Duke Carlos Javier and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma 2: Dec. 2022 -

[MAfan]

Arms of the House of Bourbon-Parma​

Welcome to Duke Carlos Javier and the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma's
Thread, Part 2

Commencing December 29th, 2022 ​

The previous thread can be found here
​

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[MarieAmelie_95]

Statement from the Royal House of Bourbon-Parma:

Official engagement of HRH Prince Amaury of Bourbon-Parma to the Noble Pélagie of Mac Mahon of the Dukes of Magenta!

The wedding will take place in the summer of 2023!

Sources:
Article and images on Point de vue

 

[Somebody]

Are you sure the future bride is a highness?

 

[Biri]

Congratulations to the fiances!

 

[iceflower]

Prince Charles-Emmanuel, Princess Constance and Princess Zita of Bourbon-Parma attended the annual mass in honour of the anniversary date of the death of Louis XVI at the Chapelle Expiatoire in Paris on January 22:


** anp gallery **

 

[MarieAmelie_95]

Past (but new to me) activities of HRH Princess Marie-Françoise in the past years:

On 17 September 2018, Princess Marie-Françoise visited the "Imam Sadr Foundation" in Lebanon. The Princess also spoke to various personalities and visited the foundation's facility. Princess Marie-Françoise lives between Paris and Lebanon.

Sources: Imam Sadr Foundation

-----

On 10 December 2019, Princess Marie-Françoise attended a ball held in honor of Saint Nicholas (Bal de la Saint-Nicolas) in Paris. The ball was organized by her association "Malte Liban", of which she is President. She has presented awards to various prominent members of the Association.

Sources: Bal de la Saint-Nicolas 1, Bal de la Saint-Nicolas 2

-----

In December 2019, Princess Marie-Françoise also attended another ball, at the military school in Paris. The article (most likely written at the end of 2022) also reports that Princess Marie-Françoise attended the Bal de la Saint-Nicolas in December 2022, canceled in 2020 and 2021 due to COVID-19.

Sources: Les Lys de France

-----

On 28 September 2022, Princess Marie-Françoise attended, on the occasion of the 35th anniversary of "Malte Liban", a religious service in the Church of St. Elisabeth of Hungary. The mass was held in thanksgiving to the association of Princess Marie-Françoise, who at the end of the service prayed aloud to the Blessed Virgin and asked for the protection of St. Michael, reading a handwritten speech of hers.

Sources: Les Lys de France, Malte Liban

Video

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Explanation by the Raad van State (est. 1531 - the highest advisor of the Government as well the supreme Court of Adminsitraton - The King is president of this High College of State):

The Nobility Act
In 1996 Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme was incorporated into the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. The title of Prince and the predicate Royal Highness and the surname De Bourbon de Parme were established to him and his male descendants. As a result, the Nobility Act is applicable to Hugo Klynstra and the title and the predicate proceeds automatically with the change of surname. The way in which the paternity of the child has been established does not matter for the Nobility Act, is confirmed by the Raad van State.

The Royal House De Bourbon de Parme
The change of surname does not mean that Hugo Klynstra is now also a member of the Royal House De Bourbon de Parme. That is a private matter of the House itself. The Nobility Act has no jurisdiction about that.

The Royal House of the Netherlands
Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme is no member of the Royal House of the Netherlands. The change of the surname of his extramarital son therefore has no effect concerning the Royal House of the Netherlands.

Background
Hugo Klynstra was born in 1997. He is an extramarital son of Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme. When he was born, he got the surname of his mother: Klynstra. When Hugo Klynstra came of age, he filed a request to the Minister of Justice for a change of the surname. The Minister agreed to this request in 2015.

Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme objected to this decision at the Court of Justice of The Hague. In November 2016 the Court ruled that the objections of Prince Carlos against the name change could not succeed. In today's ruling, the Raad van State confirms that judgment of the Court.

https://www.raadvanstate.nl/pers/pe...icht.html?id=1120&summary_only=&category_id=8

In regard to the bolded sentence: Did Carlos and his siblings carry a different surname prior to 1996?

I suppose he will not be Member of the Dutch Royal family?

As a grandchild of Princess Irene of the Netherlands, Prince Hugo de Bourbon de Parme is a member of the Dutch Royal Family (but not the Royal House):

https://www.royal-house.nl/members-royal-house/royal-family/

The Royal family consists of the members of the Royal House, plus: Princess Mabel, the three children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien, Prince Maurits, Princess Marilène, Prince Bernhard, Princess Annette, Prince Pieter-Christiaan, Princess Anita, Prince Floris, Princess Aimée and their children, and Princess Irene and Princess Christina (1947-2019), their children, daughters- and sons-in-law, and grandchildren.​

Last month the duke of Parma was interviewed by El Español. Among other things, he was asked why his eldest son (previously known as Hugo Klynstra as he was born illegitimately, now prince Hugo of Bourbon-Parma) isn't his heir. Carlos explained that while he has never kept his eldest son hidden and supported him throughout his life (financially at least, I suppose), the house laws do not permit him to be his heir; therefore, his youngest son Carlos Enrique is prepared to take follow in his father's footsteps as (future) head of the Bourbon-Parma family and Carlist movement.

He was begging the question. It was his own decision to revise or not revise the "house law".

This link shows a bundle of requests for incorporation into the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. From Devivere, De Bourbon de Parme, Von Balluseck and De Lange van Bergen.

Page 4 and 5 shows the request of the four children of Princess Irene:

[...]

that the Nobility Act states in Article 8 that incorporation into the Nobility is possible for persons whom already hold Dutch citizenship, when a request has been submitted before 1 August 1999 and the requestee descends from a family which belongs to the legally recognized nobility of a state with a comparable statute of nobility,

[...]

that the branch De Bourbon de Parme is a branch of the reigning Royal House of Spain,

that Spain is a state with a legally recognized nobility and a comparable statute of nobility,

therefore respectfully requests Your Majesty to incorporate them into the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands as Prince (Princess) de Bourbon de Parme with the to this title attached predicate of Royal Highness.

11 January 1996,
Wijk bij Duurstede,

Carlos de Bourbon de Parme [signed]

Margarita de Bourbon de Parme [signed]

Jaime de Bourbon de Parme [signed]

Maria Carolina de Bourbon de Parme [signed]

I see no foundation for the assertion in this Dutch official document that Carlos and his siblings belonged to the Spanish royal family in 1996. Did the Dutch government not consult the Spanish government on the matter? Had they done so, surely the Spanish government would have directed them to the Royal Decrees of 1981 and 1987.

The latter decree even includes a provision specifically intended to outlaw Carlos's father's usage of Spanish royal titles.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1981-28756
https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1987-25284

ETA: Apologies, I misread. I see it was Carlos and his siblings, not the Dutch government, who claimed they belonged to the royal family of Spain.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

I see no foundation for the assertion in this Dutch official document that Carlos and his siblings belonged to the Spanish royal family in 1996. Did the Dutch government not consult the Spanish government on the matter? Had they done so, surely the Spanish government would have directed them to the Royal Decrees of 1981 and 1987.

The latter decree even includes a provision specifically intended to outlaw Carlos's father's usage of Spanish royal titles.

https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1981-28756
https://www.boe.es/buscar/doc.php?id=BOE-A-1987-25284

I don’t think the document is literally saying that Carlos and his family were members of the Spanish royal house, but rather that his house is a branch of the Spanish royal house which it actually is. The Bourbon Parma’s are a branch of the Spanish royal house.

As a grandchild of Princess Irene of the Netherlands, Prince Hugo de Bourbon de Parme is a member of the Dutch Royal Family (but not the Royal House):

https://www.royal-house.nl/members-royal-house/royal-family/

The Royal family consists of the members of the Royal House, plus: Princess Mabel, the three children of Prince Constantijn and Princess Laurentien, Prince Maurits, Princess Marilène, Prince Bernhard, Princess Annette, Prince Pieter-Christiaan, Princess Anita, Prince Floris, Princess Aimée and their children, and Princess Irene and Princess Christina (1947-2019), their children, daughters- and sons-in-law, and grandchildren.​

He was begging the question. It was his own decision to revise or not revise the "house law".

Should it have been changed?

 

[MarieAmelie_95]

Announcement from the Luxembourg Grand-Ducal Family:

HRH Princess Marie-Gabrielle, Princess of Luxembourg, Princess of Nassau, Princess of Bourbon-Parma, died on 10 February 2023 at the age of 97, at Ledreborg Castle, Copenhagen, Denmark.

HRH Princess Marie-Gabrielle was the fourth daughter of Grand Duchess Charlotte of Luxembourg and Prince Consort Felix, also Prince of Bourbon-Parma.

Marie-Gabrielle's funeral will be held on 18 February 2023 at Ledreborg Castle. The service will start at 11 in the morning.

May Princess Marie-Gabrielle's soul rest in peace for eternity.

Sources: Official website of the Grand-Ducal Family, The Luxembourg Times

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I don’t think the document is literally saying that Carlos and his family were members of the Spanish royal house, but rather that his house is a branch of the Spanish royal house which it actually is. The Bourbon Parma’s are a branch of the Spanish royal house.

The petition requested "incorporation" into the Dutch nobility, which as the document mentions requires that the "requestee descends from a family which belongs to the legally recognized nobility of a state with a comparable statute of nobility". Thus, the implicit claim was that Carlos and his siblings belonged to the "legally recognized nobility of the state" of Spain - which was not true.

However, I did misread Duc_et_Pair's post - the document was the petition submitted by Carlos and his siblings, so it was they (not the Dutch government) who made that claim.

Duc_et_Pair indicated in the Dutch forum that the Dutch government realized the siblings' claim to belong to the legally recognized Spanish nobility was untrue (and besides, Spain's nobility was not a "comparable system" to the Netherlands, which is another requirement for incorporation). Instead, they justified the siblings' incorporation by reference to the Bourbon de Parme family's membership in the legally recognized nobility of Luxembourg:

The case was "won" by the Arrêté Grand-Ducal of November 5th 1919 with which Félix Marie Vincent of Bourbon-Parma was incorporated into the Luxembourgian Nobility with the surname de Bourbon de Parme, the hereditary title Prince de Bourbon de Parme and the prefix Altesse Royale and subsequently upon him was conferred the title Prince de Luxembourg.

As the Luxembourg and Belgian Nobiliary systems are a spin-off from the Nobility of the Kingdom of the Netherlands of 1815, there was no doubt that the family de Bourbon de Parme indeed appears in a "comparable system of Nobility" and holds a royal rank.

The Dutch incorporated the four royals with exact the same surname as in Luxembourg: de Bourbon de Parme, the same title and the same prefix.

Yes indeed. The objections were that France and Spain had no "comparable system of Nobility". For Spain their father was just Don Carlos Hugo de Borbón-Parma y Bourbon-Busset. Undoubtedly an enormous Bourbon pedigree but effectively not registered with any royal or noble title anno 1996. The justification indeed was found in Luxembourg.

 

[iceflower]

Princess Maria Pia attended the presentation of a new book by Baroness Nadine de Rothschild in Paris:


** Pic ** pdv article **

 

[MarieAmelie_95]

Other past activities:

On 25 July 2022, Prince Sixte-Henri met part of his Political Secretariat ("Secretaría Politica") in the Château de Lignières, France, on the occasion of his 82nd birthday a few days earlier. Princess Marie-Françoise was also present.

Sources/Photos: La Esperanza

 

[iceflower]

Members of the Grand-Ducal Family of Luxembourg and the Holstein-Ledreborg Family today, May 2, attended a mass at the Saint-Michel Church in Luxembourg in memory Princess Marie-Gabrielle, Princess of Luxembourg, Princess of Nassau, Princess of Bourbon-Parma, who had died in February:


** monarchie: Messe en mémoire de S.A.R. la Princesse Marie-Gabrielle **

 

[iceflower]

Prince Carlos celebrated his first communion at the Sint-Jacobus de Meerderekerk in Den Haag today, June 4.

Among the guests were King Willem-Alexander as one of his godfathers, grandmother Princess Irene, Princess Beatrix and many other family members:


** robinutrecht.photoshelter gallery ** gtresnews gallery ** rex gallery ** ppe gallery **

 

[Somebody]

A great turn out. How lovely to see Tjalling as well.

Princess Beatrix seemed to have some trouble with the stairs. I guess that is one of the reasons while she is often preffering trousers over a skirt these days,

 

[An Ard Ri]

Prince Carlos celebrated his first communion at the Sint-Jacobus de Meerderekerk in Den Haag today, June 4.

Among the guests were King Willem-Alexander as one of his godfathers, grandmother Princess Irene, Princess Beatrix and many other family members:

What a lovely Family turn out for Prince Carlos's Holy Communion

 

[kalnel]

Princess Irene and the other woman in the picture looked a little hesitant about those stairs, too.

 

[MarieAmelie_95]

On June 10th, Princess Amélie was a guest on the French show "Quelle Époque!": she presented her new book "L'Ambition" during the show.

Amélie also opened up about her relationship with her former and late husband Igor Bogdanoff and her former husband's late brother, Grichka:

Igor Bogdanoff “mystérieux” : son ex femme Amélie de Bourbon-Parme évoque leur relation - Gala

Mariée à Igor Bogdanoff de 2009 à 2018, elle a évoqué sa relation avec le vulgarisateur scientifique. Interrogée sur le "mystère" qui entourait son ex-mari, l’écrivaine a assuré qu’il était "étrange". Toutefois, elle admirait "son génie, son intelligence, sa culture".

[...]

"[Igor] formait un binôme avec son frère qui était indestructible […], qui les isolait et les rendait presque inaccessibles à certaines choses", a-t-elle analysé. Questionnée sur une possible jalousie, l’historienne a acquiescé, avant de compléter : "Peut-être que [le frère] aussi était jaloux. Au fond, c’était admis : dans une famille, il y a toujours un concurrent, une belle-mère, un frère, une sœur."

[...]

Sources/Videos: Voici, Purepeople, Programme

 

[iceflower]

Princess Constance attended Monika Bacardi's Summer Jungle Birthday Party in Saint Tropez, France on July 25, 2023:


** Pic 1 ** Pic 2 **

 

[Tatiana Maria]

On June 10th, Princess Amélie was a guest on the French show "Quelle Époque!": she presented her new book "L'Ambition" during the show.

Amélie also opened up about her relationship with her former and late husband Igor Bogdanoff and her former husband's late brother, Grichka:

Igor Bogdanoff “mystérieux” : son ex femme Amélie de Bourbon-Parme évoque leur relation - Gala


Sources/Videos: Voici, Purepeople, Programme

Given that Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme said that his opposition to his oldest, out of wedlock son Hugo taking his surname and title was rooted in house laws, and so not personal considerations, shouldn't he have publicly objected to Amélie taking her father's title and surname, since her father likewise never married her mother? Or has he?

 

[MarieAmelie_95]

Given that Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme said that his opposition to his oldest, out of wedlock son Hugo taking his surname and title was rooted in house laws, and so not personal considerations, shouldn't he have publicly objected to Amélie taking her father's title and surname, since her father likewise never married her mother? Or has he?

Prince Michel recognized her as his daughter, who assumed the surname "- of Bourbon-Parma" and the title of "HRH Princess". The Head of the House of Bourbon-Parma can personally decide whether or not to grant the title to children born out of wedlock, however this is limited to very rare exceptions, because usually children born out of wedlock are not recognised. Apparently, however, Prince Michel has obtained permission to pass on his title to his daughter.

 

[Somebody]

Given that Prince Carlos de Bourbon de Parme said that his opposition to his oldest, out of wedlock son Hugo taking his surname and title was rooted in house laws, and so not personal considerations, shouldn't he have publicly objected to Amélie taking her father's title and surname, since her father likewise never married her mother? Or has he?

Has he ever been asked? I don't think he 'approved' her use of the title, however, he isn't going around denouncing those who use the title either it seems. For example, I don't recall him commenting or the name (or title?) of Victoria, the daughter of prince Henri of Bourbon-Parma and his now wife princess Gabriela, born archduchess of Austria.

The case with his son was a legal one, in which his son applied to the Dutch court to be granted the predicate and title of his father based on Dutch nobility law. So, therefore he had to take a stance. In all other cases, he may have let it known to those involved whether he agrees or not but he has no means to enforce it (I'd think).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The case with his son was a legal one, in which his son applied to the Dutch court to be granted the predicate and title of his father based on Dutch nobility law. So, therefore he had to take a stance. In all other cases, he may have let it known to those involved whether he agrees or not but he has no means to enforce it (I'd think).

But did he need to take a stance in court on his son's application? I'm not familiar with the court procedure in that case, but from your prior reply I had gotten the impression it was his own decision to become involved.

While the first 'application' to change his name was done by his son (and granted by the Minister), it was prince Carlos who initiated all subsequent fights in court. None of them would have happened had prince Carlos not opposed his son's rights under the Dutch nobility law.

 

[Somebody]

But did he need to take a stance in court on his son's application? I'm not familiar with the court procedure in that case, but from your prior reply I had gotten the impression it was his own decision to become involved.

I am not sure I see the contradiction. In the case of his son, his son claimed a title based on him being his father, while Carlos' stance is that those that are born out of wedlock should -according to the house rules- not have titles related to his house. Therefore, when upon turning 18 Hugo decided he wanted take up his father's titles and name, Carlos fought this decision in court.

However, maybe I don't understand the case of Amélie sufficiently, did she (or her father) legally apply to become a princess de Bourbon de Parme? And if so, based on which nobility laws? If she is just using this title 'socially' (which I assumed), I do not necessarily see a reason for Carlos to publicly become involved unless specifically asked to comment.

(Her French wikipedia-page does not include the title of 'princess', only the surname 'de Bourbon-Parma; and yes, I am well aware that it isn't the most trustworthy source but still).

Prince Michel recognized her as his daughter, who assumed the surname "- of Bourbon-Parma" and the title of "HRH Princess". The Head of the House of Bourbon-Parma can personally decide whether or not to grant the title to children born out of wedlock, however this is limited to very rare exceptions, because usually children born out of wedlock are not recognised. Apparently, however, Prince Michel has obtained permission to pass on his title to his daughter.

Did she truly 'assume' the predicate of royal highness and title of princess? A quick search only shows up her name without any predicate or title attached to it.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Did she truly 'assume' the predicate of royal highness and title of princess? A quick search only shows up her name without any predicate or title attached to it.

I don’t believe there was a predicate or style attached just Bourbon Parma as her last name de Bourbon-Parma

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I don’t believe there was a predicate or style attached just Bourbon Parma as her last name de Bourbon-Parma

Did she truly 'assume' the predicate of royal highness and title of princess? A quick search only shows up her name without any predicate or title attached to it.

In this interview she answers a question about the responsibilities of being a princess.

https://www.lejdd.fr/Culture/Amelie...a-famille-est-au-chateau-de-Versailles-752815

I have also seen her referred to as a princess in other news articles, and I don't see why they would do so if that was not her preference, though it seems she published her books as Amélie de Bourbon Parme.

If she is just using this title 'socially' (which I assumed), I do not necessarily see a reason for Carlos to publicly become involved unless specifically asked to comment.

So your hypothesis is that Carlos sees fit to publicly voice his views when an out-of-wedlock child applies to take on the family title/name legally, but not when they "only" use it socially?

 

[Somebody]

So your hypothesis is that Carlos sees fit to publicly voice his views when an out-of-wedlock child applies to take on the family title/name legally, but not when they "only" use it socially?

Yes, when his son applies to legally take the title and name, he considers it his responsibility to fight that practice that doesn't fit with his house laws. Would he not do that he would lose EVERY right to ever speak towards who should or should not have the title or which marriages to approve resulting in their children either having or not having titles of the house of BP etc. So, yes, I fully understand why he felt the need to act at that point while not choosing to make public statements (like the count of Paris) on other non-legal/binding cases (we of course don't know what goes on behind closed doors: he might be rather clear about his stance without doing so in the open).

Of course, we see other royals be 'weak' towards their own children and 'hard' towards others - but in Dutch culture, it is very important to show that you do not give your children preferential treatment (if you'd have to choose: rather the opposite).

 

[tihkon2]

However, the Dutch courts did NOT agree with Carlos and his son is a prince in the Dutch nobility if I remember correctly.

 

[iceflower]

Princess Amélie as a writer herself attended the book signing and book prize event at Ephemeral Bookstore in Paris:


** Pic ** pdv article **

 

[MarieAmelie_95]

Prince Carlos and Princess Annemarie, Duke and Duchess of Parma and Piacenza, will visit the former Duchy of Parma from September 21th to September 24th, as they do every year.

Source/Informations: CarlosdeBorbon.com

-----

On July 8th, Prince Carlos and Princess Annemarie attended the religious wedding of Prince Amaury of Bourbon-Parma with the noble Pélagie de Mac-Mahon of Magenta at the Cathedral of Saint-Lazare d'Autun, Saône-et-Loire, France.

Sources/Photos: Point de Vue, Histoires Royales, Paris Match, Instagram, Facebook

-----

Also on July 8th, Prince Carlos and Princess Annemarie attended the festivities and reception for the wedding of Prince Amaury and the now Princess Pélagie at the Château de Sully, Saône-et-Loire.

Sources/Photos: Paris Match, Instagram