General Questions and Information about the Danish Royal Family


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:previous: so Daisy picks who it is if she and Frederik are not available? Huh...interesting. :whistling:
 
I actually just had a general question about royal member rank.

In the BRF there is the complicated policy about rank and who curtseys to who and when. Like if Kate is with William then she takes on his rank and blood princesses like Beatrice and Eugenie curtsey to her. But if Kate is alone then she has to curtsey to blood princesses. So she gets demoted in rank if that makes sense. Kate is being called Princess Catherine which is technically incorrect. She is Catherine, Princess of Wales. If someone wants to put princess in front of her name it is Princess William of Wales.

Is there something this convoluted with the DRF? Like does Mary's rank depend on whether she's with Frederik or not...is she a princess in her own right even though she is a married-in commoner. Like she is not Mary, Crown Princess of Denmark or Princess Frederik of Denmark.

Sorry if that is confusing. I am just curious. I saw some posts about how Mary's title is akin to Kate's title and how it works the same and I did not think that was right.

Muhler - Maybe you can address my confusing question! Tusind Tak!
 
:previous: I can. 😄

The DRF system is radically different from the BRF system.

It's really very simple: Mary (and our Marie for that matter and beforehand PH as well) holds the exact same rank in regards to the protocol as the royal she is married to - always. I.e. the Crown Prince.
Except in some Constitutional matters.


The only ones in the entire country Mary does not outrank at any time, are QMII and Frederik. - And the Rigsforstander if Mary hasn't been appointed.
She even outranks the Prime Minister and the Chairman of the Parliament (who outranks the PM.)
Mary is always the Crown Princess and it doesn't matter if she is with Frederik, if she is alone or if she is together with QMII and Frederik is not present.

So when Mary is going solo, she is not princess Frederik, she is still the Crown Princess. And as such she outranks everybody else present. And also because being the highest ranking DRF member present, she is the direct representative for the Monarch.

Examples: When M&F are together, Frederik outranks Mary slightly, because he is the Heir. But if Joachim and Christian are also present Mary outranks them as well according to the protocol. Mary also outranks Benedikte.
Now, the DRF are not as formal in regards to interactions between family members. A kiss on the cheek usually suffice. Except when the show is on. Then Mary (and Marie) curtsy to QMII. But Benedikte does not. Because it would be seen as somewhat odd by the Danes if Benedikte should curtsy to her sister.
And AFAIK the DRF do not bow or curtsy in private. There a kiss on the cheek will do. They are after all family.

Another example: Mary is solo, no Frederik. But Joachim and Benedikte are present. Mary still outranks both of them. And if the protocol was strictly observed, Joachim should bow and Benedikte curtsy to Mary.
Also, in this situation Mary walks in front.

And when the time comes and Christian becomes crown prince, Mary will still outrank him - except when he is Regent. Because while Mary will always outrank her son, (until he becomes king, if Mary outlives Frederik) in regards to the protocol, it's another matter when it's in regards to the Constitution. You may recall when PH had his fit and ran off to France, because he was annoyed with being eclipsed by his son.
QMII was off duty, so Frederik stepped in in her stead at the New Year Court for the diplomatic corps. That's because the Heir automatically steps in when the Monarch is away or incapacitated. That is crystal clear in the Constitution.
As such it was Frederik who received the well wishes from the doyen of the diplomatic corps, and in return wished the diplomats a happy New Year. Not PH. Because Frederik acted on behalf of the Monarch in a state affair - dealing with foreign diplomats.

And that takes me to back to Mary. Let us say that both QMII and Frederik are off duty at the next New Year court for the diplomatic corps and she is taking over. Then she will be both the host on behalf of the family, because she is the Crown Princess, but as as the highest ranking DRF member present she will also speak on behalf of QMII and Denmark. I.e. she acts in a Constitutional capacity.
She doesn't need to be appointed Rigsforstander to do that, especially as Christian will still not be crown prince.

When Mary acts as Rigsforstander, no one in the country outranks her.
Not according to the protocol and not according to the Constitution. She is the acting head of state.

- Hmm, I may have made this rather simple explanation more complicated than it really is. Oh well.

ADDED: At present Marie outranks everybody else in the entire country, except QMII, M&F and Joachim. And that's because she holds the same rank as Joachim in regards to the protocol.
That also includes Benedikte, except when Benedikte acts as Rigsforstander.
 
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:previous:

Muhler...thank you so much for this amazing and detailed breakdown of how it all works!

One more question, how does it work military wise given Mary holds a military rank. She still outranks let's say Joachim if they are at the same military event?

So when she handled the Flag Day events a few years ago she was the highest ranking person there?

Thanks again for taking the time to explain all of this!!

:flowers:
 
I actually just had a general question about royal member rank.

In the BRF there is the complicated policy about rank and who curtseys to who and when. Like if Kate is with William then she takes on his rank and blood princesses like Beatrice and Eugenie curtsey to her. But if Kate is alone then she has to curtsey to blood princesses. So she gets demoted in rank if that makes sense. Kate is being called Princess Catherine which is technically incorrect. She is Catherine, Princess of Wales. If someone wants to put princess in front of her name it is Princess William of Wales.
Although this is the wrong thread, a correction is needed: the only people the BRF members curtsey/bow to are The King and Queen. The precedence you were referring to is only who goes into a room first - Royal Highnesses do not curtsey to each other. Catherine is "HRH The Princess of Wales" - no first name is used. She would be "Catherine, Princess of Wales" only if she and William divorce.
 
She's actually just The Crown Princess, a title she gained by marriage. Her name is technically completely irrelevant.
 
Well since her name is Mary that's why I included it with title...and that's how she's addressed. Of course I perfectly am aware that she acquired the title of Crown Princess upon her marriage. I was never implying otherwise.
 
:previous:

Muhler...thank you so much for this amazing and detailed breakdown of how it all works!

One more question, how does it work military wise given Mary holds a military rank. She still outranks let's say Joachim if they are at the same military event?

So when she handled the Flag Day events a few years ago she was the highest ranking person there?

Thanks again for taking the time to explain all of this!!

:flowers:

You are welcome.

That depends on whether Mary and Joachim (or only one them) are there as royals or as officers.

If they happen to meet in connection with an exercise and are both in uniform, Mary as a captain will salute Joachim, who is a brigadier.
In this case Joachim outranks Mary. Or more correctly: Joachim's military rank, outranks Mary's military rank. She is still the Crown Princess. (*)
But if they are both there representing the DRF, then Mary outranks Joachim. Because Mary is the Crown Princess and the direct representative for QMII, who is also the Commander-in-Chief. And as Mary usually does not wear a uniform unless it's a specific Home Guard event, there ought to be no confusion.

Anyone in need of an aspirin? 👅
Good because now it gets a bit more confusing.
This is a very hypothetical example:
Let's say Mary, the captain, is out crawling through mud and Joachim the Prince is dropping by. (DRF members sometimes visits major exercises to show the flag.) Then Joachim outranks Mary, because he is the direct representative for QMII.
I can't see that happen though, because why send Joachim to show the flag, when Mary is there?
She can basically at any time wipe the mud of her face and declare that she is now there as the Crown Princess and everybody kowtows to her.

So to sum up: Joachim only outranks Mary if he is Rigsforstander or they are both in uniform and there as officers on duty.

- Joachim could be heading a group of fourteen generals, marching them in circles around Fredensborg - happens all the time, you know. ;) 👅
If Mary approach them, wearing cut off jeans, sandals, a tank top smeared with paint and dust in her hair because she is painting the attic, all these generals and Joachim, who otherwise believe the sun only rise in the morning because they have ordered it, will show Mary the proper respect befitting the Crown Princess. Straighten up and saluting her. - And then act like normal human beings. No snapping their heels together every five seconds after that. After all this isn't a scene from Sissi, Die Kaiserin.
Generals can't figure out how to stand to attention anyway. They've forgotten how to.

(*) Just as when Frederik was serving in the North Atlantic. Even though he was Crown Prince, he was not in command of the ship, but a serving officer, answerable to his senior officer, the captain, the Navy Operational Command, The admiral/commodore in charge of the Danish ships in the North Atlantic, the navy admiral, the defense chief, the Minister of Defense, The Prime Minister and finally QMII.
 
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She's actually just The Crown Princess, a title she gained by marriage. Her name is technically completely irrelevant.
I disagree with this personally. I think that female married-ins should retain their given names which is the case in Denmark (and Sweden) but not the case in the UK.

On the website kongehuset.dk, on Marie's profile page she is referred to as:

  • HRH Princess Marie
  • Marie Agathe Odile, Her Royal Highness Princess of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat
  • Princess Marie
Mary's page has:

  • HRH The Crown Princess
  • Mary Elizabeth, Her Royal Highness Crown Princess of Denmark, Countess of Monpezat
  • Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Mary Elizabeth of Denmark
She is not referred to as Crown Princess Mary on her profile page, but I infer that it is acceptable to truncate Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Mary Elizabeth of Denmark to HRH Crown Princess Mary or Crown Princess Mary.

P.S.
Hopefully Charles or William will change the rule and allow married-ins, if indeed they are even given royal titles, to be Prince/ss X, Duchess X, Princess X, Duchess of Y. Although it should be noted that the UK was ahead of the curve when it came to female monarchs and marriage to commoners.
 
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She's actually just The Crown Princess, a title she gained by marriage. Her name is technically completely irrelevant.

Crown Princess Mary and The Crown Princess are equally correct.

Most European royal houses do not use the strict British and French rule that the given name is always omitted from the titles of senior royals.

See for instance the website of the Danish Royal House:

On 14 May 2004, on the occasion of the marriage to His Royal Highness Crown Prince Frederik of Denmark, she became Her Royal Highness Crown Princess Mary Elizabeth of Denmark. The marriage ceremony took place in Copenhagen Cathedral, and the wedding festivities were held at Fredensborg Palace.

https://www.kongehuset.dk/en/the-royal-family/hrh-the-crown-princess/#


...is she a princess in her own right even though she is a married-in commoner. Like she is not Mary, Crown Princess of Denmark or Princess Frederik of Denmark.

The term "princess in her own right" seems to refer to the British system of titulature and has no meaning in Denmark. Whether an individual belongs to the royal family by birth or by marriage, his or her title is bestowed or removed at the pleasure of the monarch.

It has always been the rule in official settings that wives use their own forenames, not those of their husbands, so there is no Crown Princess Frederik.
 
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