser, is known for its financial mismanagement and endemic corruption (as per international IFIs), but where the (incredibly large) royal family lives so extravagantly & where they seem to work for the 'state' or some 'foundation' in some capacity or the other.

you would better tell that to the coutries which give aid. but I think they know more accurate information than you.

I have plenty accurate information since it's what I do for a living. And since my country is a donor country & since it is my tax dollars, I have a right to be deeply offended. Indeed, many here are, especially in the wake of a Canadian being wrongly tortured at the hand of Jordanian authorities at the behest of the Americans. Corruption and skimming within the ruling elite is a huge problem in the country according to international financial organizations and lenders (published). So, I don't need to "tell" anyone. They already know. However, rest assured, we too lobby for change and more tied aid.

And as far as the Palestinian refugees are concerned, they are Jordanians insofar as the majority were born in Jordan.
Even if they do not qualify as Jordanians in your lexicon, it doesn't mean that they should have to live in the conditions that they are forced to live in, particularly when the perception is that the royal family and officials have so much money to blow.

not my lexicon they are not Jordanian citizens and the citizens from palestanian riginals on average are living in good conditions and may be better than many jordanians of jordanians origins. And the bad country economical conditions applied on all.

Good economic conditions in the refugee camps? Actually most live in poverty, overcrowdedness, and unhygenic conditions. They are the poorest areas of the city, and a dozen or more people per unit is not unusual. Yes, Jordan has done more to assimilate Palestinians within the country than other Arab countries (although it is responsible for their plight due to many of its foreign policy decisions) However, in recent years, there has been an upserge in nationalism due to the changing demographics. Palestinians are seen as 'taking over' by the 'natives' and are thus being subject to official discrimination and hostility. Even Rania has been subjected to hostility due to her Palestinian background. The ironic thing is that if they were "go home" as is oft demanded of them, Jordan couldn't survive. It needs their human capital.

 

[Sean.~]

Refugees aren't treated like dogs here.

nor here,
if u compare to the palestanian refugee camps in other countries more rich than jordan u will see how much they are in far better conditions in jordan, a counry in a not good economical conditions (Jordan) is the granter number one in the world to refugees.

It's subjective, of course. It depends on what ones definition of "good conditions" is, and ones opinion of Hussein's bloody actions against them in the 1970s. In any case, judging by the way the RF lives, one would assume that the country does enjoy good economic conditions. And *of course* it had to accept to the refugees, as they not only came from next door, but Jordan helped make them refugees through its foreign policy decisions.

particularly when they contribute to the economy too. Nor should they (as well as other Palestinians in Jordan) be officially discriminated against like they are by the Hashemite regime.

palestainans became ministers and prime ministers in jordan.

For political equalibrium, and to maintain the Hashemite status quo. It's called co-opting. Moreover, it doesn't mean that they are not subject to discrimination. Indeed, some members of ethnic minorities in rise to the political elite here & in other places of the West, too (often for the same reason), but it doesn't mean that they are not subject to discrimination as a group -- both officially and unofficially.

No one is saying that the whole world should live in poverty in sympathy with the refugees of the world.

but one is saying that the hashimite should.
Not at all. What one is saying is that the Hashemite should strike an equalibrium. And tone down the excessivness (see the article I will post in my next post as an example of Hashemite excess).


However, like it or not, refugees comprise a large chunk of Jordan's population & they are not going back anytime soon (if ever). Thus it is the perception that such a large segment of the urban population in Jordan that lives in such dismal, disenfranchised conditions while the RF lives so extravagantly for a third world country, that matters.

you are right the refugees should live as the royals .

I neither said or insinuated that, so the gratuitous commentary is not necessary. I'm talking about perceptions -- ie the Jordanian people suffer while the King and Queen live it up with their designer hair cuts (see below), gold and diamond encrusted shoes (another scandal), and million dollar tiles in one of their numerous holiday homes.

As far a I'm concerned, The Hashemites are personally responsible for the Palestinians, as it is the poor decisions and visions of grandeur of Abdullah I,
Hussain I that put them there to begin with.

no body is responsible of the deeds of others even their fathers.
لا تزر وازرة وزر اخرى
Well, in this case that's a cop out. He, as King and the executive authority of the country, is responisble. He is responsible to make it right for them, just like North Americans are responsible to make it right for our Native peoples, the US for it's African American population in the 1960s and 1970s, and Germany to victims of the Holocaust.

And, IMO, he has only continued in the tradition of poor decision making. Paying lip service won't resolve the conflict. But then again a resolution may not be in his best interest -- yet. After all, the country has no oil or real comparative advantage in anything. With peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, Jordan, a resource poor country dependent too a large extent on educated Palestinians (who may "go home" as they've been told to), will lose it's strategic importance, it 's $$$ for making peace with Israel, and a large segment of its workforce. I doubt the Hashemites would survive. Even elements within the US -- it's chief benefactor doesn't have confidence in the stability of the monarchy. IIRC, civil servants in the pentagon and the state deparment were taking bets on how long the monarchy in Jordan would last. One of the pitfalls of the Hashemites, IMO will be their excessive spending habits -- whether real or perceived.


I agree that Great Britain does share some culpability,
yes, since the Hashemites were an instrument of its foreign policy. However, that's a whole other matter & way off-topic.

not some - all.

What, for creating Jordan and picking Abdullah I as it's King, lol? In any case that's your interpretation of history. It's easy to blame the 'colonial powers', but there were other factors as well. History is never that simple. Egypt and Jordan -- both power hungry at the time -- share an equal amount of responsibility too.

Thanks for the engaging discussion/debate. You do make some salient points, and I'm just countering them with my own views. If I come across as adversarial or nasty, that's not my intent.

 

[Sean.~]

Just one example of their excesses.



June 6, 2002 -- Lipo job lightens king's belly

IN the world of narcissistic royals, Jordan's King Abdullah - though he
is described as a "man of the people" - just might take the cake.

Abdullah, monarch of a nation where millions live in poverty, squandered
a small fortune late last year to fly a hairdresser and a plastic surge
on to his London house to give him a makeover, sources report.

The king decided he was getting a little thick around the middle, so he
had his "people" research plastic surgeons who specialized in liposuctio
n.

"He found Dr. Harvey Abrams in Los Angeles," said a source. The year bef
ore, Abrams had become famous when he was profiled by the tabloid televi
sion show "Hard Copy," which dubbed him "the Lipo Lieutenant."

Abrams has a long and guarded list of Hollywood celebrities he nips and
tucks, which impressed Abdullah. But "the king didn't want to travel to
America because it would cause so much press attention," our source said
"So a couple of weeks ago, he flew [Abrams] to London to get liposucti
on on his stomach. The surgery was performed in a London hospital."

Abrams' office declined comment.

Abdullah is no stranger to flying doctors or other personal groomers to
London. Just last November, the vain royal had hairdresser to the stars
Stephen Knoll visit his townhouse there to give him and his wife, Queen
Rania, a haircut.

"Stephen cut both of their hair and then went straight back to New York,
" another snitch said.

Knoll's publicist, Susan Portnoy, acknowledged Knoll was flown to London
by Abdullah, but said: "Stephen was there for Queen Rania."

The Jordanian Consulate here didn't return calls.

Abdullah's "man of the people" reputation is partly based on the fact th
at, before he became king three years ago, he married Rania - who not on
ly was of common descent but is Palestinian. In Jordan, Palestinians are
often considered outsiders and second-class citizens.


groups.yahoo.com/group/kingabdullahthesecond/ message/96?source=1 - 15k -

 

[Sean.~]

I dont want to contribute to a discussion thats so off topic but in regards to the democracy issue, lets not be too picky about the word itself. Sure many democracies aren't perfect but people living in such countries, in Canada for example, know how fortunate they are to live in a place that gives them freedoms that millions of people in the world only dream about. It is ridiculous to compare them to middle eastern regimes.

Exactly. Well put, Humera. (Why couldn't I say that ;-)?) And if Canada is an "oligarchy" then what on earth is Jordan???

 

[Balqis]

Just one example of their excesses.

June 6, 2002 -- Lipo job lightens king's belly

IN the world of narcissistic royals, Jordan's King Abdullah - though he
is described as a "man of the people" - just might take the cake.

Abdullah, monarch of a nation where millions live in poverty, squandered
a small fortune late last year to fly a hairdresser and a plastic surge
on to his London house to give him a makeover, sources report.

The king decided he was getting a little thick around the middle, so he
had his "people" research plastic surgeons who specialized in liposuctio
n.

"He found Dr. Harvey Abrams in Los Angeles," said a source. The year bef
ore, Abrams had become famous when he was profiled by the tabloid televi
sion show "Hard Copy," which dubbed him "the Lipo Lieutenant."

Abrams has a long and guarded list of Hollywood celebrities he nips and
tucks, which impressed Abdullah. But "the king didn't want to travel to
America because it would cause so much press attention," our source said
"So a couple of weeks ago, he flew [Abrams] to London to get liposucti
on on his stomach. The surgery was performed in a London hospital."

Abrams' office declined comment.

Abdullah is no stranger to flying doctors or other personal groomers to
London. Just last November, the vain royal had hairdresser to the stars
Stephen Knoll visit his townhouse there to give him and his wife, Queen
Rania, a haircut.

"Stephen cut both of their hair and then went straight back to New York,
" another snitch said.

Knoll's publicist, Susan Portnoy, acknowledged Knoll was flown to London
by Abdullah, but said: "Stephen was there for Queen Rania."

The Jordanian Consulate here didn't return calls.

Abdullah's "man of the people" reputation is partly based on the fact th
at, before he became king three years ago, he married Rania - who not on
ly was of common descent but is Palestinian. In Jordan, Palestinians are
often considered outsiders and second-class citizens.


groups.yahoo.com/group/kingabdullahthesecond/ message/96?source=1 - 15k -

It doesn't matter whether King Abdullah flies in a liposuction surgeon or a hairstylist to Jordan every week, what does matter is the future. The billions of dollars in aid given to Jordan by the west is not going to stop regardless of these supposed extravagances. There is no slippery slope to destruction. The Hashemites will not be overthrown from within or without no matter what. All of the criticisms directed against the King, such as lack of free speech, human rights abuses, "despotic" control of parliament etc. etc, are all equally irrelevent. It does not matter how offended or outraged narrow-minded people are at the alleged crimes or misdeeds of the monarchy, all this negative spin amounts to just preaching to the choir. The real issue is the future and the direction that the King is taking his country and the region. The big picture demands a completely new approach, and in order to accomplish his mission, the King must play by new rules. The 20th century is over. The world of His late Majesty King Hussein is gone. Only King Abdullah knows how to create the new order necessary for the Middle East to evolve beyond the conflicts and chaos of the old order. The powers that be in the west realize this and as a result, the King's position is secure. There are of course many people who do not want Jordan to evolve and transform the Middle East. Some of these people, like the old guard in Jordan try to block the king politically and so he dismisses or censures them. Some people like the Islamist fundamentalist terrorists try to stop the King by bringing death and destruction, and so they are killed or imprisoned. Still others like the traditionalist Arab press try to bring the King down by criticizing him in the media, so he shuts them up and doesn't let them spread hate and disinformation. And then there are those in the west (and on the internet) who also resist the idea of a new Jordan and Middle East and so they try to diminish the King by harping on how much money he spends flying in surgeons and hairdressers. All of these people have two things in common: their cause is fruitless and their efforts are in vain. Things must change in the Middle East and it doesn't just include the issue of poverty. The poor and disinfranchised in Jordan are guaranteed to remain that way if the old order is allowed to return, but if the King is able to succeed in his mission who knows what the future can hold. Petty criticism and pessimistic interpretation do nothing but make critics and pessimists feel good about themselves. Hope, optimism, and a new vision for the future are the only things that can change the Middle East.